The Down Range Forum
Flying Dragon Productions ( Michael Bane ) => The Best Defense on My Outdoor TV => Topic started by: Marshal Halloway on March 04, 2009, 04:09:38 AM
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There are a number of reasons to be prepared for defense at your home, office or while on the streets. But as more and more of us venture into the backcountry for hiking, camping or any type of outdoor activity, the same precautions we take in our homes and city need to apply while in the outdoors. Maybe even more so. When you are in the backcountry, you are less likely to receive assistance in a timely matter. And the danger from predators, both four legged and two legged, needs to be taken into consideration.
Airtime: Wednesday, March 4, 2009
Rerun: Wednesday, June 3, 2009
http://www.downrange.tv/bestdefense/episode10.htm
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Date: 3/4/2009 5:06:11 PM
Hi Mike:
Mike, this last show was one of the best we have seen. We really like the down to earth shows, the ones we can relate to, like hiking or walking in public parks, and places where you might not expect to see 2 legged predators. Keep up the good work, and thank you for the great show.
Warmest regards, John & Sharen J.
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Hi, Mike,
This week's "Best Defense" was very good and appropriate for me.
I gotta ask: Did that goofy little boy in your lead-in ever catch a bug in his gaping mouth? Did he swallow it or spit it out?
I just have to know.
The program on shooting .22s was useful, too. With the cost of ammunition sky-rocketing, .22s are a great way to go. Incidentally, InSights Training, in Bellevue, WA, is allowing .22s in some of their classes this year, for the first time.
Sean R.
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Date: 3/4/2009 7:03:56 PM
Hello,
First I just wanted to say thank you for creating such a great series. I have really enjoyed all of the episodes. Being a Utah (Salt Lake City) native, I have also enjoyed that you guys are here quite frequently.
I wanted to point out one thing from the Back Country episode that I felt was missing. In previous episodes there has been talk about engaging emergency services and how to work with a 911 operator. Unfortunately in this episode there was no talk about what to do after an incident. If you are forced into a situation where a shot is taken, what is next? Do you leave the person there and then hike out to the nearest communication point and then report the incident?
I am a ham radio operator and always carry FRS/GMRS and Amateur Radios with me when I am out. But even then there may not be others listening.
I would be interested in your thoughts....
Thanks again for the great show!
-Brett N.
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Loved the episode. As someone who is constantly in the backcountry, it is very relevant. Granted most of the time I am hunting in the backcountry and carry a weapon all the time. I was surprised that they didn't talk about shoulder holster carry. That is my preferred carry, especially with a backpack on. It is out of the way, and even with a light shirt it is covered and I carry a full sized .45. Lastly in regards to the warning shots at animals. In states where hunting cats is illegal, they don't run away from warning shots, or if they have rabies, they will keep coming in. At that point, you need to put them down! Have had a few mtn. lions come in over the years while hunting and hiking. They tend to appear at 30 feet and they will close in quickly.
Still a great episode! Thanks again for the wonderful series.
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I noticed Michael mentioned bags that are useful for caring handguns and that there are a lot of these bags available as sporting goods stores. I have recently purchased a bag from http://www.maxpedition.com/ which allows a handgun to be stored and carried concealed very easily. Maxpedition does offer several different sized cross rigs as well as a gun slinger version of a back pack. I purchased the Jumbo Versipack to carry a H&K USP Tactical which I have since gotten ride of due to it being too big to carry but I can say that a full sized glock to a 4 inch full sized revolver.
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Enjoyed the backcountry show - a lot of good info. One thing that you could have hit on a bit more - it is illegal anywhere in California, as far as I am aware, to carry concealed, including on public lands. There are a lot of hiking trails in the Sierra, and open carry is pretty much a requirement if you're going to carry a firearm at all. I open carry when riding an ATV, and have never had a problem with it. I'd rather somebody see that I have a weapon - might make them think twice before starting something. You're right on about a wheel gun - an S&W Mod. 60, 2 1/8" barrel in .357 mag is my choice - surprisingly easy to shoot well and enough power for most critters.
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One thing that you could have hit on a bit more - it is illegal anywhere in California, as far as I am aware, to carry concealed, including on public lands.
