The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Defense and Tactics => Topic started by: bucktracker on February 16, 2009, 04:23:57 PM
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I own two compensated glocks a 20 (10MM) +32 (357sig) that I carry fruequently.
After watching the best defense where Rob explained tactics regarding car jacking and shooting through the drivers side window I thought about what a flash in the face from a compensated weapon would feel like. I hadn't considered tight quarter shooting prior to purchasing the weapons, and those type of scenerios seem plausable and most likely.
Should I get rid of those guns for carry use? Would loss of night vision result, even with a tactical light and low flash propellents, more so than a non-compensated pistol?
PS: what is your primary carry gun
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You might think about replacement barrels instead. Selling and or trading is an option.
Richard
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At night it can also blind you for a short period of time.
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Try shooting your carry guns and rounds in the dark if possible. I mostly use an indoor range for pistol work and lighting is about half way between daylight and night time. Since I don't have the power to change the lighting, I evaluate my carry loads for muzzle flash in medium light. But since the lighting is consistent, I can shoot multiple loads and compare them for muzzle flash.
I use Speer Gold Dots (124gn. 9mm +P) in a Sig P229 which produces an acceptable amount muzzle flash. I'd love absolutely zero muzzle flash, but that's just not going to happen with a load worth sending to a BG. I'm actually more worried about being blinded by a reflection of my Surefire flashlight than I am of being blinded by muzzle flash with my current load.
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Try shooting your carry guns and rounds in the dark if possible. I mostly use an indoor range for pistol work and lighting is about half way between daylight and night time. Since I don't have the power to change the lighting, I evaluate my carry loads for muzzle flash in medium light. But since the lighting is consistent, I can shoot multiple loads and compare them for muzzle flash.
I use Speer Gold Dots (124gn. 9mm +P) in a Sig P229 which produces an acceptable amount muzzle flash. I'd love absolutely zero muzzle flash, but that's just not going to happen with a load worth sending to a BG. I'm actually more worried about being blinded by a reflection of my Surefire flashlight than I am of being blinded by muzzle flash with my current load.
Sig, have you tried Hornady TAPs? Seemed to have almost no flash when I fired them. Box of 9mm should be about 17 bucks.
As to the original question, a compensated pistols are not really designed for SD work. Yes, it will cause more visible flash and will add more noise also. Flash in the face in close quarters is also a possibility. Fire from the hip in ultra close situations would not be pleasant... :(
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Good question....
1. I've seen lots and lots of people shoot fast without the compensation. So, I think its role in a carry gun is overplayed.
2. I think the flash issue is overplayed as well.
Those thing said, the realities of potential injuries and distraction (especially when shooting at contact distances as can very plausibly happen) advise AGAINST compensated guns for defensive purposes.
The replacement barrel is a good option for those of you who are reconsidering guns you already own!
-RJP
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I have not fired a compensated pistol fom a close retention position but am guessing the gases could burn you or possibly set clothing on fire. I did burn myself once with a beretta shooting out of a SUL position. Ouch!
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Personaly I have found that most wheelguns seem to have a larger muzzle blast than a compensated auto. I am not sure if that is because of the B/C gap or whether I am just more sensitive to it? My beloved K-frame .38 special wheelguns have a much more pronounced muzzle flash at night than my XD or Kimber 1911 in .45ACP.
Go shoot and find out what effect it might have on you, just please be safe (eye and ear protection). I am not a big fan of changing what works unless there is very good reason to do so.
And in answer to your last question here in IL we lack a CCW law or open carry so I can carry nothing. That being said my Kimber Warrior 1911 and a Remington 1875 replica in .45LC come with me when my family goes camping/traveling.
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Great input from everyone, I have the oppurtunity to shoot in low light and will give it a try.
As for the compensated pistol I'll leave those for fun only, and consider a new defense gun(s)
(dont tell the wifey) ;D
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Goss,
Keep in mind that we are not solely concerned with the size of the blast in the case of contact shooting, it is also the direction of that blast.
