The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Handguns => Topic started by: Greg Ashley on March 07, 2009, 06:39:05 PM
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Has anyone heard of any research related to probability of permanent hearing loss resulting from using a handgun for self-defense while in an enclosed space (e.g., inside cars, small rooms, elevators, etc.)? Some of the self-defense techniques being shown on TV and in gun press leave the gun quite to the ears. Secondly, are barrel length and hearing loss correlated?
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I remember an episode of "the Sopranos" I think it was where somebody pops another guy while their sitting in a car together with the windows up....the shooter winces in pain and you can tell the concussion was LOUD.
That's why I always walk around with my earmuffs on..........and a condom on..... cuz...you never know......eh?
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I remember an episode of "the Sopranos" I think it was where somebody pops another guy while their sitting in a car together with the windows up....the shooter winces in pain and you can tell the concussion was LOUD.
That's why I always walk around with my earmuffs on..........and a condom on..... cuz...you never know......eh?
;D LOL
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Hearing loss is a huge problem wherever you have guns going bang and a set of eardrums nearby. Police departments, the military and causual shooters all suffer permanent hearing loss over time. In SD situations in the home it is a wise decision to have a pair of good electronic earmuffs right next to your gun. This story came out just a week or two ago regards the military coming back from the mid east....read the entire story...
http://www.courant.com/news/nationworld/chi-t6-hearing-loss_0220feb20,0,664773.story?track=rss
From the Chicago Tribune
GIs are back, but at a loss
—Brian Newsome, McClatchy/ Tribune Newspapers
February 20, 2009
A survey of soldiers returning from Iraq found that as many as 1 in 4 had some level of hearing damage. A study in the American Journal of Audiology found that soldiers deployed to Iraq from April 2003 to March 2004 were 50 times more likely to suffer acoustic trauma than those who were not deployed. Such statistics have prompted the military to rethink how it handles hearing cases, and Ft. Carson, Colo., is on the front lines of that change.
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I think there's a big difference in exposure and hearing damage between military personel in an active
environment and someone firing a few rounds in self defense. It's not fair to compare the two.
I will admit that I hear better with my electronic muffs on, however, the sound isn't directional. I can
hear people speaking better but I can't tell what direction it is coming from. If something goes "bump"
in the night and I investigate, I want to be able to tell exactly where the noise is coming from.
If I have to fire a few rounds I'll live with any resultant damage........but I will live. ;)
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As I've said before on other threads, hearing loss is cumulative. In other words, the damage builds up over time and can eventually be quite severe. Loud sounds above 90-100 db cause hearing loss, period. The extent of the loss and the frequencies lost are different from person to person. Loud music, industrial noise, traffic noise and gunfire are some sources of noise above the 90-100 levels and will cause damage. Gunfire is well above 165 db and should be avoided.
I wear protection even when I'm hunting at least on my strong side but I don't hunt much large game anymore so sight hunting is fine for me.
I suppose the sound wave could be more severe in a confined space such as a car, you would have to get a meter to determine the increase in levels though. Shooting in self defense is a situation that can not be avoided and worrying about your hearing is something you won't be thinking about!
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WHAT??? What? ;D
Seriously, I have some hearing loss from several years of hunting during Dove season (would usually shoot about 25 to 40 rounds in a day). I also engaged in listening to my walkman way too loud as a young adult, and several years working in manufacturing facilities. I always wore hearing protection at work, but I know that the years of loud music and hunting a couple of times a year have done their damage. I now have a permenant tone noise in both ears (the left is the worst, the right just a little) I would suspect that shooting a few rounds in your house or car would cause some damage, but I would rather have that than loose my life or the life of a loved one.
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My favorite of all time on this subject: Watch the Matrix, or Terminator. They're busting off a dozen rounds inside a stainless steel walled elevator. The bullets wouldnt even have to hit! Everybody would be on the ground crying!
It's not a joke though. Last year I fired 12ga. 3.5" shells out of a short barrel gun about 7 times one day. Knew it was hurting my ears (along with my shoulder!), but kept hunting.
Over a year later if I hear more than one of two shots from anything bigger than a 22 my ears are killing me. I've gotta wear GOOD muffs at the range! Look for 30db reduction or more when your shopping. You'll be shocked how much it improves your shooting!
The much needed standard disclaimer though: To many people on this site "know" everything though. And only reply if they see an oportunity to show off. So before they point it out... What I said is ALL WRONG!
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Loud sounds above 90-100 db cause hearing loss, period.
+1
Deaf or Dead? I choose deaf, but...
I do EVERYTHING I can to protect my ears now to save up the cumulative points I have left for when I don't have a choice. And I am trying to teach my kids before they learn the hard way.
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It's good to get your kids involved early. As we age, we normally will lose some hearing at higher frequencies, better to save what we have for as long as we can. Children and even your family pet are suseptable to hearing loss as well.
I wear plugs and muffs at the range, combined.
