The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Defense and Tactics => Topic started by: fullautovalmet76 on February 06, 2009, 10:02:37 PM
-
I didn't know if this belonged in another forum, but I thought it might apply here.
I have read that the 230 gr. .45 ACP round is well suited for self defense. The reason is that it has enough mass to penetrate different types of clothing to hit the vital spots. On the other hand, I have read that a 185 gr. .45 ACP is better because it has enough velocity to do the job. The same goes for 9mm rounds. Note: I am referring to JHP rounds in all of these examples.....
In terms of self defense, what type of round do you think is best and why? Or does it matter; should I shoot regular ball ammo and forget about the trick ammo? I have an opinion on this but I want to hear what everyone else has to say before I jump in with what I think. I look forward to some interesting discussions..... :)
-
I use 230 gr. JHP. It may not drop them on the spot but it should make them stop doing what I shot them for, that's all I care about. If they decide to do something else I have to shoot them for I've got another mag to cover "plan B".
-
I've been looking at various makers and I've come to the conclusion that I'm going to buying DoubleTap ammo for all my defensive needs. They load the execellent Speer Gold Dot in a variety of loadings, but I'll just list the loadings for the .45 ACP and 9mm (the source of the date is their website).
Gold Dot loadings for .45 ACP (they claim all of their .45 loadings are "just shy of a +P rating!")
185 gr. JHP 1225fps - 616 ft./lbs. - 5" 1911
200 gr. JHP 1125fps - 562 ft./lbs. - 5" 1911
230 gr. JHP 1010fps - 521 ft./lbs. - 5" 1911
They also produce a FMJ 230 gr. loading and a FMJ-FP 230 gr. loading, both of which have identical velocities and energy to the GDHP.
For the 9mm Gold Dot loadings (all of which are +P rated)
115 gr. JHP 1415fps / 511ft. lbs. from a G17
124 gr. JHP 1310fps / 473ft. lbs. from a G17
147 gr. JHP 1135fps / 421ft. lbs. from a G17
They also produce a 147 gr. FMJ-FP with identical velocity and energy to the GDHP.
The best part about DoubleTap ammo is that they sell their ammo in real quantities! They package their ammunition in 50 round boxes instead of 20 round boxes. And instead of charging you $1 or $1.50 per round they charge about $.61 for the 9mm and $.70 for the .45 ACP.
Also, if you can't decide what .45 loading to get, choose the variety pack. You choose any three of the five loadings for about $100. They also make a couple variety packs for their 10mm loadings as well.
My DoubleTap ammo is on the way to me. I don't work for the company or know anybody who does, but if it is as they say, I'll be very happy. Their 230 gr. GDHP is currently on back order, but the president of the company (Mike McNett) let me switch out the GDHP for the FMJ-FP since it has the same ballistics and bullet profile for purposes of function/controllability testing. Execellent customer service.
http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/index.php
-
Good side by side comparison based on known investigated shootings.
Works for all calibers:
http://www.handloads.com/misc/stoppingpower.asp?Caliber=18&Weight=All
The relative penetration difference in 185gr to 230gr is roughly an inch. Diameter is from .62" to .78" with 80 to 96% 1 shot stops.
The data for the 9mm is also interesting from the 115gr all the way to the 147gr.
IMHO, the smaller the caliber, the faster the bullet.
-
I carry 185 gr Golden Sabers basically for the ounce or so of weight savings in a full load of nine rounds. Balistics aren't that much different though the lighter load shoots a little flatter. I won't load +P in a scandium frame, it tends to beat the crap out of the light aluminum alloy. The guns rated for it, I just don't see the point.
-
Look, all offer good advice, but IMHO, if you pick a round in your chosen caliber( 230gr. Fed HST, for me ;D) with a good reputation within law enforcement in your area and more importantly, is reliable in your pistol, you will be fine.
I've subscribed to both schools of thought in the past, but have come to the conclusion that accurately placing your shots is much more important than what caliber and bullet style, as long as it is not ball, even the 'legendary .45 FMJ'.
Learn to shoot it well and it won't matter if it is a 115gr. 9mm, or a 230gr. .45, as long as you place your shots well.
Good luck.
j.
-
I agree with the shot placement...that advice is king.