-RJP
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I got a Glock 23C in a trade some time back. I didn't see the "need" for a comp'd 23, but it was a SMOKIN' deal, so I traded an old Smith & Wesson Model 19 for the pistol and 10 standard capacity mags.
I didn't like shooting it with the comp'd barrel because I got a lot of residual powder to the face, so I bought a standard G23 barrel, dropped it in, and the issue was cured.
One advantage I THOUGHT I might get out of the barrel swap proved to be true. The lighter slide moves at greater velocity, and the gun seems to run faster. The pistol is also a bit lighter to carry, even though weight on a Glock isn't heavy...every ounce counts.
That being said...I noticed, while firing at night with the Surefire light attached an ON....the muzzle blast was nearly 100% eliminated in the enhanced light from the light mounted on the pistol. Food for thought.
The barrel swap option, seems to be the best option for you. I mean, if you like your pistols, and shoot them well....why get rid of them?
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The idea of getting a new gun for defense is a good idea if you have the money to do so, you might like something in .40S&W if you like your 10mm. IF money is an issue, the barrel swap might be the better way to go for you. And as far as not telling the wife, in my opinion she should learn to shoot any gun you have proficently, in the case that you are wounded and unable to continue or in a scenario where both of you need to defend yourselves at the same time.
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I only own 1 comp'd pistol, an EAA Witness .40, it works fine, no issues except the dirty front sight is a pain to clean.
I haven't really considered contact close firing and now agree it could be bad.
Next gun show, a new barrel should be available.
Thank you.
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Goss,
Keep in mind that we are not solely concerned with the size of the blast in the case of contact shooting, it is also the direction of that blast.
-RJP
Hello all ltogether,
I'm new to the boards and have just been pointed to this thread by my friend Pepper.
Just a short introduction, my real name is Mike and I live in Germany.
I've had my year of military service in the '90s and have been active in the reserve forces for about a decade now, doing mostly infantry and range training recently, my current "MOS" is as an S6-Squirrel. Fortunately I am located near one of the few remaining US Army garrisons here in Germany and thus have ample opportunity to cross-train with different Army branches.
I earn my money as an engineer in the private industry and do some additional security contracting for some companies from time to time and thus try to keep myself up to speed as a CCW citizen (one of a few in this country...).
I'd just like to confirm and stress Rob's statement.
On Saturday we did a CCW-Class and I had a chance to compare a Glock 19C and a Glock 17C to the regular Glock 19 (the one I usually carry) while doing zero-distance drills.
Besides the regular gas backblast returned from the target you could also clearly notice a blast directed upwards and even behind the eyepro, coming from below. Some particles made their way to hit the lower parts my cheeks. It didn't really disturb shooting, but there definitely is a certain risk of injury to the eye. Neither heat nor flash posed any problem to me or my clothing.
You should know and take it into consideration when choosing to use a compensated gun.
On the pro-side the compensated gun definitely reduces felt recoil and muzzle rise, improving recovery time. I am used to fire non-compensated guns and can do so pretty fast, but the 19C definitely gives a certain edge. If you really need this edge is also part of the consideration process when choosing a new gun.
As I already own 2 regular Glock 19 I am considering to get a 19C for another CCW-Permit I am working on. The possibillity of "shutting off" the compensator by using a second barrel without compensator cuts is a neat Idea. So probably I'll be going that way just to have the choice.
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Good stuff, Carlos....
If you are coming to IWA next week in Nurnberg, PM me....
-RJP
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Just in case it went unnoticed (haven't found a function in the message system to verify that) -> PM sent. ;)
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Id endorse Magnaport for the big bore woods gun but for street carry my concerns would be velocity loss and inadvertent gas cutting.
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Talk to those who have been involved in a shooting and you will learn that recoil, loud noise and in some cases, muzzle flash is not felt by the shooter. The incredible adrenalin dump into your body will block out most outside sensations except those required by your body to survive. It would be a good idea, I think, to not have a ported pistol too close to your face in a car, because of glass fragments and burning powder. Perhaps for driving at night it would be a good idea to wear some sort of clear safety glasses, and of course your cool dude sun glasses during the day. 8)
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On Saturday we did a CCW-Class and I had a chance to compare a Glock 19C and a Glock 17C to the regular Glock 19 (the one I usually carry) while doing zero-distance drills.
