The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Handguns => Topic started by: Ksail101 on March 12, 2009, 10:14:20 AM
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First off I just want to say to everyone, All my fellow Rangers and those of you I havent had much of a chance to correspond with yet, Hello. Sorry I am not on very much the last few months, I do come on here still all the time and read the forums but I just dont have the chance to reply and follow up on those replies. New job, injury, and family craziness (any free time is spent at the range or sleeping) has kept me from here. I am hopefully going to start making more time to visit with my other family here...
Anyway I have a question for all you gurus and longtime shooters, and maybe the newbies that know more than me, Why and how did the 1911 evolve to a flat mainspring housing? I got to shoot a Springfield GI at the little indoor range that is by my house this last weekend and found it way more comfortable to me cause of the Arched Mainspring than the standard flat. The 1911 seems to me, and many others, a very comfortable, easy (easier) to shoot accurately than many others, but I found the Arched mainspring fill my hand better than the standard (as of the last 15 years) flat, and helps me get back on target quicker.
All other guns, well most poly guns anyway, Glock, XD, M&P, FN FNP, they all have an arched back strap. Even the first pistol that I learned to shoot the Beretta M9 has a simi-arched back-strap. If I shoot my Kimber and then move right to my Glock I will shoot my Glock, high. So I have been thinking if I switch my mainspring out, they would be more similar than the polar opposites that they are now.
What are your thoughts to this? And if you know the reason for the flat mainspring please chime in. I heard Mr. Bane speak briefly on the podcast about this, which was odd cause it was something that I was thinking about.
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Good to have you back Ksail...
Most of the plastic pistols have interchangable BS now to help them fit more shooters. I'm not sure why the 1911 MSH was changed but I do know, that for my small chubby hand the flat works best (short trigger too). If I knew how to post pictures you would be able to see that my CCW LW Colt OM has had the memory bump of the grip safety built up to 2 or more times the original height so that I can deactivate it with my high thumb hold - UGLY but effective for me.
FWIW
Richard
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From the History of the 1911 Pistol....It was flat in the original design by John Browning.
After World War I, the Army's Ordnance Department evaluated the Colt .45's combat performance. They recommended the following changes:
1. Wider front sight to develop "Patridge-type" of sights, allowing the shooter to quickly align both front and rear sights under various lighting conditions.
2. Longer hammer spur. Both changes 2 and 3 work together to prevent the web between the thumb and the forefinger being pinched between the hammer and the safety spur when the gun is fired.
3. Longer grip-safety spur.
4. Arched spring housing fills the shooter's hand and checkering backstrap provides a better grip.
5. Relief cuts in the frame around the trigger allowing easier access to the trigger.
6. Shorter trigger with knurled face to avoid the trigger finger from slipping.
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I have both an arched and a flat. I find that overall I shoot better with the arched one. Some prefer one over the other, and I believe that is more about your hands.
As to why it was changed... I have no idea.
-Bidah
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Darned interesting question!
And one that I've been pondering for a while. When Bill Wilson and I wrote THE COMBAT .45 AUTO back in the dawn of freakin' time, we said a flat mainspring housing and long trigger fit more hands than the 1911A1 config of an arched mainspring housing and short trigger. Remember, the first 1911s had (I think I remember this correctly) a flat mainspring housing and a long steel trigger. At the military's request, an arched mainspring housing/short trigger were substituted on the 1911A1 (the military thought the flat/long pointed "low").
I believe it was Col. Cooper who started the stampede the other way. I shot Cooper's LW Commander, his last carry gun, at the Col.'s request just before he died, and it had a flat MSH/long trigger.
My experience over the years has been that there's not a heck of a lot of difference between the two. If anything, I find the arched/short tend to point a little faster. The flat/long combo definitely looks cooler, and hey, what counts?
Michael B
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Hey, Ksail, good to hear from you. You have been missed.
Like Timothy posted, JMB originally designed the flat housing.
I think the A1 design changes were mostly 'ergonomic' for what the military thought was best for the average soldier's hands.
I'm with Richard.
For me, a flat housing with short (maybe medium) length trigger works best. They are usually the first things I change on a 1911.
8)
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Here's the deal...John Browning designed the gun with a flat mainspring housing. The military decided to f*@k with something that wasn't broke. Engineers and the government are always doing that...trying to "Fix" something that ain't broke!
It's as it was meant to be....flat!
Nuf said.....I qualified "Marksman" in the Navy with an 1911A1, I re-qualified "Expert" with a tricked out Colt with a flat MSH. I would suggest I liked em flat myself...
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Here's the deal...John Browning designed the gun with a flat mainspring housing. The military decided to f*@k with something that wasn't broke. Engineers and the government are always doing that...trying to "Fix" something that ain't broke!
It's as it was meant to be....flat!
