The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Handguns => Topic started by: MHarvey124 on February 21, 2009, 10:59:08 PM
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I've been shooting for about a year now but mainly just for fun at the local range with my S&W MP 9mm. Never really cared about home defense. It was never really a priority. Now I am thinking about it after I started watching The Best Defense and other shows on the outdoor channel.
Now normally I've just been shooting Winchester 9mm luger FMJ loads but from what I've read here and on other sites that kind of round really isn't the best option to use for home defense. Can anyone recommend a JHP and grain that would be good in my full size MP 9mm that would be good for home and self defense. I do live in a townhouse connected to another unit and from what I can tell the walls are pretty thin. Not sure if that will make a difference.
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Federal Hydro shok or Hornady TAP are both highly recommended.
Another thing you can do ( this will help if you actually NEED to use it) Find out what the local cops are using and get the same stuff.
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I live in Condo myself, so I too have thought about overpentration of the walls. It's too bad there isn't a magic bullet that doesn't penetrate drywall, but punches right through everything else.
Glaser Safety Slugs claim to be a reduced risk round, but I don't think either of the two configurations they make will have adequate penetration on a bad guy. They are designed to break up quickly and dump all of their energy. The trouble is, all the little pieces they break into don't penetrate very far, which makes them safe for everybody but the person defending his or her life or family. Still, they're an option if you think they'll work. (dakotaammo.net)
I use Speer Gold Dots in the 124gr +P loading. They're bonded so they will penetrate like no tommorrow. But they also have a reputation for expansion, so it should stay in the BG when properly used. Any misses or ADs are going to be legally problematic if an innocent person gets hurt, but I'm not aware of any bullet that be frangible against drywall only, and mushroom in the middle of the BG, and not be manufactured with pixie dust.
Since I'm sure someone will begin to argue bullet choice vs. legal liabilities, I would be interested to know if someone is aware of any legitimate cases in which:
1) the resident lawfully fired upon a home intruder
2) the bullet used in the resident's weapon was of a pistol caliber
3) the bullet penetrated the walls of the home
4) the bullet struck an innocent bystander
5) the bystander filed a lawsuit against the lawfully acting resident (the resident was firing at an intruder, not shooting the bystander)
6) The bystander won the lawsuit and/or a settlement
7) if conditions 1 through 6 apply, then the case applies to this thread.
I know I'm being particular, especially since I didn't start this thread, but like I said someone will begin to comment on collateral damage as a result of bullet choice. To back up their argument, they always speak in generalities about what could/maybe with right attorney happen, and not what has actually occured. And that's annoying bs.
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Cor-Bon has some good rounds also.
Richard
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I’d recommend getting at least 50 rounds each (min.) of the top quality stuff; Federal, Remington, Cor-Bon, Speer, etc. and running them all through to see what your gun likes to eat the best. I did this with my .40 S&W and was amazed at how each brand was a little different. I shot most in the seated / rested position trying for close groups, watching muzzle flash and felt recoil. In my XD the Remington Golden Sabers (165g) seemed to be the ticket. Once you find one or two, then run another 100 rounds or so thru it in normal fashion; standing, two handed, one handed, different distances, etc. to see how it still holds up. I for sure would stick with JHP and a name brand, not reloaded or off brands. Finding out what the local LEO utilizes seems like a good idea too.
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I'd go with Tombogan's suggestion.
As far as the construction of the townhouse goes, you could take a coat hanger, straighten it out, poke a hole in your sheetrock (just as if hanging a picture), probe with the coathanger to get an idea of what is behind the sheetrock. If all you find is a hollow cavity or fiberglass insulation and sheetrock on the other side you may want to look for a place with solid partitions.
Solid partitions will not only be an advantage if you fire a stray shot, but it will protect you in the case of a neighbor with a stray shot, home invasion through the wall, and most commonly ... Fire. From helping my mother find apartments over the years I have learned that in new construction the rent will be higher for lots of concrete, but once a building passes the 15 year point in age there is basically no difference in price for one with concrete floors and divisions between units. I know moving is no fun (this is the reason I don't move - every year I'm helping another family member move and that fills my need), but if you are concerned enough to protect yourself and your family this could be a good step.
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1) the resident lawfully fired upon a home intruder
2) the bullet used in the resident's weapon was of a pistol caliber
3) the bullet penetrated the walls of the home
4) the bullet struck an innocent bystander
5) the bystander filed a lawsuit against the lawfully acting resident (the resident was firing at an intruder, not shooting the bystander)
6) The bystander won the lawsuit and/or a settlement
7) if conditions 1 through 6 apply, then the case applies to this thread.
Does the situation really hinge on #3? I would think striking an innocent bystander is striking an innocent bystander, regardless of whether it was cause by over-penetration, missing, accidental discharge, or shooting through a wall as a result of any of these. The question is not much different from what rounds to use when you are shooting in a public place.