I agree with deaf over dead, I can learn to read lips or sign but breathing is necessary for both! ;)
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Hearing loss is a huge problem wherever you have guns going bang and a set of eardrums nearby. Police departments, the military and causual shooters all suffer permanent hearing loss over time. In SD situations in the home it is a wise decision to have a pair of good electronic earmuffs right next to your gun. This story came out just a week or two ago regards the military coming back from the mid east....read the entire story...
Um i dont know about you but when someone or something is in my house, i want all of my sense active to seek out the intruder and eliminate said threat. so earmuffs? that's a negative,
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Walker Game ears
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Badgers, I think you might have the wrong impression here. We all have varying degrees of experience, and your experience can and probably should differ from anyone else's. We do not try to make it personal but yes, sometimes it is, or at least comes across that way.
Hopefully that sets you to rights about the folks here - we can all learn from each other in so many ways. That is why I am here.
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Walker Game ears
+1 BIONIC HEARING! (yes I am shouting on purpose). Anything to give you an advantage.
Who was it that said "If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck" ?? Sounds like a pretty good modern intrepetation of the art of war.
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Always wear hearing protection if you will be shooting, Electronic ear muffs are less expensive than hearing aids and more convenient than saying "WHAT?" all the time. I started shooting when I was about 9, I never even HEARD of wearing ear protection until I got into the Marines. Then I spent 8 years running CNC punch presses even WITH ear plugs the cumulative damage of 110+ decibels has left me with 50% hearing loss in my GOOD ear, the other one is 75%.
And that constant ringing gets annoying.
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Always wear hearing protection if you will be shooting, Electronic ear muffs are less expensive than hearing aids and more convenient than saying "WHAT?" all the time. I started shooting when I was about 9, I never even HEARD of wearing ear protection until I got into the Marines. Then I spent 8 years running CNC punch presses even WITH ear plugs the cumulative damage of 110+ decibels has left me with 50% hearing loss in my GOOD ear, the other one is 75%.
And that constant ringing gets annoying.
HUH? ;D
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From a lifetime of loud engines, chain saws, farm equipment, loud stereos, loud farm animals, hunting, and a multitude of other assaults on my ears I feel like I'm closing the gate after the cows are out when I put on the "ears." However, with the first word of response being "huh" most of the time I feel the need to protect what I have left.
All that aside, I'm not going to worry about going deaf over shooting a handful of shots in an enclosed space if it means protecting life ... mine or someone else's.
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I'm not sure myself about ever using the muff's for home defense... I happen to have ones that amplify normal sounds, and cut out anything loud (like the game ear's do). Thinking about it, I guess they could help in home defense, but at least the ones I have throw off my depth perception of sounds. Its harder to tell where the sounds came from and how far away it was. A potentially deadly change when your in the dark facing a potentially armed adversary.
In just about any other civilian situation I HIGHLY recommend everyone get the best protection you can fit in the budget! From what I've seen, brand names dont mean much, look for the stats! Muffs OR plugs, my advise would be look for 30db reduction or better! Some muffs over $300 still only reduce by 23db.!
I'd bet many people will suprise themselves with the improvement in their groups at the range by wearing double protection!
Especially when that one guy is there popping off rounds from what sounds like a cannon... You know him! :)
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In my experience, while hunting dove every shotgun blast is ringing ears, if only for 20 seconds, I don't wear protection in the field. But while hunting deer, even with a .270 rifle I've never experienced ringing ears, ever, I shoot get up and can hear fine. I attribute this to adrenaline, dove hunting is so repetitive that you don't get that same rush as shooting a deer, and I don't think you can begin to compare the noise level of a 12 gauge to a .270. Is it possible that you adrenaline level protects you from those effects, or does it just stop your ears from ringing, is the damage being done even though its not perceivable. I wouldn't bet my hearing that it isn't, but I wouldn't be worried about firing a weapon in the house on one occasion to protect myself. Any possibility that wearing protection hampers my ability to combat an intruder isn't worth it, what the worst that could happen, you save your family and you but you got to yell across the dinner table from then on. Hell, I do enough yelling now that it wouldn't make a difference. ;D
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Is it possible that you adrenaline level protects you from those effects, or does it just stop your ears from ringing, is the damage being done even though its not perceivable.
The damage is done, just at a frequency that's above or below your perceived spectrum of hearing. I get tested twice yearly because of my job and believe me, I lose hearing every year because of age, environment, etc...we can only prevent acute hearing loss by protecting ourselves.
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I'd bet many people will suprise themselves with the improvement in their groups at the range by wearing double protection!
Especially when that one guy is there popping off rounds from what sounds like a cannon... You know him! :)
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Sorry, but I REALLY like my 3" Bond Arms .357 derringer. "Are you talking to me, are you talking to me?! Seriously, I really don't know, I didn't hear you the first time." ;D
fightingquaker13
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:) We've all been "that guy" at one time or another... People usually leave about 3 benches on either side of you shooting a M44... What can you do? Tape a pop bottle on the end of the barrel? ;D ;D ;D
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S&W 500 in the next lane will get your attention real fast!
