The Down Range Forum
Flying Dragon Productions ( Michael Bane ) => The Best Defense on My Outdoor TV => Topic started by: Rob Pincus on February 25, 2009, 09:12:29 PM
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Well guys & gals, this is something that was being asked about since the very first episode aired. What did you all think of the way we handled it?
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Rob,
I enjoyed the show. I was glad to see that you guys showed the "no no's" of what to do after you are forced to use leathal force. I always wondered what to do with my firearm after I was forced to use it(reholster, place on the ground and backaway), so I was really happy to see you guy address that. Hopefuly sometime in the future I hope to see you guys address the same kind of situation but in a public place, How to handle other peoples reaction? What to tell other people? I was also glad to see that you guys talked about flashlights, Gun mounted V.S handheld. I never leave home with out my light (Fenix P3D) I feel that if you carry a gun, you must carry a light. They could prevent the use of a firearm in many situations.
Keep up the good work guys!
Boudreaux
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I thought it was spot on. I'd like to see you add to that with how to handle the questions by the LEO's on the scene. How much should you say to them, which questions should you answer? Which ones to avoid?
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A good scenario, tailored to a cut and dry outcome. Perhaps a future variant could include a downed suspect who is still conscious and in possession of a firearm. Also, my wife pointed out that the shooter may have been in a better tactical position if he had stayed in the corner, so that: 1) His back was covered; and 2) There would be no accusation from witnesses that he was "looking for trouble" when he checked around the car and area. I know, I know, he was looking for threats, but her point does have some validity. I also noted that he didn't keep his attention on the downed suspect, in case she recovered and continued the assault, ditched the weapon, signaled a partner, etc. If I were in his shoes, and moved out to check the area, I would move away from her. If she is not unconscious or dead, she certainly had the opportunity to reach out and grab or stab him.
While I agree that he should not interact with her after the shooting, I must interject some variables. If she had the potential to continue the attack, I feel it would be dangerous but appropriate in some situations to kick away the weapon. Also, while I have no legal duty to act in this scenario, I am a certified Paramedic, and I'm sure a crafty attorney could make me look bad for not treating the suspect.
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I thought it was spot on. I'd like to see you add to that with how to handle the questions by the LEO's on the scene. How much should you say to them, which questions should you answer? Which ones to avoid?
+1. I would also like to hear about what you would do in a situation where the assaulter's cohorts have not left the scene, but are lurking at a difficult distance to do something about, under cover or concealment, and the arrival of LEO is not necessarilly imminent (like some neighborhoods I can think of).
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Thanks, Gem and Para.
Para,
I agree with some o your points.... and some of them were not addressed (or not addressed in more detail at any rate) because of practical setting and time concerns.
As to the "kick away the weapon"... I disagree entirely (and this gets to your point also, Gem). At one point is it okay to get within striking distance of that knife if you are in control: NEVER. That logic says he should have done a roundhouse kick and knocked the weapon away in the first place if taken to its extreme. The answer is that you either leave the area (not what we wanted to show in this segment) or you stand by and respond appropriately (ie- with the gun) if she or any friends become a immediate lethal threat.
The Medical attention issue is the same answer.... you have no duty to act. Exposing yourself to danger because a lawyer might make you look bad later is not what I would recommend. It may be seen by some as a muddy moral issue, but for me it is a clear cut defensive one.
Gem,
If the friends are just standing around and heckling (a situation that is very likely an that I've witnessed in an LE capacity), you ignore them or leave (again, we didn't have time to show everything, nor did we intend to address the leaving option).
-RJP
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An even more critical problem can be the assailants friends surrounding you, threatening you and demanding your firearm.
All the more reason to keep your cellphone tuned to channel 911. If you are in a no cell reception area, most phones have a recorder function and many have live video recording. Keeping this running as long as possible could go a long way to document your defense actions. Fairly soon we'll probably have live video recording built in to the firearm, or added to the modular lights.
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Change "fairly soon" to "eventually", as far as video video guns/grips/lights go, since everyone has their own definition of soon.
I also forgot to say how very much I enjoyed the episode, and hope you can expand on these issues in future shows.
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Rob,
Just wanted to clarify a couple points.
I would not try to kick a knife out of someone's hand while they were up and running.
I would consider kicking a firearm away from a downed BG so that it could not be used against me after I had retreated from the immediate area. Especially in the confines of the scenario, since he had to walk within inches of her to move around. Again, this all depends on the minutiae of the incident, like whether the firearm was still in hand, finger on trigger, etc. For me it's a judgment call. Despite what comes out of Hollywood (as I'm sure you will agree) most BGs don't have the forethought or discipline to go from attack mode to faking unconsciousness that quickly. I've gotten pretty good at knowing what dead looks like, but not everybody can do that.
