The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Defense and Tactics => Topic started by: Rob Pincus on February 22, 2009, 01:47:04 AM
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This is an important topic that was started by a question about TBD on another forum. Specifically, the viewer was asking about why we show live fire drills instead of F-o-F with training guns.
As Airsoft guns become more and more common on training ranges, I find the the overall value of "Force on Force" is degrading because of poor scenario development and non-structured training practices result in training that doesn't deserve the title "Reality Based".
For your thoughts/comments:
As for "force on force", there are several ways to do "force on force"... and a big difference between Scenarios and Drills. Simply using sim guns (any type) and saying that the training is "reality based" doesn't cut it for me. For example, I don't believe that student-on-student scenarios are nearly as valuable as scenarios run with trained/prepped/scripted role players. 2 guys squaring off and waiting for a buzzer to see if "shooting and moving" makes sense is a game, not a scenario or even a drill... much less a premise for defensive tactics development. Choreography, anticipation and human behavior often combine to create self-fulfilling prophecies when you have student-on-student drills like that. Not to mention that the lack of actual recoil makes it significantly easier to make rapid follow up shots while moving.
I've done a lot of force on force and a lot of dynamic live fire in realistic settings (moving, reactive and interactive targets). I can assure you that there is a huge performance degradation when you both move fast enough to be significantly safer and shoot live fire.
(take a look at this video and the linked podcast for more on that: Shooting in Motion)
What you are seeing in the scenario sections of TBD are very much like the most effective force on force training scenarios that we can run for students. Of course, in this case, even the "student" is a role-player.
The drills that we share on TBD (like the "find a safe backstop" drill) are designed to be "take aways" that a typical motivated and safe viewer can recreate and practice at the average square range without a huge investment in equipment, a ton of prior training or a lot of unreasonable risk. F-o-F drills fail on the equipment note and suffer from the "no trained role-players" on the second.
There is no doubt that it would be harder to find a safe backstop in a dynamic situation. That said, the drill matched the scenario, which was certainly plausible and realistic, which we presented in the convenience store.
It is very hard to realistically simulate situations and balance speed, precision, recoil, safety, movement, etc.....
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I think you're right, that a lot of force on force stuff out there is more like a paintball match.
I think to get the most benefit, it almost needs to be more like a class/lab environment, where the participants are getting instruction at some point and feedback on their actions during the event. Personally, I'd love to see one where the event was video recorded and the participants (who presumably were reacting to situations created by the instructors) could see what they did and be able to learn from it.
As many people have pointed out in different threads, the gun handling skills are just a small part of the scenario. I'd love to see training with some awareness, avoidance, de-escalation, and open hand defense involved as well, leading to a shoot/no-shoot decision.
Of course, that's no fun for the folks who just like to run-and-gun.
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Seems to me that REALISTIC FoF training would require a set (Ex. parking area with a few cars) and an instructor as BG, then you bring the student over, tell him "your car is the one all the way in back, go get in it dealing with anything that may occur". Then maybe The "BG" role player only asks the time and wanders off, Maybe he sits it out, maybe he tries to rob the student, lets face it 99.99999% of the time we carry we don't need our firearms, so the times when the "BG" DOES attack will generate a realistic surprise. The problem with this is that it takes TIME. This is not something that could be fit into a group class over a weekend, time constraints require concentration on reaction techniques so the student knows going in he will be shooting.
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Personally, I like and use FOF primarily as a dynamic skill development tool. My favorite use of it is in contact-distance shooting drills and empty-hand-to-weapon transitions where there is a lot of dynamic interaction with your partner before you draw and shoot. That type of action can't be simulated well with a static target.
Where FOF is very limited is in "registering" hits and their probable effect. This is where a trained--or at least experienced--role player makes a huge difference in providing realistic variables between quick stops and multiple-shot failures to stop.
I think airsoft has a lot of value, especially when it comes to practicing true 3-D shooting skills with movement. Without a 360-degree range, that stuff is hard to do. With airsoft, you can do some very valuable training that fills in the blanks in your life-fire practice. And that training can be FOF, on 3-D targets, or a combination of both.
Stay safe,
Mike
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I'm with you two out of three (which ain't bad.....):
1.The Extreme Close Quarters Counter Ambush programs that we've been running since '01 are definitely the best use of sim guns that I've been involved in. That course consistently drives home great lessons for the students who engage instructors at real speed with minimal protective gear with and without sim guns.
2. I generally only use marking rounds for the first or first couple of shots for students. After that, the rounds are rubber/non-marking if I can make it so. Similarly, we train roleplayers to go down when they are supposed to according to the scenario, regardless of the hits/misses. The learning points are scripted and not left to chance or improvisation.
3. But, when it comes to that shooting and moving, I still say live fire recoil is necessary to really get an understanding of what can be done under real circumstances.
-RJP
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Personally, I'd love to see one where the event was video recorded and the participants (who presumably were reacting to situations created by the instructors) could see what they did and be able to learn from it.
Ok, I've watched Personal Defense TV religiously. I wouldn't volunteer to get smacked around by Janich for nothing! He slaps like mules kick! Nope! That wouldn't be fun to be a guest/participant on their show.
My armchair education works well enough for me right now. The techniques they teach on the show I couldn't afford in any other type of instruction. As far as the hands on approach to personal defense training goes....I'll keep practicing with the wife. I think she enjoys slapping me around anyways! lol!
