The Down Range Forum

Member Section => Tactical Rifle & Carbine => Topic started by: alfsauve on February 23, 2009, 09:41:27 PM

Title: Scope Adjustments - are they really necessary?
Post by: alfsauve on February 23, 2009, 09:41:27 PM: So there was this ad for a new compact, mil-dot, tactical scope and I checked it out. While looking over the specs something struck me as odd. I'd love a compact, or at least less than full size, mil-dot scope for my AR. Not real compact where I'm sacrificing optical quality, but at least a little trimmer/slimmer than typical. Well the this scope looked like it might fill that bill, but something kept nagging at me. And I've notice the same thing with other mil-dot scopes. It's those big target knobs. I may be the only one who finds this odd, but if I have a mil-dot reticle, then why do I need large complicated turrets? In their ad-copy they go on about, easy to set/reset the turrets, easy to adjust, and easy to "dial in" bullet drop and wind drift. But I don't want all that complication. I just want to zero my rifle at a known distance, then use the dots. That's the whole purpose of mil-dot, right?

Now if we're talking some other reticle and you want to use the turrets fine. But to me those turrets are useless for mil-dot, not to mention, they just don't look very good either. Like the scope has warts or something.
Title: Re: Scope Adjustments - are they really necessary?
Post by: PoorSoulInJersey on February 23, 2009, 09:50:06 PM: without the turrets, how do you plan to zero the rifle to the scope? It has to be adjustable somehow. They could go the little screws that the EOTechs use, but they have to have some kind of adjustment system.
Title: Re: Scope Adjustments - are they really necessary?
Post by: Texas_Bryan on February 23, 2009, 09:56:23 PM: He's talking about those monster, practical joke size adjustments. The ones that look like the knobs on a water faucet.
Title: Re: Scope Adjustments - are they really necessary?
Post by: alfsauve on February 24, 2009, 05:32:08 AM: Quote from: GameDev_Bryan on February 23, 2009, 09:56:23 PM
He's talking about those monster, practical joke size adjustments. The ones that look like the knobs on a water faucet.

Well said Bryan. I'm glad I'm not the only one who things they look just plain ugly.

DON'T JUMP ON ME and tell me all the great advantages. I understand what they do for knob tweakers. I just don't think they're needed if you are using mil-dot.
Title: Re: Scope Adjustments - are they really necessary?
Post by: billt on February 24, 2009, 10:36:52 AM: Quote from: alfsauve on February 24, 2009, 05:32:08 AM
I'm glad I'm not the only one who things they look just plain ugly. I understand what they do for knob tweakers. I just don't think they're needed if you are using mil-dot.

I agree. It's mostly a "tacticool thing". Another disadvantage is when you try to store the rifle in your gun safe, the big knobs interfere with the gun behind it. I can see it if your shooting in F-Class matches every weekend, but for 95% of shooters who have them, it is much like 4-Wheel drive. They don't need them. I just set up 2 new Savages with the Bushnell 3200 Elite Tactical 5-15X. They made zeroing in nice. I could do it sitting at the bench, behind the rifle. But once zeroed, they do nothing but sit there and "look cool". I had 3 guys come over to look at the rifles, all in their 20's. All of them asked about the scopes. They were in love! Bill T.
Title: Re: Scope Adjustments - are they really necessary?
Post by: tombogan03884 on February 24, 2009, 10:37:22 AM: Smaller turrets would be all you need for zeroing a particular load, I think it's more of that "Marketing" that is being talked about in the Remington thread.
Title: Re: Scope Adjustments - are they really necessary?
Post by: m25operator on February 24, 2009, 01:09:20 PM: I would say mainly, for shooting beyond 350-400 yards, you could sit down and do some math and figure which mil dot you could use at what distance with your caliber and load and many shooters do, how ever, you will find if your shooting using the dot as a reference, it will cover up more of the target than the crosshairs, dot size varies, but an inch is not uncommon, so add an inch for each 100 yards and at 500 yards, your dot could cover up 5", also the dot will not always correspond to the actual spot you want to hit, the distance between the dots is 3.6moa, so it can leave a lot of haggle room for aiming. Beyond 300 yards, factors like wind and mirage start to have an effect and you need to be able to adjust for that. Most people do not shoot at distance, and a point blank zero setting will take care of 90% of the oppurtunities. I do have a range that offers 1,000 yards, and on special occasions up to 1700, from an elevated platform a good 40' in the air, so adjustability is a must. As my old rifle coach used to say, very few people can hold an inch off hand for a wind change, but all of us can adjust the sight for it. ;D
Title: Re: Scope Adjustments - are they really necessary?
Post by: ericire12 on February 24, 2009, 01:48:21 PM: Quote from: m25operator on February 24, 2009, 01:09:20 PM
I would say mainly, for shooting beyond 350-400 yards, you could sit down and do some math and figure which mil dot you could use at what distance with your caliber and load and many shooters do, how ever, you will find if your shooting using the dot as a reference, it will cover up more of the target than the crosshairs, dot size varies, but an inch is not uncommon, so add an inch for each 100 yards and at 500 yards, your dot could cover up 5", also the dot will not always correspond to the actual spot you want to hit, the distance between the dots is 3.6moa, so it can leave a lot of haggle room for aiming. Beyond 300 yards, factors like wind and mirage start to have an effect and you need to be able to adjust for that. Most people do not shoot at distance, and a point blank zero setting will take care of 90% of the oppurtunities. I do have a range that offers 1,000 yards, and on special occasions up to 1700, from an elevated platform a good 40' in the air, so adjustability is a must. As my old rifle coach used to say, very few people can hold an inch off hand for a wind change, but all of us can adjust the sight for it. ;D