A lot of variables can be factored into a situation that hasn't happened yet, like I said before, the televised scenario was pretty cut and dried. The woman could have fallen down, tossed the weapon, and said, "Oh God, they made me do it! I'm sorry! I'm dying! I'm bleeding! Help me!" Or something similar. Definitely would make the average Joe uncomfortable if there was a delayed response. But now I'm just letting my mind wander...
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I liked very much for me every episode is great but the 911 call details and flashlight usage are things for me practice with so I can protect my family and myself. Always pay attention to Detail would be great for 911 calls.
I look forward to watching every episode and if I can not you better bet I have the timer set to record it.
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I was bummed I was traveling back from Oregon (getting my CHL from there) and missed the show. Can't wait to see the re-air, or when the video player is finally back on a Wednesday as well. One thing that the people at USCCA (http://uscca.us) have for their members is a card that you can give to LEO during the aftermath. Basically says, "I acted in self-defense, this is an emotional time for me, will be happy to give a statement after I talk to my attorney, and I am willing to press charges against this other person". Highly recommend getting a copy of that card so that you can get yourself pulled together. Again, I am bummed I missed this episode and can't wait to see it!
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D-man,
I just did a training DVD that will be released later this year with Marty Hayes of the Armed Citizen Legal Defense Network. He advised against that type of card for some very good reasons. First, you need to talk to the responding police in order to establish what happened and to reduce the chances of getting arrested. Marty goes on to say (and I agree) that you should stick to the basics (some of which on on the typical cards) and then STOP talking and ask for your attorney if you are arrested (read your miranda rights, not cuffed for detention). Furthermore, the card indicates that you may or may not have been sincere in your need to use self-defense.. ie- "you just handed them a card", which could carryover in civil trial, if any. Again, there are a lot of variables, but I don't recommend the card.
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Para,
I certainly didn't think you were talking about kicking a knife out of a standing persons hand... but the concept is the same as kicking the weapon away from the person on the ground. Not only are you tampering with evidence which can establish opportunity and ability (in regard to the lethal threat), but, at least in the scenario we showed, you would've increased your danger by getting closer to the bad-guy.... and as you noted they could still be a threat. In regard to this:
...and said, "Oh God, they made me do it! I'm sorry! I'm dying! I'm bleeding! Help me!" Or something similar. Definitely would make the average Joe uncomfortable if there was a delayed response. But now I'm just letting my mind wander...
I agree 100%, which is exactly why it was important for us to remind people not to do it. When the right thing to do goes against human nature or instinct, it has to be trained early & often to be performed under stress.
-RJP
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A lot of variables can be factored into a situation that hasn't happened yet, like I said before, the televised scenario was pretty cut and dried.
"Cut and dried" is about all anyone can show in the 19 minutes of content we actually have available for each show. If we spend an entire show trying to cover all the possible mutations of an incident like that, we'd still run out of time and viewers would be disappointed that we didn't show a variety of topics.
The bottom line with all the scenarios--and the format--is to show a "bad" response and then show a "good" response to compare the two and illustrate specific learning points. I am confident that we've been effective in doing that. There will never be a "perfect" response, but if we stimulate good discussion that gets people thinking, we can collectively work in that direction.
Stay safe,
Mike
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D-man,
I just did a training DVD that will be released later this year with Marty Hayes of the Armed Citizen Legal Defense Network. He advised against that type of card for some very good reasons. First, you need to talk to the responding police in order to establish what happened and to reduce the chances of getting arrested. Marty goes on to say (and I agree) that you should stick to the basics (some of which on on the typical cards) and then STOP talking and ask for your attorney if you are arrested (read your miranda rights, not cuffed for detention). Furthermore, the card indicates that you may or may not have been sincere in your need to use self-defense.. ie- "you just handed them a card", which could carryover in civil trial, if any. Again, there are a lot of variables, but I don't recommend the card.
-RJP
Very valid point, and a lot of people on the forum over there have said the same thing. The best I was told was to memorize the following, "I was in fear for my life and acted in self-defense." Beyond that, shut up as much as possible. Having been in a shooting, I know the adrenaline was flowing like crazy and it was tough to organize thoughts afterwards. The tunnel vision while it was happening was amazing. Teaching yourself to scan is so important! Sorry digressing there.
Thank you for that important input.
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RJP and Mike, I like your comments about the card and information given defining what to say in the aftermath of force on force.
I know it will help me.