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S&W 500 in the next lane will get your attention real fast!
That would be me ... if only the range would let me >:(
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That would be me ... if only the range would let me >:(
It was indoors at the S&W range. Guy squeeze one off with one hand and nearly broke his own nose...I think I pooped a little... ;D
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Um i dont know about you but when someone or something is in my house, i want all of my sense active to seek out the intruder and eliminate said threat. so earmuffs? that's a negative,
I said electronic earmuffs. They have the capacity to actually bump the amplitude of sound so they are in fact a plus. They clip when the level exceeds damage thresholds. They are indeed recommended for SD by quite a number of trainers. Also it has been mentioned that exposure to gunshots results in cumulative damage. Yes it is cumulative in the sense that the more you are exposed the more damage. But a SINGLE incident of a gunshot in confined areas can do absolute and permanent damage. To the extent of extreme tinnitus and loss. ONCE is all it takes. As to alive and deaf vs dead, sure alive is good. But there are quite a number of suicides over tinnitus. So to keep a pair of ELECTONIC muffs by your SD gun is a wise choice.
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Yes, electronic muffs can make you hear better, once again, It doesn't help much if you can't tell what
direction the sound is coming from. If walking down a hallway and you come to the end, do you turn left or
right? I can hear really friggin well but I can't tell where the sound is coming from. I guess I'll at least have
a 50% chance of getting it right. I think I'll error on the side of life. Keep my muffs for the range and mowing
grass.
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Decibel (Loudness) Comparison Chart
Here are some interesting numbers, collected from a variety of sources, that help one to understand the volume levels of various sources and how they can affect our hearing.
Environmental Noise
Weakest sound heard 0dB
Whisper Quiet Library 30dB
Normal conversation (3-5') 60-70dB
Telephone dial tone 80dB
City Traffic (inside car) 85dB
Train whistle at 500', Truck Traffic 90dB
Subway train at 200' 95dB
Level at which sustained exposure may result in hearing loss 90 - 95dB
Power mower at 3' 107dB
Snowmobile, Motorcycle 100dB
Power saw at 3' 110dB
Sandblasting, Loud Rock Concert 115dB
Pain begins 125dB
Pneumatic riveter at 4' 125dB
Even short term exposure can cause permanent damage - Loudest recommended exposure WITH hearing protection 140dB
Jet engine at 100', Gun Blast 140dB
Death of hearing tissue 180dB
Loudest sound possible 194dB
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Yes, electronic muffs can make you hear better, once again, It doesn't help much if you can't tell what
direction the sound is coming from. If walking down a hallway and you come to the end, do you turn left or
right? I can hear really friggin well but I can't tell where the sound is coming from. I guess I'll at least have
a 50% chance of getting it right. I think I'll error on the side of life. Keep my muffs for the range and mowing
grass.
Yes you can tell direction, you are still hearing through BOTH ears so your directional sense is not impaired.
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Yes, you are hearing with both sides, through a speaker, with a mic on the outside of the muffs. The
mic only picks up the sound and has no way of relaying direction(or distance) into the speakers. You
might be able to tell left vs right by which is louder but I think it would be difficult since they are so
sensitive to sound. It boiles down to doing whatever you feel comfortable with. If you can gauge direction
and distance with electronic muffs, good for you, I can't.
I presently use Pro Ears. Kinda pricey. Anybody have experience with more economical electronic muffs?
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Yes, you are hearing with both sides, through a speaker, with a mic on the outside of the muffs. The
mic only picks up the sound and has no way of relaying direction(or distance) into the speakers. You
might be able to tell left vs right by which is louder but I think it would be difficult since they are so
sensitive to sound. It boiles down to doing whatever you feel comfortable with. If you can gauge direction
and distance with electronic muffs, good for you, I can't.
I presently use Pro Ears. Kinda pricey. Anybody have experience with more economical electronic muffs?
That's the same way your ears work. Kind of off topic but that's how your eyes judge distance as well, the off set to either side of your nose gives an angle for triangulation, same principle with optical range finders.
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(http://ac4.yt-thm-a03.yimg.com/image/44955f717a4869b0)
Walker "GAME EARS"
"I can hear a mouse fart at a hundred yards!"
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(http://ac4.yt-thm-a03.yimg.com/image/44955f717a4869b0)
Walker "GAME EARS"
"I can hear a mouse fart at a hundred yards!"
OK ... Who threw Haz in the Nair vat again?
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It was indoors at the S&W range. Guy squeeze one off with one hand and nearly broke his own nose...I think I pooped a little... ;D
;D I almost passed a black jelly bean through my nose when I read that. At least I wasn't taking a drink so my keyboard is still dry.