Conceptually, though, it's another magic bullet question, asking "what bullet will give me <insert contradictory expectations here, like kill the bad guy, stop hairloss, pick up after my dog, have no recoil, and still be cheap enough to practice with at the range 3C a week>"
I see this question of what type of building you live in and what rounds may or may not penetrate the wall as no different from any other situation. Remember the episodes of TBD where they mentioned making sure you have a solid backstop and the more more recent one of making sure no one else was behind the target? Since you can't know who is on the other side of the wall, it's important that you have a solid backstop
It's basic gun safety: make sure what you are shooting at and what is beyond it. A drywall or plaster partition, even a fire rated one with a couple layers of drywall, isn't a safe backstop. If you don't have a sufficient backstop (which in residential construction, you're talking poured concrete, multiple wythes of brick, or a bookcase facing the right direction with a lot of books on it), you can count on possibly hitting someone you did not mean to.
The real question is not "what round will magically protect possible innocents?" It's "what can I do to avoid accidentally shooting innocent neighbors?" That mostly means installing an alarm, having a cell phone by the side of the bed, buying decent locks (ok, now with the basics out of the way, we can talk weapons), selecting a good safe room, pre-planning your lines of fire, and spending enough time practicing ("war gaming") in your house that you know what a "safe shot" in your house is.
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Good discussion!
The key point is you need to do the drills we showed in THE BEST DEFENSE, scope out your possible/probable lines of fine in your condo and KNOW YOUR BACKSTOPS for each of those lines. LaserGrips are handy for this exercise because you can see precisely where your point of impact is going to be.
If after the exercise I still had backstop problems — that is, the design of my condo left me with a bag of bad options — I might default to the Glasers, although I agree on their human penetration issues. You guys know I carry a 9mm myself, but this is one of the situations where I might at least consider a bump up in gun, specifically to a .45 ACP loaded with Glasers, for a little more umph. Alternately, I might add a shotgun to the mix, and inexpensive 870 or Mossberg, and load it with birdshot as my primary home defense weapon...
Michael B
PS: I carry either Hornady TAPS or Corbon DPX in my carry gun. I'd rull out DPX for your situation.
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http://www.handloads.com/misc/stoppingpower.asp?Caliber=15&Weight=All
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Thanks for all the great advice guys. Really appreciated.
Ironically enough after posting this question I ended up watching the latest episode of The Best Defense discussing the importance of knowing whats behind your target and moving into a position better suited for stopping a stray round and making sure bystanders will not be in the line of fire. Thanks for heads up on watching the show Mr Bane. As soon as I am able to scrap up enough cash I'm going to have a set of Crimson Trace lasers on order.
Hottrockin: Your suggestion is really good. Unfortunately money is kind of tight right now so picking up 50 rounds of different loads may be a bit costly. I do agree this probably is the best way to figure out what is going to work best with each individual's firearm.
I'll probably try getting some Hornady Taps or Federal Hydrashock for the time being.
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If it applies, some condo/apts.etc,... units are separated by a firewall/ burnwall, rated in hours. Some even have masonry in between units for noise and vibration.
Unless your an end unit, you could always ask the prop mgr. if the bldg. has burnwalls between units. They are thicker than standard sheetrock.
Rob Pincus has done a great job demonstrating different calibers and penetration issues in residential construction materials.
He's got a great DVD showing several examples, up to a 12g. shotgun rd. (Think it was #6 BirdShot) Lots of little balls at close range make a devastating wound, but not enough to over penetrate through and through the next room, etc,...
My "at home" SD round is a .357 Federal 110gr. JHP. It has less flash than the 158gr. rds.... Lighter bullet, with good expansion.
Its still a .357. ;) In Semi-Auto, there are several options. Remember bullets may fail to expand, but a .45 never shrinks. ::)
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Yea I do live on an end unit so that helps a little bit but I've still got surrounding strips of townhouses almost on every side of my unit. I went and picked up some Speer Gold Dots at my local Gander Mountain. They were out of almost everything now. Figured it can't hurt to have something other than FMJ rounds.
Didn't hand cycle really well so I'm going to take a few rounds to the range sometime this week to check 'em out.
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quote,...
Didn't hand cycle really well so I'm going to take a few rounds to the range sometime this week to check 'em out.
Did you buy the M+P 9mm new?, range time with varied rounds should "loosen" things up. My Walther PPK/S .380 did not cycle Speer Gold Dots well at first after I bought it. Little fluff & buff and range time makes it like butter now.
Yet my M+P .40 will take whatever ammo is in the mag from day one. My FN9 did not like Federal Hydra Shoks until I put 150-200 rds. shoot,clean, lube, repeat. Now it cycles everything.
BTW, I heard Gander Mountain, keyword MAY, be bought up by Bass Pro Shops/Outdoor World.
Let us know. Practice, practice, practice....The M+P is a great platform, you shouldn't have any "cycling" issues if you let her run at the range.