It would be a day long show if they'd go through each state of when and where you could carry. Each person would need to know the local, state and federal laws for their own place / situation. Here's a site that might help some >> http://www.nra-ila.com/ (http://www.nra-ila.com/) .
Another great show guys! I especially liked how Rob subtly referenced the balance of speed & precision as well as deviation control into the segment. Both very important topics, you can listen to this podcast for more info >> http://switchpod.com/p13003.html (http://switchpod.com/p13003.html) .
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I liked this episode and want to congradulate Rod for his comment about not wanting to shooting animals.That was a good point to make Also you may be fined big time by state game wardensjust for shooting them even if you do not bring it home with you and that be all I wont try to elleberate on this. But You can shoot, shout, and wave your arms most of the time that will scare them away.
I know there are only two reasons for cats to attack
1. stalk their prey for food and
2. to play they have to be mighty hungry to stalk a human. But if they think it is play time most likely you can scare them off.
Right now I live in Kansas but I grew up in Utah and lived in colorado for a while, I have some cool photos of them.
When out and about which I was allot while trapping coyotes and bobcats we seen plenty cats out and around and if you did not see one you could bet they are there somewhere lurking in the underbrush.
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My first post and I must say I love this series and look forward to viewing each week. The topics are applicable to me and my family's safety and security concerns. While I enjoy the "other" shows that demonstrate how to clear a huval in Fallujah (this is very interesting) it simply has very little relevance to what may happen in my own home or my community.
Specific to last nights episode;
I noticed for the first time on this series a discussion about cross-draw carry rigs. This kinda suprised me because I had got the impression that the experts on the show tended to discourage this in favor of the inside or outside strong side belt holster. I must admit that when I first obtained my legal concealed carry permit I carried hammer down on an empty chamber, loaded magazine in a cross-draw vest. After a little time and some professional instruction I realized I was not really "carrying" a concealed weapon but instead just "transporting" a weapon concealed. I also understand that carrying in such a manner can expose a lot of what you don't need to shoot to potential muzzle sweep on the draw (even more likely in a stressful, hostile encounter). So, I guess my question is what changed in last nights scenerio that makes a cross-draw rig more acceptable and do the experts consider a cross-draw rig appropriate for daily carry on trips to the "quiki-mart"?
Thank you again for all the efforts and intentions with the show.
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Date: 3/5/2009 7:45:57 AM
I was really hoping you can tell me the name, brand or item number for the shoulder holster in the back country episode that was on yesterday the 4th. the one man said he liked the cross draw holster but I really liked the other mans holster because it held the pistol kind of upside down and held it at rib level but almost in front of his stomach. I never seen a shoulder rig like that and it looked very comfortable. I didn’t catch the brand name and I have been looking for one all night. please help me out.
RICHARD G.
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Richard,
The shoulder rig Rob used can be found here: http://www.survivalsheath.com/holsters/index.htm
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Date: 3/5/2009 8:21:40 AM
Subject: holsters
In last nights 'TBD', Michael had on a possibly REI waist bag, man-bag he said, suitable for his revolver...what kind/model was it. Also, my friend Rob Pincus had on a chest rig for his revolver...please tell me what make/model that was. We appreciate your endeavor and your help. Thank you.
Tom T.
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For the chest rig, see link above.
Michael used the safe packer found here: http://store.thewilderness.com/index.php?cPath=51
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I wanted to point out one thing from the Back Country episode that I felt was missing. In previous episodes there has been talk about engaging emergency services and how to work with a 911 operator. Unfortunately in this episode there was no talk about what to do after an incident. If you are forced into a situation where a shot is taken, what is next? Do you leave the person there and then hike out to the nearest communication point and then report the incident?
This is the same thing I thought, especially when there was a pack, the other two didn't flee, you don't want to just back away depending on the terrain and you could be many miles from phone service. Of course there are other "pre-hike" items: don't go alone for one. This is also an issue where you may be outgunned because you may while enjoying say the Pacific Coast Trail run into the drug runner so there are a lot of potential issues.
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Being from Idaho, I have found myself staring eye to eye with some pretty ugly four legged, and 2 legged animals. What I would like to know is what model of Smith and Wesson was Michael Bane was shooting. I believe the caliber was a .44 magnum, Airlite. I thought it was a great show, really thought it hit on some very key points in defense tactics in the wild.
