The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: texcaliber on July 26, 2007, 05:53:16 PM
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I have been told by a few of my peers that the older SIGs with the folded slides are better than the newer Milled slide.... for no reason other than that was what they were told. Well I dont buy it. So, I am putting the question out to you folks. I know there is a better awnser than "some guy told me".
Tex
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... I know there is a better awnser than "some guy told me".
Tex
Why? Did some guy tell ya? ;D
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Why? Did some guy tell ya? ;D
WISE.....GUY.......errr......CAT! Now if you are done laughing at my grief, hows about a awnser? :)
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WISE.....GUY.......errr......CAT! Now if you are done laughing at my grief, hows about a awnser? :)
How's this;
In the early Seventies, SIG undertook the design and development of a pistol that could be easily and cheaply mass produced with modern technology. In order to save on the production costs, they entered into collaboration with the German firm of J.P. Sauer & Son. Before World War II, Sauer had been located in Suhl in Thuringia. After the war it moved to and reorganized in the Western Occupation Zone in Eckernfoerde in the state of Schleswig-Holstein near the Danish border. Specializing in sporting rifles and shotguns, Sauer made no sidearms since the end of World War II until the first of the SIG-Sauer pistols, the P220. Their contribution to the SIG-Sauer collaboration included a decocking lever that lowered the hammer to a safety notch, which first appeared on the Sauer Model 38, produced during the latter years of the Third Reich. The SIG-Sauer P220 used the mass production expedients pioneered by Sauer and other German arms makers as a wartime time cost saving measures. Thus the precisely made Browning breech locking arrangement mating the barrel lugs with recesses cut into a one-piece forged steel slide was replaced with fitting the squared rear shoulder of the barrel into the front of the ejection port cut out in the slide stamped out of sheet metal, with a separate breechblock pinned into it. Instead of machining the frame out of a tough steel forging, SIG-Sauer fitted a steel feed ramp and trigger housing into a frame made of a light aluminum alloy. Overall, the meticulous principles of Swiss precision gave way to the planned obsolescence of disposable hardware. In fairness, the P220 was developed for the armed forces and adopted in 1975 as the standard issue pistol of the Swiss army and the Japanese self defense forces. To be adopted, the P220 had to compete against the SIG P210 at 25 meters. But it fails to do so at the longer ranges, where the P210 excels.
More at http://www.p210.com/history/
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It is my understanding that a typical DOD contract has a service life clause in it on any weapons system. The M11 or Sig 228 was suppose to last 5000 before failure. I would guess the M9 has the same thing in its procurement contract. The P229 was designed with no such caveat.
I had 15000 rounds through mine before I turned it in without a problem but my understanding is that the M11 in service in the military are starting to be tough to maintain though not as bad as M9's. DOD bought non Beretta magazines (low bid) that fail at frequently.
Typically most pistols did not see 200 rounds a year through them.
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Attaboy Hazcat, I knew you had it in ya. Thanks man. I will have to set aside more time and checkout the link you gave me to find the awnser to the folded vs. milled being better.
Tex
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Typically most pistols did not see 200 rounds a year through them.
Heck I more do that out of several pistols (each) monthly. And I would bet Tex and DW do WAAAAAYYY more.
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This brings up an interesting point.
Now I typically shoot 400-500 rounds a month of 9mm or 45ACP ammo and 50-100 of 5.56 for practice.
Add 75-100 rounds at a monthly IDPA match.
What's everybody else habit?
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There was a VERY secret study done by a major firearms company about a decade ago that concluded most handguns were fired less than 100 rounds in their entire working life.
RE: Sigs folded versus milled...no difference one way or the other. I own both. The 210 suffers from the same problem as all the older guns, be they Thompson submachineguns or Colt Python revolvers...it was designed to be hand-fitted and basically supplied in what we would now consider small numbers. In fact, modern manufacturing techniques are better than much of the previous hand-fit guns...for every 210 or Python, there were a thousand other handguns that just didn't deliver the accuracy and reliability because of inconsistancy in parts and fitting. remember the 1911s of 20 years ago? We thoguht of them as the ultimate "kit gun," in that a gunsmith had to overhaul the thing before it would run. Now, the most accurate and reliable out-of-the-box 1911s in the world come with barrels that are fitted by computer-controlled machinery...notice I don't mention which one, because too many people would have a stroke.