Ding ding ding.... we have a winner..... close the thread
Title: Re: Scope Adjustments - are they really necessary?
Post by: Overload on February 25, 2009, 09:27:42 PM: Wind adjustments?

Overload in CO
Title: Re: Scope Adjustments - are they really necessary?
Post by: Thanos on February 27, 2009, 10:13:25 AM: Quote from: alfsauve on February 24, 2009, 05:32:08 AM
Well said Bryan. I'm glad I'm not the only one who things they look just plain ugly.

Those aren't adjustment nobs, those are compensators.

For men with a small penis. ;)
Title: Re: Scope Adjustments - are they really necessary?
Post by: pioneer on March 03, 2009, 04:35:24 PM: They do indeed have a practical purpose. It all depends on your skill level. For precision long-range or sniper shooting, you train to read the wind, range, temperature, and other factors and do the math. You can then make the adjustments you will need to avoid holding "off target" to compensate, or as some of us old school guys call it, Kentucky Windage. After you take your shot (shots) you can easily reset your reticle to zero using the large knobs, even while wearing gloves. At night, in the field, making adjustments is easier with larger knobs on the turrets. In most hunting situations making those kinds of adjustments are not necessary.

(http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb294/pioneer461/police.png)
Title: Re: Scope Adjustments - are they really necessary?
Post by: alfsauve on March 03, 2009, 06:07:09 PM: Some of you must think I'm stupid. "What are knobs for?"

The question centered around the use of such prominent knobs when coupled with Mil-Dot reticles. I thought the purpose of mil-dot was so you didn't have to "adjust" anything except your point of aim. The bonus being there's nothing to remember to reset. Also the dots and spaces, being of a given "mil" actually help you in ranging.

I guess it just struck me as odd to pay for "target" knobs on a Mil-Dot reticle.
Title: Re: Scope Adjustments - are they really necessary?
Post by: Texas_Bryan on March 03, 2009, 06:14:20 PM: Maybe the big knobs are for gross adjustments, 100 yards adjusting out to 700, then you use your mil dot to adjust for the target at 710 and then go to 760 and so on. One may mark their knob setting for every 100 yards then switch to the mil dots for small changes.

And maybe they're just there to look cool. You should know all about that SAUVE .
Title: Re: Scope Adjustments - are they really necessary?
Post by: m25operator on March 03, 2009, 07:16:59 PM: This is a difficult subject to discuss, if you have not used the mildot system, for what it was designed for, 1st is ranging target distance, this is an art unto itself, but it does work well, but homework and math are needed to use it effectively. 2nd, the mildot system can be used for holdover, the wind or leading a moving target, this is used for shots that need to be taken quickly ( generally ) at unknown distances, because the target is getting away, and is best used with a good spotter, unless your rifle has no recoil and you can see the dirt fly in your scope. As previously mentioned, the bar section of the reticle, between the dots is a milradian, milradian = 3.6 minutes of angle, the dot itself varies, but an inch is common, and must be included, SO, 1 milradian + 1 mildot, = 4.6 minutes of angle, but you can take away half the dot, if your shooting for the center of the dot, so it = 4.1moa. At 200 yards this means that the distance between the actual center of the reticle and the 2nd dot would = 8.2 moa, roughly 8".