Nuf said.....I qualified "Marksman" in the Navy with an 1911A1, I re-qualified "Expert" with a tricked out Colt with a flat MSH. I would suggest I liked em flat myself...
I thought I sensed a little bit of a bias there, Tim. ;D
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I thought I sensed a little bit of a bias there, Tim. ;D
Maybe!
Actually, I've been working with engineers for thirty years now and might have met 5 that could wipe their own butts with out getting poop on their hands....and the military ain't much smarter, that's why I left after one hitch....that and the abject poverty! >:(
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Maybe!
Actually, I've been working with engineers for thirty years now and might have met 5 that could wipe their own butts with out getting poop on their hands....and the military ain't much smarter, that's why I left after one hitch....that and the abject poverty! >:(
I hear ya...I hear ya...been there and done that.......
My last boss was an EE (damn good man, but clueless about the arena he was in). I did all of my job and half of his. But he had the good sense to know it and left me alone.
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Just a little additional info about my small chubby hands I was thinking about today. When I was golfing once a week I found that when I bought golf gloves a medium cadet (short fingers) fit best. I have always used a FMSH but my GS turned me on to the short trigger. I've also stated before that the Swenson style TS doesn't work for me. I have had to have the thumb lever/shelf or whetever you call it extended about 1/4" past the front and widened and extended back to almost the back edge perpendicular to the pin that extends thru the hammer. I have never seen another TS like mine but I am sure others with small hands/short thumbs could benefit from this mod.
FWIW
Richard
PS: I'm retired from Ohio Dept. of Trans. construction dept where I worked with PE's an dyou can tell an engineer....but you can't tell him much!!!!!
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I have normal size hands for a big guy and found that thinner grip panels really helped me. It feels right and everything is where I need it to be, narrows the gun down to about the width of the slide. The grips screws and bushings need to be replaced with shorter versions, usually come with the grips.
Engineers can be led to water and be taught to drink from the fountain.....THE COMMON SENSE NEEDS TO BE JAMBED DOWN THEIR THROATS..... ;D
I hate it when people lose their jobs but this week we rid our selves of 4 guys, all frat boys with poop on their hands and two months salary in their pockets....
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Just a little additional info about my small chubby hands I was thinking about today. When I was golfing once a week I found that when I bought golf gloves a medium cadet (short fingers) fit best. I have always used a FMSH but my GS turned me on to the short trigger. I've also stated before that the Swenson style TS doesn't work for me. I have had to have the thumb lever/shelf or whetever you call it extended about 1/4" past the front and widened and extended back to almost the back edge perpendicular to the pin that extends thru the hammer. I have never seen another TS like mine but I am sure others with small hands/short thumbs could benefit from this mod.
FWIW
Richard
PS: I'm retired from Ohio Dept. of Trans. construction dept where I worked with PE's an dyou can tell an engineer....but you can't tell him much!!!!!
I'd like to see pic's if you got 'em.
Your safety sounds like something I might be interested in.
I have medium sized hands and a standard or long trigger works, but I found I had better control when Bullseye shooting with the short. I have a Springfield Armory 1911 with slim grips and will be changing the trigger soon.
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The arched MSH hits near the bottom of my hand and leaves a void between the center of my palm and the backstrap. My hand isn't that big, it just doesn't fit the arched housing. One of the first things I bought for my MK IV was a flat housing. I would try one if the arch were higher up on the housing.
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PegLeg45 Wish I could post pictures but I haven't a clue!
Sorry,
Richard
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KSail,
I went back and re-read your original post and after my little rant offer this for information.
I qualified on the 1911 in both its forms because it was then the militarys standard sidearm. It's all we had and as a squid, any time at a range was quality time because we didn't get to do it that often. Sailors generally don't carry a sidearm, nor are they required to qualify on one. I also gained Marksman on the M14 as well for no other reason than to shoot free ammuntion that had been sitting in the armory for years and years.
I learned to shoot it well and never really thought about it until I re-read your post. After I got out, the first gun I bought was a Beretta 92 or the grand daddy to the M9. I bought it because it was cool, you could load it on Monday and shoot till Tuesday with the 15 round mags and I was 22 years old! After thinking about it, it probably took me a couple thousand rounds before I could shoot the thing consistantly but, once I figured it out I could drive tacks with the friggin thing.
Your probably right, the A1 arch feels better because the muscle memory in your hand is tuned to the feel of it. It's not a hard swap and there are a bunch of folks who sell them, some with beveled mag well extensions for race guns and such.
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PegLeg45 Wish I could post pictures but I haven't a clue!
Sorry,
Richard
That's quite alright.....I think I get your drift on what it would look like.
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Sorry just got off work so now I can reply again.
I read someone mentioned thin grips. I have fairly large hands size 10 or 11 depending on glove. I think thin grips Arched mainspring would be something I would like to try.