I don't know if it is just the weight since it may pass through some pieces parts not transmitting all the energy if it's FMJ. I think size of hole makes a difference too. I use Federal's expanding full metal jacket in my 45's...they consistently expand to approx. 0.75" and dump energy, as recommended by some LEO trainers down the road.
I've got to brag on Doubletap too. I buy their 10MM ammo...which by the way...why not get heavy and fast in a round larger than a 9 and a bit smaller than a 45? My 10MM defensive round is a 200 grain full power Doubletap with 1,200 to 1,250 fps of muzzle velocity. Make sure if you use Doubletap in a 10 MM that you dump the normal 18 lb spring many of the 1911 clones use and bump up to that 24 lb spring to protect the frame.
-
I go along with jc451911's last comment. If you are going to put a gun in your self defense plan you must know how to use it and be comfortable with it. It isn't about how big, how fast or how many, it is about where you put them. Hey, I'd rather see someone put three .22lr on target than bounce eight 230 gr .45's off the fixtures around the room.
-
I like heavy bullets...
Just like motors, there is no replacement for displacement.
-
I like heavy bullets...
Just like motors, there is no replacement for displacement.
TAB, your avatar is definitely BIG BLOCK!!! :o :o
-
I like heavy bullets...
Just like motors, there is no replacement for displacement.
Kewl saying....I'd like to think we're rubbing off on you.
-
I built my 1st 460 at 15 for a jet boat... ;D
if you think shooting is expensive... try owning a true 100 mph boat, been there done that, never again.
-
I would be wary of selecting defensive loads based on velocity. Velocity is only part of the equation. Too much velocity can be a bad thing. Bullets are designed to function at certain velocities to achieve a desired effect. Too much or too little velocity can impair their performance. Unfortunately, many manufacturers just jack up the velocities and we, the uneducated consumer think faster equals better. Not necessarily. In many cases you are paying a premium for the extra velocity ammunition, not to mention the extra recoil and muzzle blast associated with the increased velocity with no real increase in performance.
The 230 gr., 45 acp, at 850 fps has been putting men in under the Earth for nearly 100 years. Put simply, it works. Find a good modern hollow point design at 850-900 fps and put in through a man's chest and you'll have a very effective self defense load without the excess recoil and muzzle blast.
As for which caliber to use? I usually fall back to this bit of wisdom I picked up many years ago....Bigger holes bleed faster.
USSA-1
-
The 230 gr., 45 acp, at 850 fps has been putting men in under the Earth for nearly 100 years. Put simply, it works. Find a good modern hollow point design at 850-900 fps and put in through a man's chest and you'll have a very effective self defense load without the excess recoil and muzzle blast.
USSA-1
+1...........see signature line.
-
Learn to shoot it well and it won't matter if it is a 115gr. 9mm, or a 230gr. .45, as long as you place your shots well.
That statement just about covers it. A 22lr will kill just as well as a .45 if placed correctly. Now, in the real world, I want as much lead hitting my target as possible, and a 230gr 45 will change the mind of a BG quite quickly.....as my CCW instructor told our class many years ago......you keep shooting until the BG no longer feels he is a threat.
I personally carry 185gr Federal Hydro Shoks in my Kimber CDP II 4", with another advantage of CTC grips.
-
I have always carried big bonded hollow points preferably Gold Dots , regardless of manufacturer of the round. 230 and 180 gr. But I will as soon as possible switch to the Federal Expanding Full Metal Jacket rounds, superior penetration and expansion with no chance of plugging and barrier penetration superior to any hollow point retaining weight. (no I dont work for Federal).
-
Agree with USSA-1 and those who talk about heavy bullets and shot placement. For years a prevelant theory has been that a slow heavy bullet does a better job than a light fast moving bullet. Elmer Keith who was instrumental in the development of the 41 mag and maybe the 44 mag always favored a heavy bullet but faster than calibers at that time. Used to read about hunting the dangerous animals of Africa where a slow heavy bullet was favored over lighter faster bullets due to energy that they hit their target with.
-
As for which caliber to use? I usually fall back to this bit of wisdom I picked up many years ago....Bigger holes bleed faster.
USSA-1
+1
Might I add, Two holes (entry & exit) bleed twice as fast as one.