Thanks
Morgan
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So, I guess my question is what changed in last nights scenerio that makes a cross-draw rig more acceptable and do the experts consider a cross-draw rig appropriate for daily carry on trips to the "quiki-mart"?
Dear Parrotthead:
Thanks for posting and for your support of the show. In response to your question, Rob and Mike both referenced that a crossdraw has special appeal when operating in the backcountry because it's more confortable and accessible when riding a horse or an ATV. It also presents the gun at an angle that works around the straps of most backpacks (try drawing from an IWB in a 5 o'clock position when wearing a backpack!).
I agree that in such circumstances, the crossdraw really shines. For urban concealed carry, the crossdraw can still be a viable choice--as long as you work to develop the tactics and sound gunhandling to go with it. Rob demonstrated in the show how the draw from the chest rig (a form of crossdraw) "fed into" the same flow of movement of a strong-side draw by clearing the holster and bringing the gun near the right hip. That's a proper technique and a great low-profile, sneaky draw if you need it. Unfortunately, I've seen some crossdraw technique that looks more like someone watering his lawn than drawing a firearm.
Train hard and smart enough and you can make it work.
Stay safe,
Mike
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Thanks, all!
I so wish these shows were an hour...or even 2! The hardest thing in planning TBD episodes is what to leave "on the floor." Lemme throw in another plug for my book TRAIL SAFE, which is now officially in production...hopefully, we'll have copies at the NRA Show in Phoenix...and YES, we will have special pricing for DRTV Forum members!
The communication issue in the backcountry is huge and complex...for example, in the encounter with the poacher I've mentioned on the forums, my Sweetie and I were hours and hours into a "speed hike" deep in the wild mountains on the Colorado/New Mexico border. I contacted the ranger when we got out of the mountains, but it was a long lag time.
I usually carry a cell phone — an iPhone with GPS and trail mapping apps — but here in the mountains it often gets no service or can't "see" the GPS sats. I would say that generally if you have an encounter that did not end in gunfire or a physical attack on what we might think of as an urban trail or within an hour of the trailhead where you parked — the most likely cases — break off the hike, return to your car and notify the authorities (and any other hikers you encounter on the way back to the trailhead).
If a shot has been fired or you are involved in a physical altercation, you MUST immediately get to a place where you can notify rangers AND law enforcement. You have a responsibility to other people on the trail as well as your own legal liability. As my old friend Mas Ayoob has said repeatedly, often the first person to contact the authorities is seen as the "good guy."
If you have been involved in an encounter of any kind, especially a "Code Black" situation and you are retreating to the trailhead to call the authorities or to find help, remember that you are involved in an "armed retreat"...that is, you are AT RISK the whole length of the retreat. That means your awareness must be peaked, your primary weapon needs to be either immediately accessible or in your hand (depending on the trail...on a scrambling trail you might need both your hands to work your way down), and you need to briefly stop, calm and center yourself and access your surroundings, especially your "6." Are you being followed? Are there parallel trails or cross trails where you could be ambushed? Does you cell phone work? Do you need to leave any heavy gear behind so you can move faster/more sure-footedly (remember,you can always get new stuff; it's harder to get a new life)? Do you need to recheck how gear is hanging, an issue if you left the scene of the altercation quickly and under pressure)...even to the point of checking your show laces! A rugged trail has more risks for the unwary than just bad people.
Remember, at this point, you are in "Indian Country," and you need to rely on your every skill to get you home.
And remember to build those skills. I live up here. I like the bear who lives in the backyard and I've come to grips with the cats. I have very good backcountry skills and have spent time, sometimes all alone, in some very rugged, inhospitable places. I've schlepped on foot and bicycle through Alaska in the winter and Death Valley in the summer, and I'm still here, which is sort of the ultimate proof of process.
Every spring I see people pour onto the Front Range trails near the Secret Hidden Bunker totally unequipped to deal with what the mountains can roll out...rookie mistakes like the wrong clothing (in the high country, especially above the tree line, you can get all four seasons in a couple of hours); the wrong shoes; a casual attitude toward the mountain trails ("Hey, it's an easy walk-up!"), no basic survival gear (at the very least, a knife, a lighter/waterproof matches/firestarter paste, a "space" blanket and a whistle...a gun works for that loud noise thing, too) and a willingness to leave their basic awareness skills they use every day in the city behind. Every year, some of those rookies get to stay up here forever, and not in a good way.