Good thread guys! Love the show, and the techniques your teaching. I too like the drills going from hand to hand, and transitioning to the gun. It's great stuff to know, and just like everything else; practice makes us better.
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Personally, I'd love to see one where the event was video recorded and the participants (who presumably were reacting to situations created by the instructors) could see what they did and be able to learn from it.
We do this quite a bit... In fact, I am about to put up a video clip with a dissection of the startle reaction that is typical when we set up the ECQT final scenarios.. I'll link in this thread when it goes live at the I.C.E. Video page.
-RJP
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FoF is great for training. The videoing of the event is even more important. Having the instructor as the BG is also very valuable to make the scenario as realistic as possible.
The other training of moving off the "X" with the figure 8 drill is fantastic. Have to head out to the desert to practice those kinds of drills down here in SoCal though.
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D-man,
Thanks.
My regional reps just did a class out at the Angeles Nat For at the Burro Canyon.... I was out there for one morning of an instructor course, it is a great facility. Not sure if they would let you Figure 8 on an average day, but it is physically a perfect place for it!
-RJP
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D-man,
Thanks.
My regional reps just did a class out at the Angeles Nat For at the Burro Canyon.... I was out there for one morning of an instructor course, it is a great facility. Not sure if they would let you Figure 8 on an average day, but it is physically a perfect place for it!
-RJP
I know that range VERY well as it is 20 minutes from my house! On most weekdays it could probably be done as things are pretty slow around there. Saw the Blog entry about the new instructors. Those smaller pistol ranges are perfect for it.
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There is one "force-on-force" option that hasn't been mentioned in this thread: video simulators. Companies like AIS make PRISim simulators that allow you to fire live ammo from your own weapon. There usually isn't much room for you to move in but otherwise these simulators offer compelling advantages:
1. You use your own ammo with your own firearm. This is huge and you can't do that with any live FoF training. Managing recoil and how you resolve unexpected failures to feed are two examples that can't be done with simunitions/airsoft.
2. Realistic scenarios with good actors and appropriate surroundings. Take a look around the room you're in right now. Chances are there's a lot of furniture, furnishings and other minutae of life "cluttering" the room. All of those objects take time to identify, can slow down your target/threat recognition or sight picture. Very few training facilities can "dress a set" that completely.
3. Many video scenarios have both threats and innocents at the same time. Not only do you have to determine if/when someone is a threat, you also have to consider angles of fire and making sure you don't cover/shoot an innocent.
4. (Almost) realtime shot analysis and software that determines where rounds hit and how targets will be affected. In one scenario I shot at a man wielding a shotgun. I knew my first shot was center of mass but the target didn't go down. The computer determined that round hit the shotgun stock and therefore wasn't considered a hit.
5. Post-scenario analysis allows you to replay video and see exactly where/when you hit.
Video simulators aren't perfect of course and there are some drawbacks like the limited movement I mentioned earlier. You can step off the "X" but can't move much more than that. Since it's "canned" video you don't have a choice regarding what you see or how the camera moves. And on the system I used there was a slight delay after shots fired for the appropriate reaction video to play. It can also be expensive. The simulator I used near Las Vegas cost $75 for a 30 minute session. But I think it was money well spent.
The most eye-opening aspect is #2 and #3 above. During scenarios the visual scene is just like real life--very cluttered and busy with multiple people doing different things all at once. Events unfold much quicker than you expect and you can get sensory overload trying to maintain tactical awareness of everything you see and hear in the scene. You're in a resturaunt and see a man draw a gun. You draw yours in response. As you acquire a sight picture did you notice a panicked female run towards the exit and cross between both of you? Do you try to hurry up your shot, wait until she's clear or not notice at all and hit her by mistake?
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Hi Friends,
This is my inaugural posting on this forum and I'll look forward to getting to know you all.
F-o-F with airsoft is just like ANY other form of training. You get out of it what you put into it. I run an Airsoft F-o-F workshop once or twice a year at the martial arts school where I teach. When I do, I plan "stages" that are usually more drill than scenario. In developing any particular stage, I try to pick one or two specific skills and build a stage around them.
Philosophically, I try to make the airsoft workshop part training and part structured play. (I'll recommend the book Deep Survival: Who Lives Who Dies, and Why (http://www.amazon.com/Deep-Survival-Who-Lives-Dies/dp/0393326152/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1236352559&sr=8-1) by Laurence Gonzales who does a great job explaining the role of "play" in learning survival skills . . . wolves, lions, bears and just about every intelligent wild animal all play to stay skillful when they fight.)
I ran a workshop just last weekend. I've posted a couple of video clips on YouTube. You can see the clips here:
Chuck's F-o-F video 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKdHIHsuZf8)
And
Chuck's F-o-F video 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GGJJK_jSfg)
Comments, questions, suggestions, expletives and exculpations are all welcome.
Again, I'm thrilled to find this forum and look forward to talking with you more!
Chuck
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Welcome Chuck. Lot's of great info here.
Enjoyed the youtube vid's. Would like to see them again with better lighting ;)
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Thanks for posting, Chuck...
You asked for thoughts, here's three:
1. Good for you and your guys for training and trying to find ways to do it in a realistic way.
2. Watch the "equal initiative" type drills between students... as noted earlier in the thread, I think they have limited value for defensive training.
3. Try to keep the "swinging at extension" to a minimum (your second clip).
-RJP
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Thanks for posting, Chuck...
-RJP
Thanks so much for the feedback, Rob. I really value your opinion.