-
I am a firm believer that any premium ammo from .38 Spl through .45ACP will end a fight with authority IF you put the BB or BB's where they need to go. I exclude .41 and .44 Magnum from "everyday carry" because in whatever platform you plan to launch it from, recoil will be fierce, horrendous, traumatic, and down right yucky. That being said...I do have a certain fondness for a 180gr LSWCHP .44Spl cooking along at about 850fps from my old 4" Model 24. That is a load I also use in my Rossi Big Loop Trapper carbine. They make GREAT camping guns.
But heck...I always have some sort of Glock handy. Except for the Glock 18 (see lust in my eyes) I have one or two of each model. I actually PREFER the 9mm and the .45 as my all time favorites, though I do admit a funky fondness for my Glock 38 in 45GAP as a carry gun. My wife says it is just because I like to be different. Yeah...maybe so.
But still...I don't want to get shot with a .22short if I can help it. It hurts like hell and makes you cuss, and yell, and say bad things about people's mothers. I know, I have seen me do it.
-
OK. Here's my input (finally ;D):
I tend to follow the research of Dr. Martin Fackler, who was a trauma surgeon in the U.S. Army in Vietnam and pioneered research on modern ballistics. I believe he is the creator of the standard by which the FBI uses to judge ballistic qualities of ammunition- the 10% gelatin test.
Note for the lighter/faster crowd: I know Fackler disputed the findings of Sanow and a major controversy raged for many years. This post is not about that and does not seek to reignite it either. I have not read Sanow's work so I can not make any informed comments about his work anyway.
Fackler's basic premise is that heavier bullets at sufficient velocities perform better than lighter, faster bullets in a given caliber. For example, he maintains that 147 gr. 9mm is a better round than a 115 gr 9mm round, though the heavier round has a lower velocity.
I have included a link (http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf) on handgun wounding effectiveness from the FBI, circa 1989. Though the technology and the science regarding ballistics has advanced since then, there are some basic principles outlined in this document that transcend time. Part of the research done by the agent was based upon Fackler's research.
USSA's point about 45 ACP is dead on- bigger holes make them bleed out faster.....I spoke with someone you all would immediately recognize about this issue and he told me that he knows of those "in the know" who use plain old ball ammo for their self defense round. Why? Because it works! They don't worry so much about overpenetration as that they want the round to penetrate enough to do the job....Interesting stuff....
Thanks!
-
I use Win white box 230jhp because of two simple reasons. One they are reliable and they are accurate in my two .45acp handguns (Kimber 1911 and XD). I can only hurt them if I hit them. I tried 9 different types and this was the one that worked best for my particular firearms.
-
The definitive answer to your question is likely in the book "Stopping Power" written by Evan Marshall and Edwin Sanow. I have always been a "heavy and slow" guy but they build a very convincing case for light and fast. You need a certain level of speed and energy (not mass) for the HP bullet to perform, basically to reach the bullet's performance threshold. You want the bullet to shed its energy early in the penetration in order to incapacitate quickly by destroying internals. It is not about bleed holes. It is not about lethality either, it is all about incapacity. You want one shot incapacity and you want it quickly. If you think bleeding out is the answer, while he is bleeding out, he will shoot you ten times.
If it was about heavy and slow, the 230 gr 45 ACP would out perform the 69 gr 223 but it doesn't. Think speed and energy, not mass. Reportedly, Jim Cirillo, gunfighter extraordinaire, developed a line of SD ammo from his street experience that has a 45 ACP load with a bullet weight of 90 grains, e.g., traveling at over 2000 fps with muzzle energy of more than 825 ft-lbs. Penetration 9 inches. The bullet shape looks like 230 gr ball. Recoil is similar to standard 45 loads, I am told by one who shoots and carries the load. Compare those performance numbers to your current 45 SD load. I have been carrying 200 gr Black Talon loads.
I also thought you wanted max bullet weight retention but now not so sure. You want the bullet to frag and penetrate only in 8 to 12 inches, not the 12 inch minimum FBI penetration standard. Hell, I am only 12 inches deep at the chest. FBI shooting and civilian self defense shooting are different because of their need to shoot into car metal, class, etc where SD requirements are much less stringent, usually close, frontal and softer targets. If the bullet fragments, there is much greater potential for internal damage, like arteries being severed and organ damage. You want all the energy expended in the target. The Border Patrol standard is reported to be much more realistic and relevant.