THANKS FOR WATCHING! Next season, we'll go into more details for you!
Michael B
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Remember, at this point, you are in "Indian Country," and you need to rely on your every skill to get you home.
Does that mean it's ok to take some food back with you on the trek to the trail head, ala Jeremiah Johnston?
The Blackfoot planned to sell him to the Crow, his mortal enemies, for a handsome price. He was stripped to the waist, tied with leather thongs and put in a teepee with an inexperienced guard outside. Johnson managed to chew through the straps, then knocked out his young guard with a two-finger jab between the eyes, took his knife and scalped him, then quickly cut off one of his legs. He made his escape into the woods, and survived on the Blackfoot's leg until he reached the cabin of Del Gue.
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Great follow up post, Michael
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Great follow up post, Michael
+10
MB keep us updated on when we can order Trail Safe.
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+10
MB keep us updated on when we can order Trail Safe.
Ditto on that ! ;D
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Worked for Jeremiah...biggest issue is having the right spices with you for "leg'o'miscreant"!
BTW, I've sort of defaulted to large-bore revolvers for backcountry carry. My favorites are the S&W Ultralites, such as the .44 Magnum 329 I used on the show and the 296/396 Ultralite .44 Specials or the Charter Arms Bulldog .44 (which, now that CT makes LaserGrips for it, moves up in my estimation).
Here's a caveat on the 19-ounce 329...it is a world class .44 Special revolver that will also shoot .44 Magnum loads, but BEWARE of heavy bullet loads (beyond 240 grains) in the 329 unless you disable the Rube Goldberg internal lock! Voice of experience speaking here!
Re: Crossdraws (and to an extent shoulder holsters), the dis'sing of crossdraws and shoulder holsters are good examples of how what might make perfect sense for LEOs and or for people shooting competitions can sometimes be incorrectly filtered into the mainstream. Crossdraws have been a popular alternative to the strongside holster since the Old West days and for pretty consistent reasons...they're a great holster when riding a horse (Old West reason #1) or a motorcycle/ATV (Modern reason #1) or driving (Modern reason #2) or if you may have to draw from a seated position (Modern reason #3), where a strongside draw might cause you to either move your legs or cant your body and telegraphy your move.
They are also chainsaw fast to access...in the early days of "combat" shooting we all used crossdraws, or a crossdraw set in the appendix position, because they were quick quick quick. Depending on the guns, crossdraws conceal pretty well, especially since the "experienced" eye goes to the person's strong (usually right) side looking for signs of concealed carry.
Finally, crossdraws do well carrying heavy guns, with the weight distributed a little more on the long access of the belt.
Crossdraws fell from favor with LEOs because they are much easier to snatch...you're presenting the butt of your pistol to a possible assailant. They fell out of favor (read, got banned) in competition because a crossdraw often resulted in "sweeping" either spectators or the person drawing or reholstering the gun. Secondly, modern techniques, including the punch-out draw stroke and firing from retention, are all built around the strongside holster. A draw from a crossdraw holster is a distinctly different animal than a strongside draw. Modern strongside draws have you rotating the barrel of the gun toward the target the moment the gun breaks out of the holster, giving you essentially a retention firing position; then the gun is punched out toward the target.
In a crossdraw (if I remember correctly), you'll be rotating your strong wrist toward vertical as you break the gun out of the holster and punch the gun toward the target. You can still fire during the transition, but you don't have as strong a retention position.
Lots of top cowboy shooters use a strongside and a crossdraw for their two pistols (the system I use)...to keep from breaking the 180 degree line there's a "crossdraw two-step" you see 'em do on the draw.
Ditto for shoulder holsters, which work great in their intended application. For winter hiking I will often go to an Uncle Mike's shoulder holster (fabric rather than leather, since there can be sweat buildup under winter shells), which can be accessed through the front vent zips of so-equipped shells. I like this because it allows me to "go to the gun" sooner...in the dead of winter what looks more normal than sticking your hands through the front vents of your jacket and tucking them into your armpits/
Finally finally, your backcountry carry method is going to totally depend on what other gear you are regularly carrying — backpacks, hydration packs, fanny packs, etc. Gear is a strictly personal choice, and there's about a billion variations, so it's hard to make any general recommendations!
