The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Defense and Tactics => Topic started by: dnittler on March 14, 2009, 04:50:45 PM
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I want to start training in a fighting art again. I think I have it narrowed down, but I want to hear suggestions before I make the commitment.
Where I am today:
I have been following Michael Bane’s podcast for well over a year, and been watching TBD, and am taking the steps to protect myself and my family: Hardening entrances, planning and communicating with the family members, spending time at the range with the wife and kids, shooting more, and did I mention shooting more. Always looking for that “just one last” gun.
And then I had to start hearing Janich talking about, “when all you’ve got is a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail.” Dammit, I like my hammers!!! But then it hits me. He’s right.
I’m not entirely naïve I suppose. I mean, I carry medium framed handgun, a good light, a good knife, spare ammo, a spare gun, a phone, and stay well out of harms way. But I have completely neglected training in any sort of hand to hand combat. This bothers me, since there is no guarantee that if me or my family are attacked that their will be time (or if it would even be possible if the threat is in the midst of my loved ones) to respond with live fire.
What my question is:
So here I am in the midst of a search of what is best (obviously best is a subjective term) for me and my goals.
Krav Maga
Based on what I have read, Krav Maga passes the tests of what I am looking for in a training system. Effective, simple and fast. There is no Krav Maga training facilities within 300 miles of me. There used to be one here, but it didn’t make it do to lack of popularity.
Brazilian Ju Jitsu
My background is in Brazilian Ju Jitsu (over a decade ago I trained in that for about a year), so I visited their place this morning and watched them train, thinking that would work. I’m sure that it would teach me something, but since I have heard from some pretty reputable sources that you will fight like you train it seems like that might not be the best training for me. I watched as the head instructor was trying to submit a pupil for 20 minutes. The student was on all fours; face down on the ground with the instructor on his back going for various arm bars, wrist locks, chokes etc. Within the rules of the sport, the attacker was not allowed to beat on the back of the guys head so they played a game of chess. I don’t want to program myself that it is OK to “give” an attacker my back as a good defensive move. That is not a sound plan for me, so that rules that discipline out for me. In addition to this, I would have to go “all in”, and hope not to get my head kicked in by bad guy #2 while I’m “rolling” with bad guy #1.
Mixed Martial Arts.
I visited the training facility for a local MMA group. The instructor has a class with six students. I have known the owner of the place since I was a kid, and he said he would let me in to train with the group as the new guy (or maybe he said I can be the mook dummy? Is there really a difference?). One of the students is an active competitor in the local circuit and has won the two last big regional tournaments. The negative of this discipline is that it still as sport with “rules of engagement” unlike the training and mindset of Krav Maga. The advantage I see in this training over the BJJ is that strikes are not only allowed, but they are encouraged.
Would I be well advised to commit to train with a group like this, or should I continue my search of an instructor and system that is better suited to real-life self defense?
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For my .02 cents, I have trained in aikido, started rather innocently years ago after watching some of the early Steven Segal movies, when I was much younger and kinda cocky.
After getting my a** thrown & beat around, and realizing the serious "damage" to the human body that can be inflicted, plus the natural disarming techniques utilizing the premise its easier to re-direct force than it is to try and stop it, aikido carries some valid techniques that are relevant in today's world. I enjoyed my 7+ years training and studying in NC, until a back injury on the job kinda slowed the training down. In a "bum rush" or "from behind" attacks, any type you mentioned have merit.
Most BG's won't have any type of "formal" training, just street thugs and bar fighter types that aikido easily counters.
Plus, the old man said, "If your fighting fair, your tactics stink."
Here's a link. to aikido.
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/34427/martial_arts_aikido_techniques/
In modern training, the moves don't appear so "formal" more "loose and natural". My instructor would train us once a week in street clothes, because,.... that's what we wear 99.999% of the time.
He literally made me very protective of my denim pockets,... :o
Good post, as sometimes we might NOT always be able to get to our firearm.