This is an awesome, detailed, substantiated read that is solely about about "one shot kill" street cases and performance, with info about lots of handgun calibers, some rifle and shotgun loads.
If you want to know all about this subject, the theory, testing and street results, don't take my word or your friend's word, read this book. Then make up your own mind, Heavy and Slow or Light and Fast because you will likely know the answer for yourself.
Road Hog
-
The definitive answer to your question is likely in the book "Stopping Power" written by Evan Marshall and Edwin Sanow....It is not about bleed holes. It is not about lethality either, it is all about incapacity. You want one shot incapacity and you want it quickly. If you think bleeding out is the answer, while he is bleeding out, he will shoot you ten times.
As I said in the beginning, I haven't read their book so I can't really comment on what they say. As for one-shot stops: other than hits to the central nervous system, I believe that is a myth. Everyone talks about it, but I can't find any evidence for it.
I think I'm going to take Dr. Fackler's word over your's on the issue of energy transfer and one shot incapacity. In the articles I have read by him he basically states that you want a large enough wound channel, that penetrates deep enough to cause the most damage.
If it was about heavy and slow, the 230 gr 45 ACP would out perform the 69 gr 223 but it doesn't.
You are comparing apples to oranges. I'm talking about pistol cartridges, the majority of which are traveling under 1500 fps. Rifle cartridges travel 2 - 3 times the speed of some of these cartridges, so the comparison is meaningless.
FBI shooting and civilian self defense shooting are different because of their need to shoot into car metal, class, etc where SD requirements are much less stringent, usually close, frontal and softer targets.
I'm not so sure about this either. On the show "The Best Defense" in episode 6 or 7 they show scenarios where one might have to shoot through a windshield to stop an attack. Keep in mind this show is targeted for civilians, not law enforcement or the military.
If you want to know all about this subject, the theory, testing and street results, don't take my word or your friend's word, read this book. Then make up your own mind, Heavy and Slow or Light and Fast because you will likely know the answer for yourself.
You're right I should read the book to add to my understanding of the subject.
-
I think I'm going to take Dr. Fackler's word over your's on the issue of energy transfer and one shot incapacity. In the articles I have read by him he basically states that you want a large enough wound channel, that penetrates deep enough to cause the most damage.
Bare in mind that "deep enough" doesn't mean through. As Road Hog pointed out, he's 12 inches at the chest, so 11 inches of penetration would lodge against his spine.that's enough to reach every organ in his body. So I go with slow and heavy.
-
You are comparing apples to oranges. I'm talking about pistol cartridges, the majority of which are traveling under 1500 fps. Rifle cartridges travel 2 - 3 times the speed of some of these cartridges, so the comparison is meaningless.
Of course I know about the comparison (pistol/rifle) but is it really meaningless? It seems very consistent with the stated premise that light and fast trumps heavy and slow relative to incapacitance. Because it is a rifle cartridge does not mean it reacts to or creates different laws of physics? If it is about bullet speed and energy (transfer), then that is what one could base their decision on as to what to carry in a handgun cartridge for soft targets, i.e., the highest speed with the greatest muzzle energy. One of the most effective street rounds (with lots of history and case studies) is reportedly the 125 gr in 357 Mag and the 125 gr 357 Sig duplicates that Mag performance and not surprisingly, has one of the highest one shot incapacitance percentages.
One should carry and shoot only what they have confidence in for a SD load. Please understand, with today's bullet technology, I feel there are probably very few poor cartridge and bullet choices. And naturally, accuracy trumps everything.
Great topic and discussion though.
Road Hog
-
This discussion reminds me of an article written a while back (can't remember by who). And, I agree that the Marshall & Sanow stats are flawed. Mainly because their test data is limited to shootings where only one shot was fired. I don't know about you guys...but I'm going to keep shooting until the threat stops, or I run out of ammo.
In my last CCW class, I had somebody talk about the famous “Marshall & Sanow One Shot Stop Statistics” and about how this student was going to use a 97% round instead of a 92% round.