Michael B, blathering on
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Love the show!! Just watched the episode about being safe in the back country, and as I live in the country I have to agree. However, one salient point to make here - the lady in question, while absolutely no doubt that she was justified in shooting her attacker, will need a very good lawyer! There are the remaining "witnesses" that will no doubt testify that they were just minding their business when this crazy woman came up on them, started yelling and then shot their best friend. Unless these miscreants have some kind of criminal record, she's in a big heap of doo-doo. IMHO, a less-than-lethal approach, or as you so wisely stated, avoidance, would be a much better option. That is unless she's willing to shoot all 3 of them to death and leave no witnesses!! :o :-X Just an observation. Just as we should consider what's beyond the target, we need to keep in mind what will happen after the trigger is pulled, when the police are involved. Adjudication after the fact can be very expensive and if not successful will see you kept confined with a lot more scumbags than you might think possible! Just because you are right doesn't make you right in the eyes of the court...
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Loved seeing the revolvers. One thing great about them is if you are ambushed by a four legged predator you will be able to continue firing if the animal is on top of you. This comes in real handy in bear country. I do not go into a forest without at least having a .357 magnum or larger caliber revolver.
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Reading Trail Safe now. It seems strange to me in the Afterward that both the Publisher and Producer disavow themselves from the book's central topic. Kind of a 'we don't think you should do this, but we this this should be discussed'.
Anything like this in the new edition?
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Nope...although I LOVED that disclaimer! Gutless swine...it was one of their best selling books, too...
I cleaned up some of the language, too...that is, I took out the edits from Wilderness Press...
We're putting together a companion DVD for mid-summer on carrying a gun in the backcountry, an expansion of the TBD episode combined with some ideas from TRAIL SAFE on that whole decision tree thing. The DVD will go into depth about carry styles, gun and ammo selection, some trail-specific issues (like the whole idea of an armed retreat down a steep trail), concealaed vs. open carry...it should be pretty cool. Anytime I get to rant about revolver is fun...
Michael B
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;D ;D Another excellent episode. When out in the wilderness I carry my Taurus Judge Magnum with a mixture of lead shot (#4) and buckshot (000) or (00). ;D ;D
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When I do the DVD, the Taurus Judge will figure big time...I like the thing!
mb
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Mr. Bane,
Excellent episode!!!
I could not believe my ears when you mentioned the Open Carry method on DR radio. When you said that is was a good idea on TV I almost fell over. It so great to hear someone of your stature finally say that OC has some merit and can be the best way to caary in certain circumstances.
I am sure there are people who will disagree and say "Its not tactical" or "That hurts our cause" blah blah. The fact that it is legal and is a great way to carry the best firearm for your own self defense vs only what you can shove in your pants is where it shines.
Thank you for an amazing line up of great and informative viewing.
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I would have liked some talk on little carbines for backcountry, liike the Kel-Tec SU16, little .22s etc. or even Mini 14s with folding stock.
Problem with the smaller calibers is that while they may be fine for up to deer and 2 legged predators they are NOT adequate for bigger 4 legged predators, they may work on dogs or coyotes but a bear or Mountain lion will crap it out (the gun) along with your watch.
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I think this episode in particular should be required viewing for the idiots in DC.
good job.
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Enjoyed the backcountry show - a lot of good info. One thing that you could have hit on a bit more - it is illegal anywhere in California, as far as I am aware, to carry concealed, including on public lands. There are a lot of hiking trails in the Sierra, and open carry is pretty much a requirement if you're going to carry a firearm at all. I open carry when riding an ATV, and have never had a problem with it. I'd rather somebody see that I have a weapon - might make them think twice before starting something. You're right on about a wheel gun - an S&W Mod. 60, 2 1/8" barrel in .357 mag is my choice - surprisingly easy to shoot well and enough power for most critters.
I may be wrong but I think they just passed a bill concerning national forest and federal ground so we can carry. I have to look at the bill more unless someone can state it better than I can.
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Tom how could that be...if a 357 or 44mag is "fine" in a handgun than how would a mini 14 in 7.62x39 be inadequate? Or a marlin camp carbine in 45acp or a marlin 1894 in a number of calibers? What the heck would you be shootng in a handgun? Bazooka rounds? On the show nothing spectacular was being demonstrated. Nothing over 44mag that I saw.