Nothing like a good piece of hickory,...
Clint Eastwood.
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I want to start training in a fighting art again. I think I have it narrowed down, but I want to hear suggestions before I make the commitment.
Within the rules of the sport,
There's your answer right there.
Krav maga would be excellent, founded in kill or be killed attacks. No instructor sucks, no argument.
Talk with the local instructors and tell them what you're looking for, perhaps they know more and just sell what sells. Perhaps you can work with them on a 1-on-1 basis, no classes, just good basic training. Or find out if the KM instructor is still around, just no school.
Aikido is excellent for redirecting force and especially putting BGs on the floor in some serious pain. Back in the 20's, Aikido's founder, O-Sensei, stood off a Japanese naval officer armed with a sword for 8 hours - the sword never touched him - but then he never attacked and subdued the officer either. Part of the whole "I don't want to be a violent martial art" thing O-Sensei started.
Segal does Hollyweird versions even in real life. IIRC he had to start a new dojo association as the other Aikido groups wouldn't have him and his style. He may have changed though. Be advised, though, that aikido comes with a huge amount of baggage in the form of "worship" of O-Sensei as well as the whole bushido / zen stuff. If it's not for you, well, it ain't for you.
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If no Krav maga... I'd look at something like judo, While yes its not into striking, it will teach you about the humen body and get you confy at being in close.
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Be advised, though, that aikido comes with a huge amount of baggage in the form of "worship" of O-Sensei as well as the whole bushido / zen stuff. If it's not for you, well, it ain't for you.
Very true. I was fortunate to find an instructor that was more "reality" based. The "baggage" was not as prevalent.
It also included, perhaps his own style, a more aggressive posture that had more offensive tactics. His belief was that no matter how big or bad the BG or Tori is, it's very hard to sustain an attack with a broken clavicle, or broken hand/arm/ extremity....
I initally thought if I resisted being thrown or flipped, I could change the outcome of the attack, WRONG!
To consider it a "sport" could dictate the style. The Brazilian Jujitsu has more "street level" techniques, but the one you pick is like buying a firearm.
What to I want it to do?
How will I apply it?
If I get attacked on the street, unarmed, unable to get to my Kershaw pocket knife, its Katy Bar the Door, I am going to do what it takes to STOP the threat. Breaking bones or making the BG unable to breathe, see, function, is a quick way to insure I walk away.
I'm sure Rob and MB who do this kind of thing for a living, will also provide great insight.
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I always enjoyed Wing Chun Kung Fu or Jeet Kun Do. With Wing Chung I thoroughly enjoyed "sticky hands" contact fighting. Unfortunately my instructor moved and I slowly lost interest over the years. I believe keeping up with a martial art form is very beneficial. Just my personal opinion.
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What you need to do is attend and observe a few classes. Watch the instructors. One style does not have an advantage over another, in most cases. I train in a system called Zen Do Kia (ZDK). We often say that if there is no blood, it's not a brown belt test. What we mean is, we take hard hits in the dojo, so we can take them on the street. Observe, you will know the good from the bad.
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Wing chun kung fu worked for me to fend off an attack. The system utilizes chain punching which is a very fast powerful punch that is made famous by bruce lee and the one inch punch. The system has other effective "tricks" as well. Although it lacks ground fighting. I found myself vulnerable on my back with an attacker standing over me. I immediatly trained in Brazillian ju jitsu.
Train in what interests you, some training is better then no training.
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That's a toughie...I spent decade in Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo Do, with some side trips into akido, tai chi and various Philippine stick/knife disciplines. I learned a lot from all of them (and cold, damp mornings are a real treat these days!). I fought some full contact (hence the fun mornings) and studied odd things like mime (handy for fighting inside) and various "motion therapies," handy for improving range of motion and understanding spatial relationships.