Okay, if you aren’t familiar with these, basically these two guys, Marshall & Sanow, supposedly looked at a ton of actual shootings, where people had been shot once in the torso with a bullet, and then they measured what percentage of those resulted in an immediate stop, i.e. immediate cessation of hostile action.
Then they published their work, and all bullets were rated. Immediately, people who were not given to critical thinking, accepted these percentages as gospel, and you could hear people arguing at gunshows and on the interweb about how they’re more tactically saavy because their handgun load was a 94% stopper, while yours was a meager 82% stopper.
Over time the flaws in this stuff became apparent, and luckily we don’t have to hear about it as often as we used to. But it still pops up once in awhile.
Let’s break this down as to why this idea is massively flawed. First, assuming that their data was not fabricated (because of lot of the shootings weren’t documented by anybody other than them), this wasn’t exactly scientific data. It wasn’t like they lined up 300 death row prisoners, shot each one in the chest with a different brand of .45 and then watched the clock until they quit kicking. Supposedly these were incidents from actual gun fights.
And since gun fights by their nature are fluid, dynamic, and always suck, we can also assume that they’re going to be different. To illustrate:
Shooting 1: Subject is 105 pounds, soaking wet. Pacifist. Faints at the sight of his own blood. His book club calls him “Todd.” Has never been in a violent encounter in his entire life. Plays Barbara Streisand records to get “charged up”. Gets shot in the abdomen with a Brand X .32. Bullet lodges in the belly button. Barely breaks skin. Subject faints because of loud noise. .32 Brand X = 100% stopper.
Shooting 2: Subject is 310 pounds of prison hardened muscle. Has a spider web tattooed over his whole face, and his friends call him “Death Train”. Subject 2 is high on coke, crack, meth, elephant tranquilizers, No-Doze, and Cherry Pepsi. While robbing a bank during a tri-state killing spree, Subject 2 engages in a running gun fight with police and is shot through the lung with a Brand Y .45. Subject 2 then carjacks a busload of handicapped nuns to escape. Later has friend who flunked out of Vet School remove the bullet with a pair of barbeque tongs. Subject 2 then goes to 50 Cent concert. Brand Y .45 = 0% stopper.
So from this illustration, you are far better off carrying the Brand X .32 than the Brand Y .45.
Now obviously, that is flawed, because of the nature of the subjects. Death Train and Todd are not equivalent in any way. Death Train would EAT Todd. However, they’re both people that got shot in the torso with a single round, therefore they are valid M&S stats.
Then you’ve got people shot in the heart vs. those shot in the gut. Both bad, but one is usually fatal in a matter of seconds by the basic facts of biology. However, both are one shot stops. So if the guy carrying an inferior round, is a better shot, that round gets a better percentage.
And then my personal favorite, they disregard multiple shots. Because if you shoot the guy twice, then that doesn’t count. I don’t know about you guys, but anybody worth shooting is worth shooting five to seven times. I’m not going to shoot the guy once, and then wait around to see what percentile he falls into. My gun is going to sound like a friggin’ jackhammer until he decides to leave me the hell alone.
Once again, before you jump onto any Gun World bandwagon, exercise a little critical thinking.
-
Bigger holes bleed faster.
Amen to that USSA-1.
-
Your 9mm MIGHT expand, My .45 will NEVER shrink ;D
-
Heavy and fast. Relatively speaking.
With training, practice, repeat,...... and shot placement.
When asked to summarize a recent gunfight, Bill Hickock (known for his short answers) was quoted at saying simply, "He missed. I didn't." Bill correctly concluded that his point was made and that additional details would be superfluous. There is no substitute for surgical accuracy, no matter how exciting the situation. "Lots of shooting" doesn't end fights. Hits do!
John Farnam
-
Hey guys, Everytime we hear some new information about how a new load performs, it upsets our ideas we thought were set in stone ! I'm referring to Heavy and Slow as in 147 JHP Fed. HST in 9mm. , and others in this grain size that have come on the scene lately. The HST 9mm, at what we would call slow velocity, penetrates well and expands to the size of a Nickel . So much for light and fast as in Cor Bons ,and other +P+ 115 JHPs . Another sleeper I've found in expansion and penetration in my own gallon water jug test , is Fiocchi's 147 JHP in their catalogue as 9APDHP @ 1000fps. . It expands and penetrates really well ; the jacket and core stay together and the results look like Rem. Bonded Golden Sabers .