I would think 1. your going to have better accuracy than a handgun. including small optics. 2. what are the real chances of getting jumped by a bear in the lower 48? What 6 folks a year? 3. not everyone has a CCW or wants one.
I think that a small carbine would be fine.
Because the Kel Tec SU 16 and MANY (most ? ) mini 14's are .223 "little .22's is self explanatory. I don't feel at all under gunned with my AK (7.62X39) Not sure about .45ACP on something as big as a bear but should be enough for lion, we have bears around here but not that many and the Mountain lions are like the Fl. Panthers, they are here but F&G denies it and they are VERY rarely spotted unlike Ca. were they attacked several people last year.
Hand guns are more convenient if you are not specifically hunting, Just like URBAN SD, you need your gun NOW when you need it, a holstered pistol is faster to deploy than an empty chambered rifle even slung over your shoulder.
Your ID space doesn't say where you are but in Maine and NH you have to have a hunting license to carry a loaded rifle in the woods, and in Maine they prohibit Sunday hunting, if you have a loaded rifle in the woods on Sunday you are convicted of poaching, no defense, you will not win. (the game law says " possession of a loaded rifle on Sunday is "prima facie evidence of Sunday hunting")
So open carry.
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Hey guys... I'm in Eastern Europe this week so I am a little slow getting into this great discussion. Thanks for all the feedback.
Two things I want to mention:
1. We generally say that we teach for the street (or trail in this case) and not for court. Young lady gets a knife pulled on her and she has taken the time to equip and train herself: shoot.
2. As for the crossdraw business and "experts" saying its a bad idea..... I just recommended a crossdraw to a student today (I was working with bodyguards in Slovakia). I also told a student a couple of weeks ago that he was foolish to use a crossdraw. You've got to understand that the context of a piece of information is incredibly important.... many students (and too many "experts") fail to get that point. Examples:
-Take a knee when you reload.
-Your primary light should be mounted to your gun.
-Never holster a slide-locked pistol.
In some contexts those are great pieces of information... in others they are dangerous. Students, Instructors and would-be-advice-givers need to keep that in mind. When you hear a piece of information or read it in TacticoolGuns&HandWeapons&AmmoforSwatSoldiers you have to think about whether or not it fits your context. As noted earlier in the thread, sometimes a crossdraw is a bad idea, sometimes it is a great one. I wore one regularly when leading ATV tours or guiding horseback trail rides in the mountains of CO over the past several years. I also used to wear one a lot when in a car for long distances that did not allow for convenient access (or comfortable wear) with strongside carry.
In the wilderness, you generally will have a huge distance advantage when it comes to noticing that someone may be a threat. In the quiki-mart, everyone is always within arms reach anyway.... presentation from a crossdraw holster can be easily fouled by a close quarters attacker and is slower and takes more energy than strongside. It is more possible that you will not a got shot off fast enough, or at all, in response to a close quarters ambush with crossdraw, which is the main reason that I do not recommend it as a first choice in general CCW situations.
-RJP
(PS- we'll cover rifles in a future season/episode... if you guys want to debate calibers, please take it to the general defense area.....)
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I may be wrong but I think they just passed a bill concerning national forest and federal ground so we can carry. I have to look at the bill more unless someone can state it better than I can.
Somewhat wrong. It wasn't a bill/law, just a change in policy. Plus, the change only removed the federal ban from carrying. So, the state law is now in effect: if you can carry in the state, you can carry in a national forest/park. Also, if you CAN'T carry in the state, you also can't carry in a national forest/park.
Unless you're thinking of something else, in which case, nevermind.
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Enjoyed the backcountry show - a lot of good info. One thing that you could have hit on a bit more - it is illegal anywhere in California, as far as I am aware, to carry concealed, including on public lands. There are a lot of hiking trails in the Sierra, and open carry is pretty much a requirement if you're going to carry a firearm at all. I open carry when riding an ATV, and have never had a problem with it. I'd rather somebody see that I have a weapon - might make them think twice before starting something. You're right on about a wheel gun - an S&W Mod. 60, 2 1/8" barrel in .357 mag is my choice - surprisingly easy to shoot well and enough power for most critters.