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at least in the scenario we showed, you would've increased your danger by getting closer to the bad-guy.... and as you noted they could still be a threat. In regard to this:
I agree 100%, which is exactly why it was important for us to remind people not to do it. When the right thing to do goes against human nature or instinct, it has to be trained early & often to be performed under stress.
I think that was something very effective for me right from the beginning, attacker is a "normal looking female" which probably isn't our normal frame of mind for the BG. My question sequence wise was (and this could be memory fade or a proximity issue) it seemed like the victim pulled his pistol but then didn't go to "command" mode but went right to shoot mode. You were focused more on the aftermath but was there also a better sequence (part of what you show by coming out the with light and scanning in the first place) that would have been a de-escalation? It was well shot from the perspective of proximity, steps, etc.
I also really liked the segment on using the light the right way, there were things I hadn't really thought about.
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Meta,
When I watched the final edit, it did feel like the shot was somewhat quick..... while we were focused on the aftermath as the learning point, i do remember stressing the need to tell the threat to stop and the point that the shot came AFTER she repeatedly articulated a threat. The fact is that in those close and fast circumstances, each person is going to have to decide for themselves when it is appropriate to use lethal force. I don't think the final edit shows an inappropriate shot.... at that distance, you are certainly justified in responding with a shot without any verbal. Justified use of lethal force comes down to perception and fear. It is tough to second guess that with any legitimacy based on a video clip!
-RJP
PS- If she was a "normal looking female", you should re-evaluate where you hang out! :).
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Excellent episode, in many ways more important than any other episode of the show. I watched with my significant other, and was very glad that we did. She is preparing to begin carrying and has gone to a class, but in this realm the learning never stops. Being former military I honestly had not thought about the assailant's weapon, and probably would have executed EPW procedures and kicked it away. I would not have picked it up, but kicking it I simply had not thought of as a bad thing. Now I have thought allot more about that aspect of threat response.
It is most difficult to deal with the aftermath of any such situation, and in the time you had for the show I think you covered the most important high points, and in a good manner. Thank you for publically working in this field gentlemen. It may not be PC, but it is needed unfortunately in the world we live in.
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What flashlight was Michael using in his segment at the end of the show?
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What flashlight was Michael using in his segment at the end of the show?
It was a BLACKHAWK Gladius Maximis. Here's a link:
http://www.blackhawk.com/product/Night-Ops-Gladius-Maximis-Illumination-Tool,994,40.htm
Stay safe,
Mike
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D-man,
I just did a training DVD that will be released later this year with Marty Hayes of the Armed Citizen Legal Defense Network. He advised against that type of card for some very good reasons. <snip>
Got my membership materials back not too long ago with three DVD's. I highly recommend everyone who carries join:
http://www.armedcitizensnetwork.org/ (http://www.armedcitizensnetwork.org/)
Membership is well over 1000 and growing. With additional membership growth, at some point in the future the great information pool should be further supplanted and expanded with actual legal counsel for members involved in self-defense shootings.
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Have they actually defended any one yet, for some verifiable feed back ?
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Have they actually defended any one yet, for some verifiable feed back ?
They do not defend anyone at present. There is no service or staff for that. What they do is provide information right now. This is the organization and guy, Marty Hayes, that MB recorded for his podcast at the Rangemaster/Polite Society get together a few weeks ago. Mr. Hayes used to work with Massad Ayoob.
Right now it's an organization in progress that has provided me some very good information. Seems to be growing fast enough to me and I think it is an aid to concealed carry holders. The level of information of people on this board is way far ahead of the general gun toting public and this organization can benefit them the most.
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It was a BLACKHAWK Gladius Maximis. Here's a link:
http://www.blackhawk.com/product/Night-Ops-Gladius-Maximis-Illumination-Tool,994,40.htm
Stay safe,
Mike
Groovy, thanks.
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Good episode--I learned a lot. Now on to a suggestion for future episodes (or even a series to follow Best Defense, Survival): the law as it relates to firearms. Some possible episodes:
--The Second Amendment: what did it mean then, what does it mean today
--Major federal laws governing firearms
--The disparity and complexity of state firearm laws
--Carry permits; reciprocity
--How to handle a police stop when carrying (or even having a permit)
--Justified use of lethal force
--Requirement to flee from a threat if possible
--Castle doctrine
--Affirmative defense (in Virginia the presumption is 2nd degree homicide unless you can affirmatively prove otherwise)
--Legal preparations: picking a couple of lawyers you could call; knowing what to not say to the police
--Forces of change in the law: Brady organization, Bloomberg, NRA, etc.
There are many real-life incidences that could add a lot of good insight into these topics, showing that sometime the outcome is good, sometimes bad. The first two seasons of Best Defense have focused on saving your life. A future season should be dedicated to preserving your liberty.