The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Defense and Tactics => Topic started by: gaterhawk on March 13, 2009, 11:45:00 PM
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I’ve got a question for you guys. I believe this is the proper forum for it.
I was doing a “TACTICAL” walk through of my house a few weeks ago. Every one was gone, so I grabbed the pistol….unloaded it of course, and ran through some scenarios. I use the pistol so I can get a sight picture of the “Zones” in my house. That is when I came across a very possible and scary scenario that I’m not to sure of the best way to handle it. Let me try and set the scenario up for you.
Your in bed, it’s around 2 in the morning. You wake to the sound of glass breaking. You open the pistol safe bolted to the wall next to your side of the bed. These are your tools, a .40S&W semi auto, locked and loaded w/JHP ready to go. You also have a tactical light, 60 lumens on low 220 lumens on high, on/off or, momentary. Your other tools are a tactical knife, cell phone and, an armed wife.
The First thing I do up to this point is get the wife on the phone to 911. You can always tell the dispatcher that it was a falls alarm if that is the case. Ok, you grab the pistol, knife, and light. The knife goes in the waist band of your pj’s, pistol in strong hand, light in weak hand. You proceed to the master bedroom door you pause for just a moment to listen, than open it slowly. Remember, you’re in “low light not, no light.” You peak out the door and see that directly across the living room getting ready to enter in to a hall door way is the bad guy. In his hand you can make out something that looks like a gun. “You plan for the worst, and hope for the best.” This is where it gets hard. Facing the master bedroom door way, and the hall way door every thing between the left of you…”a wall”, and about 10° to your right is a “NO SHOOT ZONE.” The door way to this hall and bad guy is smack dab in the middle of this zone. On the other side of those thin hall walls are you kids bedrooms, with you kids sound a sleep in them. So, that’s the scenario I’m looking at.
This is what I would do first. My first priority is to get the LEOs to get those after burners light. So, I’m going to tell my wife “CODE RED”, at the same time I’m hitting the bad guy with two short momentary shots form the light on high. Hoping the first one gets him to look my way, and the second one as I’m moving to my right in the face to take his night adaption away. The “CODE RED” lets my wife know that the situation is bad, we have an armed bad guy and to relay this to the dispatcher. She will also let the dispatcher know I’m armed and all the important stuff. My goal than becomes stopping the bad guy form advancing in to that hall way. If he gets in to the hall all kind of really bad thing could happen, things like a hostage situation. I think I’m good to this point but, this is where I’m stuck. I need to think of ways to get this guys focus on me and what I’m doing. My biggest concern is that a “gunfight” breaks out, and I have no other option but to return fire in to a zone that I really don’t want to be shooting in to. The idea thing would be to draw him back in to the “GREEN ZONE” where a shooting or a gunfight could play out with better cover and odds. Or the guy just runs through the glass patio doors and out of the house. Anyway, I’m trying to think of ways to get this guy in to a position where he can be dealt with and the threat stopped.
I’m always looking for ways to improve my tactics in the defense of my family and property. What would you guys do in this scenario? Any and all comments would greatly be appreciated.
Thanks
Gater
P.S.
Sorry for the full page article, I just wanted to be as specific as possible.
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Each scenario can be played out so many different ways, that’s why it’s so difficult coming up with the right answer which unfortunately sometimes ya just can’t do.
A great idea on the walk through and figuring out where you’d prefer not to shoot, but, sometimes you may have to use a shot in that zone. That’s where practice comes into play, thinking about deviation control & stuff. One shot, one hit. Think about hitting the target, not about not hitting your target…if that makes sense.
Perhaps some loud verbal commands; GET OUT OF MY HOME, I’VE CALLED THE COPS, I HAVE A GUN AND WILL SHOOT YOU IF YOU DO NOT LEAVE. That really needs to be done anyway, no matter the situation.
This may be a place where some light control could come in handy, something in the master bedroom where you could turn the lights on in the kitchen, children’s hallway or kid’s bathroom perhaps flushing the bad guy your way?
Maybe a shotgun with # 9 shot instead of the .40 S&W so as not to over-penetrate in a zone you really don’t wanna be shootin’ in.
Let’s see what others come up with…
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Flashing the light must be accompanied with loud forceful commands, such as GET OUT! and "I Have a GUN!"
You can also drop to a knee to raise the angle of your shot, keep the light at arm's extension so the BG shoots at it. But with the BG between you and your kids, you cannot wait, you must intervene immediately, no moving him around, trying this or that, it has become an active situation especially if your light reveals that the object is a weapon.