I don't think I truly understood the martial arts, however, until I got out of the dojo and started my time in very high risk sports like big mountains, cave diving, blah blah. The reason I did well at the edges of the known universe were the lessons I learned in the dojo, at hundreds of IPSC matches and in training and simulations...as my mother said once, "I never figured you'd be so good at not dying." I think that's a compliment, anyway!
There are a number of defensive tactics classes that synthesize easily learned/effective martial arts strategies that could be alternatives to the traditional arts. Training full contact with red suits is eye-opening, to say the least. I also strongly recommend that if you get the chance, take the Martial Blade Concept classes from TBD co-host Michael Janich...he is a brilliant instructor, and his classes are among the best I've ever taken:
http://www.martialbladeconcepts.com/
Remember, style is an impediment to action! Just ask me how I ended up counting birdies on the floor in a sparring match with a Golden Gloves fighter, or how (I swear) I let Chuck Norris con me into getting pounded into the sand on a beach in Hawaii by one of the Gracies...
Michael B
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That's a toughie...I spent decade in Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo Do, with some side trips into akido, tai chi and various Philippine stick/knife disciplines. I learned a lot from all of them (and cold, damp mornings are a real treat these days!). I fought some full contact (hence the fun mornings) and studied odd things like mime (handy for fighting inside) and various "motion therapies," handy for improving range of motion and understanding spatial relationships.
I don't think I truly understood the martial arts, however, until I got out of the dojo and started my time in very high risk sports like big mountains, cave diving, blah blah. The reason I did well at the edges of the known universe were the lessons I learned in the dojo, at hundreds of IPSC matches and in training and simulations...as my mother said once, "I never figured you'd be so good at not dying." I think that's a compliment, anyway!
There are a number of defensive tactics classes that synthesize easily learned/effective martial arts strategies that could be alternatives to the traditional arts. Training full contact with red suits is eye-opening, to say the least. I also strongly recommend that if you get the chance, take the Martial Blade Concept classes from TBD co-host Michael Janich...he is a brilliant instructor, and his classes are among the best I've ever taken:
http://www.martialbladeconcepts.com/
Remember, style is an impediment to action! Just ask me how I ended up counting birdies on the floor in a sparring match with a Golden Gloves fighter, or how (I swear) I let Chuck Norris con me into getting pounded into the sand on a beach in Hawaii by one of the Gracies...
Michael B
Same reason you had to get the Serbu, you are a sucker for abuse ;D
"the EASY way and the Right way are seldom the SAME way"
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something to keep in mind. Unless you are planning on making the Martial Art you train a life career, be very wary of instructors getting you to break boards or something. There's no reason for you to hurt yourself just because you are learning/training.
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While you are trying to find the right one for you, I best advice is good old fashion boxing. You will be surprised how much faster, harder, and more accurate your punches will get. There are many styles of fighting that are good, but in a panic a good punch goes a long way.
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While you are trying to find the right one for you, I best advice is good old fashion boxing. You will be surprised how much faster, harder, and more accurate your punches will get. There are many styles of fighting that are good, but in a panic a good punch goes a long way.
If you've got the size or strength for it, I'd more than halfway agree. In a crisis, simpler is better. Some guys are artists with single actions, most of us would do better with a Glock; point, click, repeat as necessary. The thing I'd add is to take a page out the 911 terrorist's book. They went to their local boxing gymn and asked for training in street fighting for self defense (shocking that you could find that in an old school sweaty mat and heavy bag no BS boxing gymn, I know ;)). The idea being that rather than perfect punches for points, a side order of eye gouging, head butting and foot stomping is just as easy and instinctive. There are a lot of good dojos out there, but it seems like you're looking for something run by and for fighters not athletes. I think you might have an easier time finding it at "Big Mike's Gymn than "Master Lees Martial Arts Extravaganza". Just a thought.
fightingquaker13
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I'd like to hear more on this from MB,Mike J. and Rob P.