BTW, take an out-of-the-box 210 and shoot it against an out-of-the-box 226 X-5...betcha the X-5 is every bit the long-distance gun the 210 was. Better ergonomically by a substantial margin. Cost about the same in equivalent dollars...
Michael B
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Heck I more do that out of several pistols (each) monthly. And I would bet Tex and DW do WAAAAAYYY more.
Thats a VERY SAFE bet on this end Hazcat.
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thanks for the info Michael, I guess there is the collection factor of the folded over the milled. But for me the only reason for a SIG is a working firearm. Now that my SC1911 is running flawless the 220 is a "left-it-gun" and I am finding it very hard to find a reason to shoot it.
As for: There was a VERY secret study done by a major firearms company about a decade ago that concluded most handguns were fired less than 100 rounds in their entire working life.
That firearm company never met me or my buddies. Come the winter months the round drops as to be expected but the fair weather tends to see around 200(compitition only) - 1,000(compitition,sight ins,pratice,test&Evals for customers/boss,ect....) rds. per week. And thats not including the dryfiring. (Need a math major to figure that # out) ;D
Tex
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This brings up an interesting point.
Now I typically shoot 400-500 rounds a month of 9mm or 45ACP ammo and 50-100 of 5.56 for practice.
Add 75-100 rounds at a monthly IDPA match.
What's everybody else habit?
I do about 150 or so 9mm, 100 or so 380, 300 45 colt, and 600 22 plus maybe some 30 (~50-100) carbine and a few (~20) 30-06. (and I am nowhere near as good as that should make me >:( )
Oh, and that does not count OPA.
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I just got off the phone with the "pier" that some guy told him "they were better". Well he was in a huff and started boohooing that MB doesnt know squat and the folded guns are W A Y ! better. "Now hold on" says I. I quickly informed/reminded him "who gets paid for his opinions" and it sure was not us. Next its an opinion. The only reason he didn't like it was it mirrored mine not his. Now, about the SIGs balance and better triggers out of the box. I have not a clue. I do now one thing, the newer SIGs are the only frames that the DAK triggers can be fitted to. So now another armed buddy who is prob. stroking his prefered gun, mumbling non repeatable sayings and slanders of me.
Oh well, can not please 'em all. 8)
Tex
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So now another armed buddy who is prob. stroking his prefered gun, mumbling non repeatable sayings and slanders of me.
Oh well, can not please 'em all. 8)
Tex
Yeah, I'd heard you were a miserable ol' cuss any ways so don't let it bother ya. ;D ;D
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::)WELL, I THINK YOU GUY SHOULD KNOW. REMEMBER YOUR FIRST SIG? IT LIKE A WOMAN. YOU TAKE GO CARE OF HER...AND SHE TAKE GOOD CARE OF YOU. IT IS LIKE A MARRIED. I BROUGHT MY MY FIRST SIG...P-220 STAINLESS. IN 1989. AFTER THE DEPARTMENT HAVE CHANGE. FROM MY COLT PHYTON 357 MAG 6 INCHES..I TOOK GOOD CARE OF HER. NOW I HAVE A NEW GIRLFRIEND. MY P-220 IS A LONG RELATION. NOW I OWNED 3 SIG? THE BETTER SIG...HAVE YOU WANT MAKE YOUR OLD GIRL ON TUNE UP AND BEEF UP. THAT I CALL A BETTER SIG!
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There was a VERY secret study done by a major firearms company about a decade ago that concluded most handguns were fired less than 100 rounds in their entire working life.
True story. I was hanging around my local gunshop when a "middle aged" man brought in a Browning 9mm to put on consignment for sale.
He bought it circa 1966 when things in this country seemed to be heating up into some kind of shooting confrontation.
When he put his kit out on the counter, it had the handgun in it's original cardboard box, a tin box cleaning kit, a 50 round box
of 9mm that was missing 5-6 cartridges and an empty spare magazine.
The original magazine was in the pistol and contained the missing 9mm cartridges which had brass discoloration marks where the cartridges had touched each other in storage for thirty years.
He purchased the pistol, loaded the magazine and never touched or fired it for over thirty years. Apparently he also never touched or fired any other weapon in that interval.