Another class, some more observations.
Compensated Glocks, especially the model 17 seem to be a bit more prone to FTF stoppages due to limp-wristing.
I assume that this is caused by the compensator counteracting the unlocking process of slide and barrel (being a Browning Petter principle based system) by consuming to much energy to ensure a secure feeding later on.
While shooting normally those Glocks don't show any sign of a problem and are just as reliable as Glocks usually are. We experimented a bit with this phenomenon and compared non-compensated versions next to their compensated brethren. The latter produced FTFs well before standard Glocks did while being shot limpwristed.
Did somebody notice this also?
I think it is something to be aware of and to make sure to rigidly lock the wrist while shooting a xxC Glock zero distance.
It's kind of embarrasing to have to clear a FTF in knife fighting distance... :-X
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Carlos,
YEs, the compensation robs some of the energy that is supposed to push the slide backwards, which loads the recoil spring with energy, which then uses that energy to strip a round and chamber it. The 17 has a relatively heavy slide compared to the frame, which means that inertia isn't helping the process of the slide moving more than the frame. Combine these factors with the awkward/less supported positions encountered in contact shooting and you have a tendency for more Malfs.... adding lightweight/underpowered training ammo adds to the problem.
-RJP
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With typical Law Enforcment Ammuntion IE Speer Gold Dot, Federal HST, Winchester Ranger, you will not receive the bright white muzzle flash that sporting ammunition might exhibit.
Typically the high energy flash resistant propellants that are used in LEO ammunition produce a dull orange red flash.
As Mr. Pincus stated, my concern would be the direction of the gas ejecta.
You may have gasses, burned and un burned propellant directed towards your eyes.
Additionally, in a muzzle contact or near muzzle contact shot, the super sonic, super heated gas plume can in and of it self cause a devistating conical wound.
The over pressure entering the human body can burn and rupture organs and push soft tissues past were the natural elasticity will allow.
I carry a Sig P229 in .357 Sig.
When shooting with friends, the fellows typically will not stand closer then six feet to my right and left, because of the muzzle blast!
My two cent would be, carry your current platforms unless you can receive a "whole" trade to the non comp versions and invest in plenty of training ammunition, with the load that you use/carry.
Be sure that you are as proficient as you can possible be with your choice of weapon.
John
Firearms Instructor
Tactical Instructor
Less Lethal
Tactical Team Member
United States Department of Justice
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I never use copmensators on any of my handguns because the blast that close could burn me and light up my clothing. I carry a G26 9mm filled with tap fpd ammo and hardly notice any flash when it fires.
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Thank you John, Welcome to DRTV. The comp. pistols for SD have been debated here many times, and any non orthodox shooting stance, could cause injury, temp blindness at night, and what you described.
In regards to ammo, I have seen some difference in flash with the only ported pistol I own which is an EAA Witness .40.
(http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm182/twyacht/EAA40002.jpg)
It is a sound pistol, that functions without fail. Federal and Speer exhibit more gas/smoke, while the Magtech and Winchester White Box, have more flash, (daylight shooting only)...but very prominent.
It is not my primary SD carry pistol, by any means, but is a reliable pistol with any .40 caliber ammo.
I need to get a non comp'd barrel for it.
In any other stance, firing a ported/comp barrel could be very dangerous for the shooter.
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(http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/8943/glockcompensator.jpg)
(http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/5288/glock7.jpg)
I have both the Glock Model 21, and the 21-C, (Compensated). Both are equal handguns except for the compensated barrel. I use the compensated 21 as primarily a range gun. The above photo shows why. If I fire the pistol in an indoor range with handloads with Unique powder, the flash is quite brilliant. In bright sunlight you can barely notice it. The standard Glock 21 is what I usually carry. Bill T.
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Great pic Bill. Perfect demonstration.