For us "older guys" that aint what we used to be >:( would like to hear thoughts on a martial art or other. That would be something we need to look into.
Back in my mid 20's almost got my black belt in Taekwon-Do. Still work on the hand to hand stuff but no more spinning back kicks for me :-\
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Bucktracker wrote:
"Although it lacks ground fighting."
I agree but the key is staying off the ground. Jujitsu is for rolling around on the ground along with wrestling. I want to punch, jab, kick and flee the scene and avoid any continuation of the fight.
I also agree that I would like to hear what Mr. Janich or Mr. Pincus have to respond with. Thanks to Mr. Bane for already commenting.
In the end, it does not matter who or what you studied in martial arts or boxing. It is the man who walks away to live another day without having to take another life.
Again, just my personal opinion.
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Bucktracker wrote:
"Although it lacks ground fighting."
I agree but the key is staying off the ground. Jujitsu is for rolling around on the ground along with wrestling. I want to punch, jab, kick and flee the scene and avoid any continuation of the fight.
I also agree that I would like to hear what Mr. Janich or Mr. Pincus have to respond with. Thanks to Mr. Bane for already commenting.
In the end, it does not matter who or what you studied in martial arts or boxing. It is the man who walks away to live another day without having to take another life.
Again, just my personal opinion.
If you want to 'punch & move' Aikido, Judo, Hopkido and more traditional Karate styles would be good and easily available options for fast response and ability to run afterward.
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Here's my quick thoughts:
1. You have to get comfortable fighting while in contact. If your style is about striking or quick throws/"moves" to break contact I think you are missing important skills. You may not want to be on the ground, but we all know that fights are likely to end up there. Being comfortable with grappling skills (grounded and standing) is vital to fighting well.
2. Just like in shooting, I feel that at the extreme edges of training, sport and competition distract from context of a real FIGHT. Be careful of them both. In terms of individual skill development, they can be the best thing going, but always keep the ultimate context of your real application of those skills in mind.
3. Just like in shooting, no one person/school/style is likely to have all the answers.... and if they are even going to come close, they had better be progressive and comprehensive in their approach. If you are starting with a 500 year old art, you are starting 500 years behind the curve. In this way, the MMA schools are probably the most progressive.... just make sure you keep #2 in mind.
4. Some people are smarter, faster, more coordinated and stronger than others. Don't worry about what your Sensei/guru/hero/gym's best fighter can do. It is about what you can do. I have trained with Gracie, Blauer and Couture, but they all bring different natural tools and experiences to the table... while they all made me more dangerous, they've never turned anyone into a clone. The same is likely to be true of any instructor you find. It's what you can do that matters.
5. With #4 in mind, the first place to start is with physical fitness. You can have great style, but without coordination, strength and endurance, your knowledge of an art isn't going to help you much on the street. The guy with one eye closed and the 1911 six inches from his face shooting bull's eyes at 20 yards that looks down the barrel while releasing his magazines and tells gun shop stories about how dangerous he is, is exactly like the overweight guy who gets red faced and out of breath walking up the stairs who tells you about his years of Karate/Boxing/Dim Mak training....
In addition to trying to get some training time with Janich (who I think "gets it"), I recommend looking for a Personal Defense Readiness seminar as a good place to start. Many of the PDR instructors also teach traditional arts or are full fledged S.P.E.A.R. Instructors that can offer both short term awareness/empowerment/strengthening as well as long term courses of study. In this way, Janich also offers those of you looking for an integrated approach to using tools (knives, sticks, guns) that fits mentally with a practical approach to unarmed defense.
-RJP
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Thanks Rob!!
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Rob , Which Gracie did you train with. Renzo comes up to Alaska during the summer. He puts on a few clinics and the goes fishing. I have a great pic of my son with Renzo appiling a rear naked choke on him. WaffenAlaskan
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Wow! I am honored. Both Bane and Pincus responded to my silly question. Thank you to everyone who contributed.