Remember, the light will also remove your night vision too, not as severely as the BG - if you hit his face, but it will throw you off as well.
You can also plan ahead, redo the kids walls with plywood or OSB under the sheetrock, and plan on using frangible ammo. Shotguns will go through sheetrock.
The light control suggestions is also a good one - I had my previous house wired with an X-10 system for that reason. If the BG kills the power though...
Check out the other threads on this site for other ideas - there was one that dealt with this same idea about 2 months ago.
Now let's see what MM&R have to say.
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Have you trained your kids on what actions to take in this sort of event ? If you KNOW what they are going to do it increases your options and safety margin. The other ideas are good, Taking a knee gives you an upward angle of fire AND makes you a smaller target, The videos posted on other threads showing penetration indicate that light (71/2)shot is less likely to retain dangerous levels of energy after penetrating walls while still being capable of doing the job, also, reinforceing the wall of the kids room can bee as simple as placing a book case in front of it with the books in the affected area, the other shelves can be used for more books or whatever.
Would changing the layout be a viable option ?
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"Perhaps some loud verbal commands; GET OUT OF MY HOME, I’VE CALLED THE COPS, I HAVE A GUN AND WILL SHOOT YOU IF YOU DO NOT LEAVE. That really needs to be done anyway, no matter the situation."
During the fluid moments of a confrontation in your home...trying to get all that out of your mouth will waste a lot of relative time that you could and SHOULD be using to neutralize the threat. I don't believe that ANY verbal warning such as the one above "really needs to be done anyway". I am not giving a home intruder ANY sort of warning that may lessen whatever small advantage I may have, especially if the safety of my child is involved.
I spent a lot of years wearing a badge, and have had to clear more than a few homes during burglary calls. Your mouth will be dry, you will taste coppery fear on your tongue, and you will be scared. It is nothing to be ashamed of. If you weren't scared, you weren't normal. I had the advantage of good training, and backup...and still there is fear.
My advice is: Take advantage of ANY advantage you may have. If you have a clear COM shot....take it. If the alternative is letting a crimial who has already broken into YOUR home where YOUR family is...they have already made their own decision about ho his turns out. If you reasonably believe the subject is armed, you take them OUT. Period. No warning. No chance for them to react and shoot you while you are trying to give them a lengthy warning. It is not owed, and in my opinion foolish to do so. It is not your responsibility to take them into custody. It is not your responsibility to warn them. It is YOUR responsibility to protet YOUR family.
Don't take this to mean that I am saying "shoot first and ask questions later"....far from it. But, if as you say there is a subject who you reasonably believe to be armed between you and your children, you must act decisively to remove their ability to hurt you or your children.
That being said....PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE.
Make sure you can ameliorate your chance of striking an innocent by learning to shoot on the move, or repostitiong beds in places in their rooms where they are more protected, and less likely to be in a line of fire i the worst happens.
Map out ambush points in that room from which you could engage.
Wargame it....but don't be concerned with warnings and such. In an encounter such as this, you are already the one who is at a disadvantage, so don't give up on your slim margins by giving warnings.
IMHO
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Seems the warning would be more appropriate WHILE they are trying to get in.
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If you reasonably believe the subject is armed, you take them OUT. Period. No warning. No chance for them to react and shoot you while you are trying to give them a lengthy warning. It is not owed, and in my opinion foolish to do so. It is not your responsibility to take them into custody. It is not your responsibility to warn them. It is YOUR responsibility to protet YOUR family.
+1 Frisco.
Seems the warning would be more appropriate WHILE they are trying to get in.
+1 Tom
My exp. was with an intruder "attempting" to get in the back door, which set off the dog and me armed with my firearm. In that instance, A VERBAL warning, with some very real profanity, short and blunt, (over the barking dog) sent him down the road (thankfully), my wife was already talking to the 911 dispatcher.
Had I not had a dog, had he made it inside, I don't think I would have provided a verbal warning, in the OP scenario.
After talking to the LEO's, filing a report, inspecting the door,,.... needless to say I didn't get back to sleep, and the shock and "reality" of what I would have done set in. It was a bad night after everyone left.
Kids in the house? BG already inside? He's made his choice, and I have to protect my family. I still take training and instruction sessions and will continue to do so.
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Interesting scenario, Gaterhawk. Don't forget...your firearm is not the only tool in the toolbox. If you can't reposition yourself to take the shot without placing your kid's downrange, you might consider some OC spray and a baton. And I agree with the others. Once the intruder is already in your house...there is no time to issue a warning, just to respond to the threat.