-
For PD I have always preferred a big, slow round. That is way the .45 acp is so effective. The only thing is penetration and I will (for now) believe your 9mm test so I would add that to the .44spl and .45acp and colt rounds that work great for PD.
(heck, just look at the damage those old muzzle loaders did in the Civil War!)
-
10mm
-
One of the most effective street rounds (with lots of history and case studies) is reportedly the 125 gr in 357 Mag and the 125 gr 357 Sig duplicates that Mag performance and not surprisingly, has one of the highest one shot incapacitance percentages.
Road Hog is right on the money.
Real life experience at a Level 1 Trauma Center in Dallas, where we saw lots of gun shot wounds, led to one conclusion.The .357 Magnum is the ultimate handgun round with the optimal blend of speed, size, penetration and energy transfer for a 1 shot stop. Every other argument about heavy and slow vs light and fast is moot. I know that this thread started out asking about which .45 .acp round to use. I simply contend that if you want the best self defense round, get a .357 Magnum.
Ask any big city cop that has seen the results of gun shot wounds, of varying calibers, and see what they have to say on the subject. If they have had a long career and they or their colleagues have used their weapons in the line of duty, ask them about the effectiveness of the varying calibers that they and their colleagues have fired. There seem to be several current and ex law enforcement personnel on the forum. I would love to hear their real world experience. Fortunately most cops that I have met have never had to shoot anyone, but they do see gunshot wounds and the results. I got to know many Dallas cops in the ER, if they had to have one caliber as a "man stopper" they invariably will pick the .357 Magnum.
Regardless of any scientific studies, ballistic gel comparrisons or milk jugs penetrated, I'll take real world examples every time.
I also agree with everyone on this thread about shot placement. I have seen lethal .22 and .25 caliber wounds. Not exactly legendary powerhouses, but every bit as deadly with good shot placement.
Finally, regardless of how much "one shot stopping power" that you have, shoot until the threat is eliminated.
Just my personal thoughts, but I'll bet that I have seen more actual handgun wounds than most folks on the forum and than most folks in general including the military and law enforcement folks. During my time in Dallas there were about 2000 officers on the force. They certainly weren't all present for every shooting. On the other hand our Emergency Department saw close to half of all shooting victims in the city. Level 1 Trauma Centers get the major trauma. There are only 2 Level 1s in Dallas and at my last count only 13 in the entire state of Texas (4 of which I believe are military). I'd love to hear from TABs girlfriend about her ER experience in California.
-
I don't know if Terminal Ballistics as Viewed in a Morgue has been referenced yet but it is an interesting read from a thread on a different site.
As with anything on the internet - Caveat Emptor
http://www.gunthorp.com/Terminal%20Ballistics%20as%20viewed%20in%20a%20morgue.htm (http://www.gunthorp.com/Terminal%20Ballistics%20as%20viewed%20in%20a%20morgue.htm)
-
Ichiban,
Thanks for the link. Most of these guys are youngsters and have seen very few .357 wounds. When they did they all agreed with it's legendary manstopper reputation.
My Dallas ER days were from 1980 to 1987. Wheel guns were still very popular.
See the comment from the morgue kids: Ok, let's try to answer a few more questions that have popped up since I got back. Again, as has been seconded here, the .357 has a well-deserved reputation as a man stopper, and it seems to be regardless of what load is used from what I've seen. Unfortunately, we seldom get them anymore, but when we do it just confirms what others have said about its stopping power. Ah, if only all handgun calibers were this effective...
-
depends on the situation
large (for me) is for short range and big holes
where the .223 is for more precise shooting while it still tumbles around and causes massive internal damage
-
Ichiban,
Thanks for the link. Most of these guys are youngsters and have seen very few .357 wounds. When they did they all agreed with it's legendary manstopper reputation.
My Dallas ER days were from 1980 to 1987. Wheel guns were still very popular.
See the comment from the morgue kids: Ok, let's try to answer a few more questions that have popped up since I got back. Again, as has been seconded here, the .357 has a well-deserved reputation as a man stopper, and it seems to be regardless of what load is used from what I've seen. Unfortunately, we seldom get them anymore, but when we do it just confirms what others have said about its stopping power. Ah, if only all handgun calibers were this effective...