You are allowed to carry concealed while hunting, or fishing in CA as long as you have a valid hunting license (yes, even while fishing).
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I enjoyed the episode! One of the great things that I get from TBD is that it brings up different scenarios in an "everyday" life. It gets me to thinking about my everyday life.
As far as "back country" is concerned in SD there is very few animals that may seriously endanger your life. HOWEVER, last year I was hunting public ground that runs parallel with the Missouri river and we accidentally crossed onto private land (due to poor signage by the state and ranchers). We almost immediately heard a pickup flying across the field driven by the rancher that owned the land. This was a rush knowing that a butt chewing was coming! We could have quickly walked off to try avoid the situation but that would have only made us look that much more guilty. My father had a similar situation happen to him while retrieving a legally shot deer that ran to onto private land, He was held at gun point by a hired hand until the Game and Fish showed up. NOTE: He had no gun. He left it at the fence he crossed. With this story in the back of my head and a 30-06 A-Bolt slung over my shoulder I was glad I was carrying concealed! As the the pickup approached us I slipped my left hand (yes a south paw) through my bibs and placed it on my XD-40, appearing as to warm my hand. To make a long story short, with much apologizing and respect the rancher seen our sincerity of heart that it was an accident and that we had no intentions to trespass. Despite the positive outcome in this situation, the possibility always exists that another rancher may not have been so understanding and it could have gotten ugly quick!
You may or may not have deadly animal threats, but a run in with a angry land owner or another hunter is a situation I am more likely to deal with. It may be something for you to consider depending on where you live/ hunt.
-Dustin
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Loved seeing the revolvers. One thing great about them is if you are ambushed by a four legged predator you will be able to continue firing if the animal is on top of you. This comes in real handy in bear country. I do not go into a forest without at least having a .357 magnum or larger caliber revolver.
+1 on the revolvers. I have come to the forum to inquire about the kydex OWB holster that Rob wore on the show. Who makes it? I'd love to have one for a few of DA revolvers I rotate through for hiking trips. I've found that premium leather holsters become scratched and dinged up in short order after leaving the city for a good trek in the woods.
I also want to complement you guys for incorporating defense concepts as it relates to a lady's point of view on the show. The last four episodes this season have been great topics of conversation for the wife and I. Believe me, that in itself is a compliment to your production. I've accomplished more headway in 30 days of watching the show with the little lady than I have in years prior to reinforce the importance of situational awareness.
Great show and keep up the good work.
Moga
Atlanta, GA
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The shoulder rig Rob used can be found here: http://www.survivalsheath.com/holsters/index.htm
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so another slight twist on the backwoods discussion when it comes to four legged predators is are there liability or other legal considerations. IE I shot an animal I don't have a license, proper tag, or it is out of season. I think of this especially in your long-range shot, at that distance did you really "retreat" if it was a two legged predator and you cocked the revolver like you did because you needed a precise shot, you just (according to recent pro arms podcast) greatly increased your exposure to a liability lawsuit. Now a mountain lion doesn't have a family to come after you but you could have a state or an environmentalist group come after you. I mean this is a far fetched scenario but do you know if there has ever been a negative ramification when someone took action to protect themselves?
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Actually Meta it's a darn good question. We all know, (or should) that if you just dropped some lowlife robber, rapist etc. you SHOULD let the Cops know about it and get a lawyer,(it's RUDE to leave bodies laying around with out explanation). But lets say you were just attacked by a Mt. lion, like the hikers and bicyclists in Ca. but YOU kill IT, no hunting license because you are a hiker, not a hunter, animal may be "protected" in that particular area.What actions SHOULD you take in the aftermath of a lethal force encounter with a 4 legged predator ?
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so another slight twist on the backwoods discussion when it comes to four legged predators is are there liability or other legal considerations. IE I shot an animal I don't have a license, proper tag, or it is out of season. I think of this especially in your long-range shot, at that distance did you really "retreat" if it was a two legged predator and you cocked the revolver like you did because you needed a precise shot, you just (according to recent pro arms podcast) greatly increased your exposure to a liability lawsuit. Now a mountain lion doesn't have a family to come after you but you could have a state or an environmentalist group come after you. I mean this is a far fetched scenario but do you know if there has ever been a negative ramification when someone took action to protect themselves?