I dont know, I am a little younger and the guns I have put the most rounds down range with are Glock XD ect, most poly\modern handguns. So I think when I shot that Springer this weekend it felt really natural to me. A 1911 always feels different to me. It is something I have to get used to when I it pick up, long heavy front and now that I know what to feel for, flat grip. Which is opposite to people who have been shooting alot longer than me where the 1911 is natural and Glocks are odd.
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Sorry just got off work so now I can reply again.
I read someone mentioned thin grips. I have fairly large hands size 10 or 11 depending on glove. I think thin grips Arched mainspring would be something I would like to try.
I dont know, I am a little younger and the guns I have put the most rounds down range with are Glock XD ect, most poly\modern handguns. So I think when I shot that Springer this weekend it felt really natural to me. A 1911 always feels different to me. It is something I have to get used to when I it pick up, long heavy front and now that I know what to feel for, flat grip. Which is opposite to people who have been shooting alot longer than me where the 1911 is natural and Glocks are odd.
Find what's comfortable to YOU kid, that's what matters. It should be a pleasure to pick up a gun and shoot, if it feels odd, that ain't fun, don't let the ramblings of a grumpy old squid pursuade you otherwise...every once in a while even my own kid tells me to shut the f**k up!
Enjoy the sport with what ever tools you want to use. There probably isn't one guy on this forum who has a "Stock" gun anymore unless is still in the original box!!!!!
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I have one of these with a slim grip set-up. You could throw an arched housing in there and bang away. ;)
http://www.springfield-armory.com/armory.php?model=8
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I have one of these with a slim grip set-up. You could throw an arched housing in there and bang away. ;)
http://www.springfield-armory.com/armory.php?model=8
Nice!!! Yeah, I love shooting 1911's so I hope noone thinks that I dont. I have fun with really anything that goes bang. But I do prefer a Glock 19 for carry everyday cause I feel I can shoot it better, and I feel that is what you need in high stress. I would like to experiment more though.
Commander size 1911 w\arched mainspring may just be a future everyday carry. I have always felt that once I can master the 1911 I will never carry anything else. I have a Kimber Desert Warrior for those that dont know, and I have about 5000 rounds through it, but that is all I have through a 1911 style gun really. And to me, and I have said something about this on here before, that a 1911 is for experts. There is alot more to do when you pull it during a situation. But you get the performance that is almost double any gun. Trigger, sights, accuracy, if you master it and carry it, it is like the ultimate defender. Kinda like a samurai to a machete. Both will get the job done but one does it with Grace.
Update:
Also I wanted to add one more thing, Mr. Bane a spur hammer and no front cocking serrations is way cooler than the more modern Commander style and the "tactical" front serrations. IMO. Retro is the way go.
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If you promise not to tell anyone...........
I am and always will be a 1911 man to the bone.....it was my 'first love' in the handgun world. That being said, my everyday carry gun is a Glock 27. It is lighter, smaller, and a little easier to conceal under a plain t-shirt in my mostly hot climate. I do wish the arch on the backstrap was a teeny bit smaller....but it's OK.
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If you promise not to tell anyone...........
I am and always will be a 1911 man to the bone.....it was my 'first love' in the handgun world. That being said, my everyday carry gun is a Glock 27. It is lighter, smaller, and a little easier to conceal under a plain t-shirt in my mostly steamy, wet, blazingly hot climate. I do wish the arch on the backstrap was a teeny bit smaller....but it's OK.
Slight adjustment on the adjectives..... ;)
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Slight adjustment on the adjectives..... ;)
You got that right, pal.......and it started up about....oh let's see.......YESTERDAY........ ;)
**edit**
That's why I don't carry IWB very much.
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Hey PegLeg- This is way off topic but have bought one of those Taurus Judges to defend yourself from those Water Moccasins. If I still lived down there I would say the hell with a FMJ you need some .410 shot shell action to survive. Those things ATTACK. I tried to kill as many as I could while I was down there. LOL. Thats the real self-defense issue down there.
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Hey PegLeg- This is way off topic but have bought one of those Taurus Judges to defend yourself from those Water Moccasins. If I still lived down there I would say the hell with a FMJ you need some .410 shot shell action to survive. Those things ATTACK. I tried to kill as many as I could while I was down there. LOL. Thats the real self-defense issue down there.
We have plenty of moccasins to go around.......and the dang rattlesnake population is spreading rapidly also. My dad has lived on this property for 63 years and had never saw a rattler until two years ago. We kill several a year now.
Where were you? Ft. Benning?
Below are my weapons of choice for said critters..........(I wouldn't mind having a Judge for craps and giggles though)........
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Start with a Colt MK IV Series 70. Add flat MSH, target sights and a recoil buffer.
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh20/alfsauve/Firearms/IMG_1296-1.jpg)
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Where were you? Ft. Benning?
Both Ft. Benning and Ft. Gordon. Both for pretty long periods of time. About half my Mil career I was in GA.