Was Allan Jones at the Dallas Crime lab when you were in Dallas ? would you have run into him, he was their bullet match guy.
-
First, an awesome top 'o the gat to twyacht to getting quotes from both Wild Bill and John Farnam in the same post!
I've been carrying a 9mm for years now, usually loaded with Corbon screamers. Maybe I'm getting old, or maybe times are getting wierder, but the .45 in the semi and .44 Special in the wheel gun are looking better and better to me. On my last road trip, I carried a .44 Special revolver most of the time loaded with 200-gr SilverTips. I have always carried 230-gr when I carried .45s. Corbon has a 230-gr JHP +P, but it's pretty snappy to shoot.
All in all, I'm leaning toward going back to the .45 across the board...an FNP45 replacing the SIG226 as the bedside gun; maybe a Para Carry LDA for daily carry replacing the Carry 9. It'll be a big step for me, and I'm going to need some more trigger time with the guns before I make a final decision.
Michael B
-
I don't know if Terminal Ballistics as Viewed in a Morgue has been referenced yet but it is an interesting read from a thread on a different site.
As with anything on the internet - Caveat Emptor
http://www.gunthorp.com/Terminal%20Ballistics%20as%20viewed%20in%20a%20morgue.htm (http://www.gunthorp.com/Terminal%20Ballistics%20as%20viewed%20in%20a%20morgue.htm)
Ichiban,
Thanks for the link. Most of these guys are youngsters and have seen very few .357 wounds. When they did they all agreed with it's legendary manstopper reputation.
My Dallas ER days were from 1980 to 1987. Wheel guns were still very popular.
See the comment from the morgue kids: Ok, let's try to answer a few more questions that have popped up since I got back. Again, as has been seconded here, the .357 has a well-deserved reputation as a man stopper, and it seems to be regardless of what load is used from what I've seen. Unfortunately, we seldom get them anymore, but when we do it just confirms what others have said about its stopping power. Ah, if only all handgun calibers were this effective...
http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=6801.0 ;)
-
First, an awesome top 'o the gat to twyacht to getting quotes from both Wild Bill and John Farnam in the same post!
I've been carrying a 9mm for years now, usually loaded with Corbon screamers. Maybe I'm getting old, or maybe times are getting wierder, but the .45 in the semi and .44 Special in the wheel gun are looking better and better to me. On my last road trip, I carried a .44 Special revolver most of the time loaded with 200-gr SilverTips. I have always carried 230-gr when I carried .45s. Corbon has a 230-gr JHP +P, but it's pretty snappy to shoot.
All in all, I'm leaning toward going back to the .45 across the board...an FNP45 replacing the SIG226 as the bedside gun; maybe a Para Carry LDA for daily carry replacing the Carry 9. It'll be a big step for me, and I'm going to need some more trigger time with the guns before I make a final decision.
Michael B
I would like to officially go on record as offering to provide a good home to all those 9mm guns that Michael Bane no longer wants around. PM me for my FFL's shipping address, Michael. (http://www.smileyx.com/smilies/cool0020.gif)
-
The CorBon 230 gr JHP +P has been my carry round for about 2 years now and out of my Nighthawk, is easily the most accurate round I have ever fired. The only range target I have ever kept in my life....1 box of 20 CorBon rounds the first week I got my Nighthawk shot at 15 yards offhand made one ragged hole the size of a half dollar about 1 inch low left of dead center...only one flyer, my first shot, about 4 inches away. I always finish off a range session with a magazine of the CorBon load and it always proves far more accurate than the Blazer Brass, American Eagle or Winchester White Box that I practice with. Out of a government sized 1911, the recoil of the CorBon 230 gr. JHP +P is not bad either.
Great decision Michael to go with the bigger loads. I find myself carrying the 45 more and more with occasionally my 686 S&W with 357 magnum JHP...just gives greater peace of mind than my .380 PPK. Finally decided to get a Glock and waiting for it to arrive...a 30 SF so I can stick with the CorBon 45s. Just couldn't go with a 9 mm and being in New York with the ridiculous 10 round magazine capacity rule, why not carry 10 + 1 rounds of 45 instead of the same number of rounds in 9mm. The Glock 30 SF fits the bill perfectly for those living in restrictive states, IMHO.