Actually Meta it's a darn good question.
I don't think so, because I don't think it really matters in the context of the choice to act. Self defense comes down to perception of need. Any responsible discussion should keep that in the forefront. Legal considerations are an issue, but they should never be a significant factor in the moment that you PERCEIVE A NEED to defend yourself.
I can't outrun a mountain lion. There is "retreat" if I'm not a LOT closer to a car/building than the cat is to me.
Cocking the revolver was about the need for precision not premeditated action. Realistic training reveals when you need or don't need to cock any handgun (if it is an option). In most self-defense situations it isn't a factor and isn't recommended... the situation shown was an exception.
Now, when these issues might matter is in the aftermath of the shooting. Deciding what to do afterwards is going to be a factor of personal judgement and local regulations.... which, if you are carrying a firearm in the backcountry, you should be aware of.
If anyone has factual information in regard to these types of incidents, please post...
-RJP
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I don't think so, because I don't think it really matters in the context of the choice to act. Self defense comes down to perception of need. Any responsible discussion should keep that in the forefront. Legal considerations are an issue, but they should never be a significant factor in the moment that you PERCEIVE A NEED to defend yourself.
I can't outrun a mountain lion. There is "retreat" if I'm not a LOT closer to a car/building than the cat is to me.
Cocking the revolver was about the need for precision not premeditated action. Realistic training reveals when you need or don't need to cock any handgun (if it is an option). In most self-defense situations it isn't a factor and isn't recommended... the situation shown was an exception.
Now, when these issues might matter is in the aftermath of the shooting. Deciding what to do afterwards is going to be a factor of personal judgement and local regulations.... which, if you are carrying a firearm in the backcountry, you should be aware of.
If anyone has factual information in regard to these types of incidents, please post...
-RJP
That was what I wanted to get to. While specifics will vary by location and situation, are there any "rules of thumb" that would apply that you would like to get out for discussion or general information ?
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Thanks, Tom... Just wanted to make sure we were focused on those questions from the right perspective... for me, it is a matter of responsibility to know ahead of time what the laws and regulations are and to plan on abiding by them whenever possible. That goes for just about everything, use of force against an animal included. That's all I've got. Like I said, I think the best thing to help us all prepare would be for first hand facts to be added to the thread.
-RJP
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Rules of thumb are tough, but let me give you mine:
• If I have fired a gun or a gun has been fired in an altercation, I will notify the authorities as quickly as possible.
• If I have to shoot an animal "close-in," that is on Front Range trails, I will immediately notify Fish & Game/Sheriff's Department.
• If I'm way out in the outback and I have to kill an animal, I will notify Fish & Game when I get out of the woods.
mb
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Took this long to get Trailsafe out again? :o
You probably don't remember Mike, but I asked about it a few years back as I was recommending it to my female outdoorsy-type friends (who appreciated it) and was finding it hard to get used copies. Now I can restock. Thanks so much for putting in the time, the DVD sounds great too.
As for defense against animals, up here in AK that kind of shoot is called "defense of life or property" and you must immediately (well, as soon as practical) notify Fish and Game. There's even a form, yea paperwork. You also have to recover the hide or meat (depending on the species) and surrender it to the State. The meat goes to charity if usable. If you are unable to do the dressing out, you are allowed to get assistance.
If you happen to need to drop a bear, you can at least go bid on the hide later at the annual Rondy Fur Auction.
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Date: 3/12/2009 7:38:25 AM
Subject: holster
On the episode concerning wilderness defense a hard chest holster was shown holding a small revolver. Who made the holster and what model? As I am rather large and usually wear bibs instead of pants / no belt, holsters like what I viewed could be very handy, especially in the wild as was shown.
THE BEST DEFENSE is a good show exposing potential problems that could be seen by anyone anytime, and most people haven’t thought about how to deal with the situations. Many gun owners probably have thought about the ‘what ifs’ of home intrusion but not considered the post shooting dilemma. We live in a world where bad things happen anywhere and I think you do a good job of exposing this and cause people to think about what to do IF. As you point out, good training and practice is the best not all of us has access to the training but your show reveals weakness in our personal environment. I think you do a good job of going over the different guns used and the good and bad points of each and it is easy to see there is no Best GUN for all situations except for the one you may have at hand when you need it.
Kregg G