A brief update in the quest. Last night I sat in a trained with the local MMA guys. The two main instructors come from very different backgrounds (one from Jujitsu the other focused on Chinese Min Hip (sp?) boxing in his past). They seem to train seriously both grounded and standing incorporating control, grappling, striking, breaking holds and throws.
The night I visited was grappling work. - all in street clothes. They seem to focus on moving in a very “organic” manner. Direct, to the point, without any “style” and wasted motion.
I even "got to" spend 10 minutes working out with their fighter so he could warm up before his training session.
It was kind of frustrating trying to get a hold of the fighter - it was like trying to grab jello. The mindset that is prevalent is to break the hold and redirect that motion back into a strike, which is the complete opposite of what I am used to seeing/feeling. It was like his hand/arm was there, and then it was gone and swinging back in.
It was fun rolling with the other beginner (at around 260 lb. he was difficult to move around) in the class, and I am incredibly sore (the lactic acid kind, not the beat down kind).
The gym is 5 minutes from my front door, which is a big plus. They are a really cool group of guys with varied backgrounds and fighting styles.
I have a call into the Krav Maga headquarters to see if I can locate the instructor that previously had the school in the area a couple of years ago, but haven’t heard back yet.
How hard is it to take someone trained in this format (MMA) to be effective in real world self-defense? I guess I am curious if you guys think I should continue to actively seek out a different format, or should I settle in with this group for a while?
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If it feels good to you, continue. Traditional Karate, MMA, or any of the other styles are not the end all and be all in SELF DEFENSE. You must be able to think on your feet. If plan A doesn't work, go to B ,or C, or D. Improvise and survive.
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In addition to trying to get some training time with Janich (who I think "gets it"), I recommend looking for a Personal Defense Readiness seminar as a good place to start. Many of the PDR instructors also teach traditional arts or are full fledged S.P.E.A.R. Instructors that can offer both short term awareness/empowerment/strengthening as well as long term courses of study. In this way, Janich also offers those of you looking for an integrated approach to using tools (knives, sticks, guns) that fits mentally with a practical approach to unarmed defense.
-RJP
+10
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This is both a tough question and an incredibly easy one. As far as deciding which systems are best, I would say those that contain movements that rely on easily learned gross motor skills--stuff that you can learn reasonably well in a short period of time and be able to apply effectively if you are attacked sometime soon. They should also be tactics that allow you to immediately understand the function they provide. If you're spending your time practicing the "Flying Lotus" or "Gargling Badger" or some other movement that doesn't immediately conjure up vivid visions of pounding the snot out of someone, you're not on the most direct path to learning how to defend yourself on the street.
In evaluating systems, you must also consider your physical attributes, limitations, and build. Sumo is a lousy art for a guy that's 6' 2'' and weighs 160 pounds. Tae Kwon Do doesn't work well for someone that's 5' 2'' and 250. That doesn't mean that ALL of the techniques of those arts are inappropriate for those people, but enough of them are inconsistent with their physical statures to make them poor choices.
Are there generic arts that offer a good body of technique for MOST people? Yes. That brings us to the second part of the problem: Finding an instructor that's willing to cater to YOUR needs.
The problem with any institutionalized matial art or self-defense system is that it survives by making people fight according to that system. It creates a progressive structure that you are supposed to navigate through to develop proficiency in the system. Ideally, those goals are consistent with your goals and you learn stuff that's relevant to keeping yourself safe. If those goals are geared more toward fitness, competition, cross-cultural experiences, or other directions that do not support learning how to hurt your attacker and get away, you're not taking the shortest route to developing the skills you need.
For example, Brazilian Jujitsu is an awesome art that has much to recommend it. As a competitive art and a basis for developing combative skill, it has a lot to offer. However, if your biggest fear is going to the ground in a streetfight on concrete, learning any tactics that emphasize grappling on all fours (knees and elbows on the ground) may be very counterproductive. When you fight the way you train, you stand the chance of destroying your elbows and knees on the concrete.