I've been carrying a 9mm for years now, usually loaded with Corbon screamers. Maybe I'm getting old, or maybe times are getting wierder, but the .45 in the semi and .44 Special in the wheel gun are looking better and better to me. On my last road trip, I carried a .44 Special revolver most of the time loaded with 200-gr SilverTips. I have always carried 230-gr when I carried .45s. Corbon has a 230-gr JHP +P, but it's pretty snappy to shoot.
All in all, I'm leaning toward going back to the .45 across the board...an FNP45 replacing the SIG226 as the bedside gun
Michael B
-
Was Allan Jones at the Dallas Crime lab when you were in Dallas ? would you have run into him, he was their bullet match guy.
Tom,
I just saw the street cops in the E.D. I did not have an in with the P.D. other than the deep regard and respect that I had for the street cops doing a tough job in a sometimes very tough city. I considered several of the cops to be "friends at work" and wished that I didn't have a need to see them so often.
-
Oh, He has a column in Shooting times about ballistics and thing he learned from examining spent bullets, like how an out tell if your revolver is out of time, that kind of thing.
-
Excellent choice CDR and have been pondering on whether to purchase one myself. I love .45 ACP. But after attending a Glock Armorer Class this week I was informed of the ballistics of the .45 GAP. I am re-considering whether I should purchase one in that caliber?
-
Excellent choice CDR and have been pondering on whether to purchase one myself. I love .45 ACP. But after attending a Glock Armorer Class this week I was informed of the ballistics of the .45 GAP. I am re-considering whether I should purchase one in that caliber?
I love glocks, so I can reccomend the pistol. The .45 GAP looks great on paper as well. But do you really want an expensive exotic round? Your call, but if I wanted a 40 cal Glock I would with .40 S@W or .45 ACP. The rounds are proven, cheaper and a lot easier to find.
FQ13
-
big and slow.....just like me ;D
-
Wow, I think we have a new record, 5 pages and still on topic ;D
-
Interesting on the 45 GAP. I looked at that as well but figured such a round would be virtually impossible to find and if found, as expensive as hell. I think if I was going to move away from 45 ACP, which I won't be, but didn't mind paying for the exotic round price differential, then I would probably select the 10mm Glock. Tremendous ballistics IMHO.
-
That is the draw back cause 10mm and .45 GAP ammo is hard to find and the cost is a bit more. I do agree with the .40 and .45 for Glocks FQ13 and that is what I mainly carry.
-
The .45 GAP has about the same velocities for a given bullet weight as a .45 ACP. This does not include .45 ACP+p loads, just standard pressure.
The bullet diameters and the bullets themselves are the same as those used by .45 ACP cartridges.
Because the cartridge length is shorter, the .45 GAP has less space for additional powder. The increases in pressure could be bad.
So, given the same bullets and velocities, terminal effect would be the same. It then comes down to price and availability. Not everybody makes guns in .45 GAP so you would be complicating your ammo pile while losing versatility. I just don't see it as worthwhile.
The only benefit I see to GAP is if you have small, childlike, completely un-manly hands and can't grip a real gun. ;D
-
I second that Junkie i dont see a need for 45gap. My dad and my gramps have always carried a 45acp no matter what, i on the other hand like 10mm. I might be crazy but 10mm works great in the field and for protection. I know some of you like its odd but its worth the effort to load.
-
Right up there with the .41 magnum. Great round, tough to get, expensive if found, and for those that reload, it can work great.
The GAP and 10mm are a good round, it comes down to "marketability".
Sonny Crockett had the Bren Ten, and tried back in the eighties,...(realistically it was out there in the real gun world to rival the super dee duper LEO rd., which was the 9mm. back in the 80's).
It developed a following, just like the .45GAP, but never hit the mainstream like the .40 S&W. The 9mm is here to stay, the .45ACP will never go away, and the great rds. that they are, .41, GAP, 10mm, even to an extent the .32 Magnum, in the Rugers.
They are fine rds. but may be impossible to get if the SHTF.
So either stock up, reload your own, or stick to a caliber that will be "less" harder to get or be bartered for.
Just like 7.62X39, it will always be around "somewhere".. 10mm, and GAP, I doubt it.