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Thanks for the replies guys.
I do agree that this guy need to be neutralized immediately. After running through this thing again today, I took Pathfinder’s advice and dropped to a knee. As soon as I saw the sight picture I thought to my self, this is a shot I could take. After talking with the wife and kids about this scenario the wife affirmed what Frisco and Twyacht said. If the BG is on this end of the house, he is not just here to burglarize us. He has already past all the “hi-dollar” items. She agrees, if you believe him to be armed and headed for the kid’s rooms, you take the shot. No light, no verbal warning, just the bang of your gun and you DON’T MISS. Now after looking back at it I feel a little stupid. I looked at trying to change the angle “HORIZONTLY” any way I could to take that shot with no success. I didn’t even think of changing it “VERTICLY”. Well, tomorrow I’m headed to the range to run some drills and you can bet one of them will be shooting off of one knee. Believe it or not I will sleep better to night. Thanks again guys, this is why I joined this forum. Good sound advice form like minded people.
And Frisco, thank you for your many years of service Sir.
Gater
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This got me thinking about how to use light (and perhaps other means) to affect an intruders movements rather than to illuminate and disorientate.
Is there a lighting device that could be placed down that hallway that produces a blinding and painful light that is motion activated?
This would make it a very uninviting path for the intruder; blinded and exposed.
The light would also encourage him to leave. If he did not, he would be even more disorientated should you need to engage.
I guess a downside is that the bad guy might send a few rounds down the hallway assuming someone was approaching from that way.
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I suppose any motion detector/light combo with spotlights or high wattage floods would probably do the job nicely.
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The high powered lighting might be a good idea (looking at that for myself, now that you guys brought it up, thanks).
Mount two high power flood lights above your bedroom doorway, pointing towards where you want your 'safe lane' area.
Have a battery backup wired in to it just in case of power outage and also be able to control them from your bedroom. If the house is near dark and the strong lights are mounted high, and if you are low on one knee, it may give you a disorienting advantage.
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This still has me thinking.
Now with the sound of voices coming from different locations saying things like. "Tom, get your shot gun and if you see them shoot till they stop moving". Then the sound of a shotgun being racked.
Am starting to visualize a real "fun house" here.
Subsonic sound inducers could be used.
Infrasonic sound, to call it by its right name, has some effect on human "hearers," although it falls a little short of "acute anxiety." The frequency range of normal human hearing is 10-24,000 hertz. Researchers have found that frequencies as low as one hertz (one cycle per second) have a definite effect on the inner ear, somehow short-circuiting its equilibrium and causing dizziness.
Not really expecting anyone to do this..but interesting to explore.
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This still has me thinking.
Now with the sound of voices coming from different locations saying things like. "Tom, get your shot gun and if you see them shoot till they stop moving". Then the sound of a shotgun being racked.
Am starting to visualize a real "fun house" here.
Subsonic sound inducers could be used.
Infrasonic sound, to call it by its right name, has some effect on human "hearers," although it falls a little short of "acute anxiety." The frequency range of normal human hearing is 10-24,000 hertz. Researchers have found that frequencies as low as one hertz (one cycle per second) have a definite effect on the inner ear, somehow short-circuiting its equilibrium and causing dizziness.
Not really expecting anyone to do this..but interesting to explore.
Maybe directional strobe lights too...they will make one dizzy as hell also.
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(http://www.brite-strike.com/images/LawEnforcementHeader.jpg)
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(http://www.brite-strike.com/images/LawEnforcementHeader.jpg)
Here's our next thread...Tactical Balls! ;D ;D ;D
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Here's our next thread...Tactical Balls! ;D ;D ;D
Yeah but how BIG are they and are they made from BRASS? ;D
(Hey, you knew somebody was gonna say it ;) )
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I have been thinking about this one and I have the solution, light and bag guy damage...
Flame thrower, Get one and you don't have to worry about it going through the wall. Well for a minute or two. ;)
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Yeah but how BIG are they and are they made from BRASS? ;D
(Hey, you knew somebody was gonna say it ;) )
Don't know about 'brass'....but here's my last x-ray from a doctors visit............ ;D ;D :o ;D ;D
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The folks here are crazy....imaginative and creative, but still crazy....
Anyway...back to the serious tactical discussion...
I like the Flame Thrower Idea... With the right AV backup this could have a devastating affect on the BG's moral.
From the song Fire by Prodigy we have the title verse..
I am the god of hellfire and I bring you ........ FIRE!!
along with a projection of the head from this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txQQzZ49zZA