I recommend you go to http://www.shooterready.com/lrsdemohi.html and play with their demo game, not just to play, but take the reticle ( mildot ) and move it up and down on the targets presented at different distances, and just look at the relationship between moving between 1 dot to the next, aiming at the same target, and the center of the reticle.

Now here is a link to what all those dots, and lines equal and a short course in using them.
http://www.eabco.com/Reports/MildotRep01.htm

A scope that will fulfill most of what you expect is the Horace sighting system, here is a link to that, knobs are not needed too often, but the scope is busy. Benny Coolie uses one, and likes it, and Benny can shoot ;D

www.dtic.mil/ndia/2002infantry/cutshaw2.pdf
Title: Re: Scope Adjustments - are they really necessary?
Post by: Hazcat on March 03, 2009, 07:45:00 PM: Quote from: alfsauve on March 03, 2009, 06:07:09 PM
Some of you must think I'm stupid. "What are knobs for?"

The question centered around the use of such prominent knobs when coupled with Mil-Dot reticles. I thought the purpose of mil-dot was so you didn't have to "adjust" anything except your point of aim. The bonus being there's nothing to remember to reset. Also the dots and spaces, being of a given "mil" actually help you in ranging.

I guess it just struck me as odd to pay for "target" knobs on a Mil-Dot reticle.

Don't know about you , Alf but I always liked prominent knobs. (http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/alles_moegliche/mixed-smiley-022.gif) ;D
Title: Re: Scope Adjustments - are they really necessary?
Post by: ericire12 on March 03, 2009, 07:45:47 PM: Quote from: Hazcat on March 03, 2009, 07:45:00 PM
(http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/alles_moegliche/mixed-smiley-022.gif)

Howd you get that picture of M'ette...... I thought I had the only one.
Title: Re: Scope Adjustments - are they really necessary?
Post by: HAWKFISH on March 03, 2009, 09:45:24 PM: Quote from: Hazcat on March 03, 2009, 07:45:00 PM
Don't know about you , Alf but I always liked prominent knobs. (http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/alles_moegliche/mixed-smiley-022.gif) ;D
[/quote]

Those are "target knobs." And I dunno about ya'll but I don't think big knobs are ugly on a rifle. I have been called a "knob tweaker" too btw. ::) Maybe it's because I am thirty. But, I do think bigger knobs look better. Although reading what Alf said.. he's got a point. I don't think it's so important to have them with the mildot...unless you are doing serious long range shooting.
Title: Re: Scope Adjustments - are they really necessary?
Post by: Overload on March 04, 2009, 12:41:14 AM: So you can read them without moving your head from the scope? That is, from a shooting position.
Title: Re: Scope Adjustments - are they really necessary?
Post by: Badgersmilk on March 09, 2009, 11:05:23 AM: Only what I've been taught. So if your looking to argue, or show off dont bother.

The knobs are for "deliberate shots". When you have time to dial in the cross hairs for proper, most accurate firing.

The dots are for "quick target aquisition". You dont have time to dial in, but know your target is far enough away to require compensation. Thats why Mil-dots have dots above the cross hairs. Say you've dialed the scope in for a 600 yard shot. All the sudden a guy pops up 300 yards in front of you and he's got a scope on your buddy. Your buddy will thank you for not taking the time to dial in, but instead use the dots to compensate and maybe not make a "lethal" shot, but at least HIT the guy!

To many people on this site "know" everything though. And only reply if they see an oportunity to show off. So before they point it out... What I said is ALL WRONG!
Title: Re: Scope Adjustments - are they really necessary?
Post by: tombogan03884 on March 09, 2009, 11:15:09 AM: Quote from: Badgersmilk on March 09, 2009, 11:05:23 AM
Only what I've been taught. So if your looking to argue, or show off dont bother.

The knobs are for "deliberate shots". When you have time to dial in the cross hairs for proper, most accurate firing.

The dots are for "quick target aquisition". You dont have time to dial in, but know your target is far enough away to require compensation. Thats why Mil-dots have dots above the cross hairs. Say you've dialed the scope in for a 600 yard shot. All the sudden a guy pops up 300 yards in front of you and he's got a scope on your buddy. Your buddy will thank you for not taking the time to dial in, but instead use the dots to compensate and maybe not make a "lethal" shot, but at least HIT the guy!