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In my day job I'm in construction. From contractor to arch/eng inspector to spec writer I've got about 30 years in now, and I know that a LOT of people don't know much about where they live. Your backstops can vary quite a bit.
Without patronizing anyone, most residential walls are made of wood or metal studs (vertical) with gypsum board spackled and sanded. THAT's all you get. If a bullet hits a stud there's a good chance it will stop. BUT... Most residential buildings have plywood on the outside of the studs, under the siding, but not all. I've seen many tract-built places that have gyp board inside, studs, FOAM, and vinyl siding. You could probably shoot a K-Mart toy arrow through a wall like that. They often put plywood on the corners, but a REALLY strong person or a guy on crack might be able to bust right through your wall if he didn't hit a stud. Of course, same with a bullet.
The good news with townehouses and condos is if they are in rows, most state building codes require fire walls between each unit. These are often concrete block walls which makes a pretty good backstop. But some use shaftwalls, which meet the code for fire separation, but basically it's a minimal frame with one to two inches of gyp board on each side....not a good backstop.
If you have older homes...many from the early 60's on back to the 30's, you probably have wood siding (often covered by vinyl or asbestos) and the sheathing beneath (where the plywood would be on a more modern building) is often old school 1X...7/8" thick lumber. The older houses werent' much on insulation, but they often have a harder gyp board or lath and plaster, which won't stop a bullet, but it will slow one down, espectially an expanding jacket, hollow point, or frangible. You've got a decent chance of not harming your neighbors in a structure like that if you don't hit it "WRONG"...the bullet will get stopped, deflected, or at least slowed down, so maybe it goes across the street and dents your neighbor's lawn jockey instead of blowing his head off.
From the 30's back you've probably got wood siding, 1" thick sheathing beneath, NO insulation, and lath with plaster that can be as much as an inch and a quarter thick. Same as the category above.
In our neighborhood we all watch out for each other(at least the locals do) and self-defense also means neighbor defense. Like MB says, you should plan your defensive positions based on your backdrops, and approach home defense from those positions. If you've got exposure problems though, think about the physics. You want to destroy enemy flesh and bone, but not friendlies...
In NJ if I shoot an armed father-raper in my home with hollow points, that is malicious intent and I might go to jail. I can OWN them and shoot them, but if I shoot a person with them, I'm being malicious by using the hollow point, even though it might stop in my wall instead of going across the street and killing my neighbor. So you have to size everything up.
If you can use them, hollow points will not penetrate building materials as far as hardball ammo will. Expanding jacket should also fatten out even more and slow down. OR...what we keep at home is soft point...just lead. It will certainly hurt the bad guy but maybe it will flatten out enough in the wall to fall harmless out in my front yard. There's always frangible too. I don't know how bad the penetration statistics are with frangible ammo, but it's got to at least HURT the hell out of the bad guy when you lay a few rounds into him.
The kind of planning and practice that Michael talks about all the time is the only way to minimize the risks, but many of us are forced by circumstance to use ammo that may not be considered the "best" defense ammo in the industry.
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twyacht: My MP9mm was bought brand new. I've had it for over a year now. I try to get to the range at least twice a month and usually run 50 rounds through it. It cycles perfectly fine with your standard FMJ (be it Federal, Remington, Winchester). Like I said, I definitely need to get the Speer Gold Dot to the range this week to see how it cycles during an actual live fire. Hand cycling the stuff wasn't too bad but I could definitely feel the tip of the bullet hitting the feed ramp. Still chambered though.
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I find Remington Golden Saber 124gr +P works very well. Non +P is not that much slower.
Also this round is known to feed better than most HP
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I find Remington Golden Saber 124gr +P works very well. Non +P is not that much slower.
Also this round is known to feed better than most HP
It's also a reasonably accurate round in my experience. The version you're most likely to get your hands on is the regular, commerial version, as opposed to the law enforcement bonded offering. Only real difference is the ability to withstand penetration of auto glass and still work on target.
One the one hand, I like bonded bullets due to their ability to go through auto glass and hold up pretty well. This is handy when trying to defend yourself from a carjacking.
One the other hand, they're also supposed to go through drywall, especially rounds used by the FBI.
Does anyone know anything about Glaser Pow'rball ammo or the new Critical Defense ammo from Hornady (re: penetration of drywall)? I'm thinking those two might be better options than bonded bullets for apartments/condo/townhomes.
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Rob Pincus has done a great job demonstrating different calibers and penetration issues in residential construction materials.
He's got a great DVD showing several examples, up to a 12g. shotgun rd. (Think it was #6 BirdShot) Lots of little balls at close range make a devastating wound, but not enough to over penetrate through and through the next room, etc,...
On RJP's last demonstration he used a #9 shot. He also tested the Glaser Safety Slug. The DVD mentioned, "Combat Focus Shooting & Home Defense Tips" can be found here >>> http://www.icestore.us/servlet/the-DVDs/Categories (http://www.icestore.us/servlet/the-DVDs/Categories) .