He wanted to sell it because his wife was afraid his grandchildren might find it in the closet and hurt themselves.
I never had a real chance to find out just what he had in mind when he purchased it or what background or experience he
had with firearms.
He seemed in all respects to be a completely normal individual. But the experience definitely went into my 'encounters of the odd kind' file.
Best regards,
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In a moment of weakness, I once swapped a P-220 with the European magazine release for a NIB .40 High-Power Combat. I wish I had that 220 back. I'm never really sure what "better" means in the context we use it. Sig went to the milled slides on the 229 from the folded slides on the 228 because they needed a beefier slide to handle the .40 S&W and the .357 Sig. Is a beefier slide better or worse? Is stainless better or worse? I tend to see these things strictly in terms of how the change effects functioning. My current 226 runs exaclty like my first 226 back in the mid-1980s...with boring regularity. It shoots the same, handles the same and seems to me to be less prone to rust than my old 226, which had been beaten pretty badly. Better...worse...shrug...
I can't for the life of me figure out why people occasionally get so torqued up over some of this stuff. I do like for my guns to work all the time and not ave parts fly off into space, but there are lots of different ways to accomplish that goal. I've had various people explain to me in excruciatng detail why MIM, cast, forged, milled, alloy, polymer, etc. parts all suck or are all the greatest thing since sliced bread. In reality, it's all a question of appropriate technology. All parts fail under enough useage. The trick is to use the right technology in the right spot.
BTW, I'm anticipating swapping my German P-225 for a P-250 9mm, because I really liked the way the 250 shot.
Michael B
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I can't for the life of me figure out why people occasionally get so torqued up over some of this stuff. I do like for my guns to work all the time and not ave parts fly off into space, but there are lots of different ways to accomplish that goal. I've had various people explain to me in excruciatng detail why MIM, cast, forged, milled, alloy, polymer, etc. parts all suck or are all the greatest thing since sliced bread. In reality, it's all a question of appropriate technology. All parts fail under enough useage. The trick is to use the right technology in the right spot.
BTW, I'm anticipating swapping my German P-225 for a P-250 9mm, because I really liked the way the 250 shot.
Michael B
Well said and in that light I am going to go and sell my Landon 225 so i can buy a M&P 9mm to shoot in SSP
Jon
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Well said and in that light I am going to go and sell my Landon 225 so i can buy a M&P 9mm to shoot in SSP
Jon
This reminds me of a HomerSimpson quote:"THATS CRAZY TALK MARGE, YOUR CRAZY"
;D
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Hey if I could I'd shoot 1000 rounds a day, but I blow all my money on food, gas, mortgage...silly stuff like that.
I'm just a guy that likes to shoot with a wife that likes to shoot, and we shoot as much as we can afford.
Without a job in the industry, sponsorships, friends with extra ammo, etc., we get off about 700 to 1000 rounds a month average between us- and she only shoots revolvers. Not bad for folks that still have the third kid in college and a few bad habits to boot. We like our vices and I'm partial to the occasional stray electric guitar as well.
I guess I throw the most in 9mm with my Sig 2022. It was my first (and only so far) Sig and it's still very much favored on range day.
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700 to 1000 rounds a month is GOOD for the average shooter.
I hear ya on the price of ammo! I buy 9mm reloads for about $10 for 50 rounds. But still I shoot more 22 than anything.
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I have owned a few sigs in my short time being legally allowed to own a pistol. I've had a 226, but have small hands, so i bought a 239 and found it unruly chambered in .40. the first sig i ever owned was a 229 in 9mm. best gun i've ever had. i sold it on trade for the 239 and i've been kicking myself ever since. i traded the other two in for a brand new 'used' sig 229 equinox. kinda like the gun the guy above was talking about. when i got it, it still had the first fire shells and spare mag still wrapped in oiled plastic.
lately with school and work i'm lucky if i get to the range once a month. being a broke college student doesn't allow for lots of range time. so i wait until dick's sporting goods is having an ammo sale and i buy bulk once or twice a year. then i drive to an outdoor free range and have fun until its too dark to see the targets.
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I can't see much difference performance wise in the two construction methods. All my SIgs are milled, but I have AK's with stamped receivers that have near 10K rounds through them without a stutter.