To many people on this site "know" everything though. And only reply if they see an oportunity to show off. So before they point it out... What I said is ALL WRONG!

He's talking about "LARGE KNOBS" on the turrets, as opposed to smaller, more "discreet" "Target turrets".
Title: Re: Scope Adjustments - are they really necessary?
Post by: Badgersmilk on March 09, 2009, 11:37:15 AM: MY GOOF! Thanks for catching that!

I think somebody hit that one on the head early on in the thread...

I've got "big knobs" on a bolt gun I like A LOT. I can "adjust by feel" without moving my hold.

If you've adjusted for range, are on target and your spotter tells you (or you just want to) to compensate a click for thermal, or wind changes, half a dozen other things, its critical to not have to change your focus and position, but just reach up and give'em a "click". Same senario is why scopes with target turrets have such prominant "clicks", and many handgun scopes dont even have clicks at all.

The much needed standard disclaimer though: To many people on this site "know" everything though. And only reply if they see an oportunity to show off. So before they point it out... What I said is ALL WRONG!
Title: Re: Scope Adjustments - are they really necessary?
Post by: SwoopSJ on March 09, 2009, 12:51:48 PM: Quote from: Badgersmilk on March 09, 2009, 11:37:15 AM
The much needed standard disclaimer though: To many people on this site "know" everything though. And only reply if they see an oportunity to show off. So before they point it out... What I said is ALL WRONG!

Man, I guess someone here has previously ruffled your feathers. Most people on this sight are good humored and don't intend to cause any hurt feelings. I was taught, however, that if you go out looking for a fight you're sure to find one. Peace.

Swoop
Title: Re: Scope Adjustments - are they really necessary?
Post by: alfsauve on March 09, 2009, 05:14:08 PM: Nothing wrong with big knobs. Nothing wrong with resettable large lettered knobs. If I were "target" shooting, or shooting at casual targets, that's what I want....uh, that's what I have. The question was about mixing, mil-dot with target ~~faucits~~ knobs. I guess I should have made the "subject line" a little more precise.

Okay, show of hands. IHMSA shooters, how many of you have ever forgot to reset your sights when changing positions? Be truthful. I can't be the only one who got off the ram line shooting standing and went to shoot chickens in production and forgot to crank the sights back down. One of the reasons for going with mil-dot is you don't change the zero. AND you don't forget to change those settings back. It's always at a known zero. Hence the original, albeit poorly stated question.
Title: Re: Scope Adjustments - are they really necessary?
Post by: kmitch200 on March 11, 2009, 12:23:32 AM: Mil-dots are for ranging.
If they happen to fit your ballistics for using as holdover, (which is going to change with elevation, temp, etc.) great.
But the dots are for ranging.

Besides, if Nightforce didn't want me to be able to dial in the correct settings, they would have put caps on them! :P
Title: Re: Scope Adjustments - are they really necessary?
Post by: alfsauve on March 11, 2009, 05:36:51 AM: Quote from: kmitch200 on March 11, 2009, 12:23:32 AM
Besides, if Nightforce didn't want me to be able to dial in the correct settings, they would have put caps on them! :P

LOL. Duh, silly me to question the manufacturers logic.
Title: Re: Scope Adjustments - are they really necessary?
Post by: Badgersmilk on March 11, 2009, 06:58:42 AM: While you can use them for about anything you wish... And reading many manuals it seems they HAVE been used for about anything people wish... Kmitch200 is right.

"The USMC was the first U.S. military service to in corporate a mil dot reticle in sniper optics by having it installed by J.
Unertl for use on the M40 sniper weapons system. When the Army decided to incorporate a range estimation tool into it
sniper optics it chose this system and had Leupold make the reticle accordingly."

http://www.remingtonmilitary.com/articles/DA%202005.12MH.pdf (http://www.remingtonmilitary.com/articles/DA%202005.12MH.pdf)
Title: Re: Scope Adjustments - are they really necessary?
Post by: Badgersmilk on March 11, 2009, 07:29:35 AM: http://www.remingtonmilitary.com/m24A3sws.htm (http://www.remingtonmilitary.com/m24A3sws.htm)

In .338 with a silencer... Excuse my drool!
Title: Re: Scope Adjustments - are they really necessary?
Post by: Big Frank on March 11, 2009, 09:21:07 PM: Quote from: Badgersmilk on March 11, 2009, 07:29:35 AM
http://www.remingtonmilitary.com/m24A3sws.htm (http://www.remingtonmilitary.com/m24A3sws.htm)

In .338 with a silencer... Excuse my drool!

OPS INC 12th Model 338 LM Muzzle Break and Sound Suppressor. Muzzle B-R-E-A-K? ???
Title: Re: Scope Adjustments - are they really necessary?
Post by: Hazcat on March 11, 2009, 09:24:51 PM: Quote from: Badgersmilk on March 11, 2009, 07:29:35 AM
http://www.remingtonmilitary.com/m24A3sws.htm (http://www.remingtonmilitary.com/m24A3sws.htm)

In .338 with a silencer... Excuse my drool!

"silencer"? Never "heard" of one. ;)

How about "suppressor"?
Title: Re: Scope Adjustments - are they really necessary?
Post by: alfsauve on March 11, 2009, 09:36:10 PM: Quote from: Hazcat on March 11, 2009, 09:24:51 PM
"silencer"? Never "heard" of one. ;)

Sure you have. You attach it with a clip.

Alf
[Also drooling over the M24 with the "thingy" attached]
Title: Re: Scope Adjustments - are they really necessary?
Post by: Badgersmilk on March 12, 2009, 01:06:12 PM: Call it a "muffler bearing"... Sure would like to have that rifle!
Title: Re: Scope Adjustments - are they really necessary?
Post by: m25operator on March 12, 2009, 02:13:51 PM: Don't forget the M40,
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff150/m25operator/100_1335.jpg)
Title: Re: Scope Adjustments - are they really necessary?
Post by: Badgersmilk on March 12, 2009, 10:12:30 PM: I'm all set when it comes to .308 firepower. DONT think I'll be moving up to .338 anytime soon!!!

Remington Ammunition 338 Lapua Magnum 250 Grain Scenar Match Box of 20
available at this price
Our Price:
$125.99

NICE looking rifle though!
Title: Re: Scope Adjustments - are they really necessary?
Post by: dnittler on March 13, 2009, 10:49:14 AM: Target turrets for windage, not so much.

Depends on what you plan to do with the rifle. If you are looking to take deer at distances wtihin the point blank range of your particular caliber than no, they wouldn't be neccesary since your bullet never deviates more than 3" over and below. You don't need mil-dots for that application either. With a .308, 30-06, .270, 7mm mag etc, if you setup to be 2" over at 100 yards, you can just hold point of aim out to 300 yards and end up wtih a kill. (the kill zone of a deer is 6" from top to bottom of lungs/heart area). Since you hunting scope is parralax free at 150 yards, your 100-300 yard range is already set so you need not worry abotu that setting.

Now, it you want to compete in your local long range tactical course with multiple distances (200-600 yard targets) than they are very handy. Sure, you can count clicks, but if you loose count of where you are at during the match you are screwed. I would even add that unless you have perfect form and constant cheek weld that parralax adjsutment is also very important for such an application.

Basically you set your POA/POI to a set distance (usually around 100 yards) and zero the ring on the turret. So if you know the distance you are shooting is a 9 MOA drop, just spin that ole' turret up to the 9 MOA setting. It allows you to free your mind from counting clicks, and just spin the knob like you would to find a radio station. All that's left for you to do is try and slow your heart rate, squeeze and hopefully hear the steel target "ring".

I shot an NRA rimfire match last week and got to play wtih some nice Leupys wtih target turrest and some nice Leupys without. A match .22lr is POA/POI at 25 yards, about 3-4 MOA drop to 50 yards, and 7-9 MOA drop out to 100 yards. Consider that the small steel targets are 4" tall, you gotta be on the money with you aim. unless you had paper with you there is no way you could keep tract of your clicks in such a match ifyou were trying to count clicks, compete and score other competitors. Not to mention that you only have 2 minutes to take the 5 targets (same distance) and you may find that you need to add a few clicks during you firing time. No problem with a turret. just reach up and click.
Title: Re: Scope Adjustments - are they really necessary?
Post by: beagleman on April 17, 2009, 05:52:01 PM: There only necessary if you want real accuracy for any range. Any body how is planning on using a scoped rifle for what ever needs to have the adjusted scoped for real accuracy.