Please understand that this is an example used to illustrate a point--not an attack on BJJ. It was based on actual experiences with one of my private students during a training session that "went off the mat."
So how do you get what you want? First, define a clear set of goals for your personal defense needs. Then start visiting different schools and discuss your goals with the instructor. Tell him that you respect his art and his approach, but you want to focus on your specific goals. If you see his students doing something that you feel is impractical (i.e. jumping, spinning kicks), tell him that's not for you and see what he says. If he's not willing to work with you and your goals or tries to lead you off into the martial arts weeds, walk away.
For practical self-defense, some arts are definitely better than others. Unfortunately, as we say in Martial Blade Concepts, "If you try hard enough, you can f%$& up anything." You may find a great kung fu instructor that meets your needs better than a Krav Maga instructor that isn't representing the full potential of his system.
Remember, it's your butt, so you get to choose.
Stay safe,
Mike
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For practical self-defense, some arts are definitely better than others. Unfortunately, as we say in Martial Blade Concepts, "If you try hard enough, you can f%$& up anything." You may find a great kung fu instructor that meets your needs better than a Krav Maga instructor that isn't representing the full potential of his system.
Remember, it's your butt, so you get to choose.
There it is guy's !!!!
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I'd say first and foremost, find something that focuses on defense and not competition.
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MJ, thank you for that insight.
I visited the MMA school again tonight. I am going to spend a month training with them to give it a fair shake.
We went rounds with stand-up sparring with light gloves tonight. I cannot believe how hard it is to go three or four rounds. I felt like I had run wind sprints. :o If you get clinched up, you gotta fight your way out of it.
Worked on a drill where one student would lie flat on the ground with an opponant in a side mount. You had 30 seconds to get the attacker off of you using any means possible (while they used any means possible to keep you there - we didn't use strikes, but the advanced students did). Really changes your mindset when you just want out; just trying to get clear and get standing.
I really like your logic that my goals can be met in any dicipline so long as the instructor is willing and able to tailor the training. The class being six (seven with me), I am hoping that won't be a problem.
One of the advanced students spent a few years training in Tae Kwon Do, and during the kick sparring the instructor got after him for that "Tae Kwon Do crap." Just kick dammit! (nothing against that form, the instructor just wants everything straight forward and to the point - I suppose this is keeping with your gross motor skills statement).
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Sounds like you have at least found a place to work out and develop skills, that should work for now!
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I got certified as an instructor in Royce's LE program "G.R.A.C.I.E."... there is an article about the program and my experience with Royce in a 2001 or 2002 SWAT Mag.....
-RJP
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"Just break the wrist and walk away."
(http://logo.cafepress.com/9/1869353.1559279.JPG)
Sorry, I couldnt help it.
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"Just break the wrist and walk away."
(http://logo.cafepress.com/9/1869353.1559279.JPG)
Sorry, I couldnt help it.
;D
haha - that is so funny. That is one of our all-time favorites. Last night on my way to class my wife and I were texting about that movie.
Me: [Kip] Try and hit me Napoleon. [/Kip]
Wife: [Rex] Show me your best moves. [/Rex]
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I'll just throw in one small tidbit that kind of sums up what some of the others have been saying. Bruce Lee was mentioned earlier on and I believe he summed it up best when he said, "Use what works for you!"
When I was younger and still able, I loved martial arts and studied whenever and whatever I could. I learned some Tang Soo Do, Tae Kwon Do, Jiu Jitsu, Aikido, Hap Ki Do, Goju Ryu, Shito Ryu and Judo. Unfortunately I never had the chance to try Jeet Kune Do, but I do remember that it was devised as a "style without a style" which incorporated parts of several different arts and was based on the practitioner's movements and abilities, so while I like Aikido for quickly using an opponents movements against him, it is not always the appropriate tool. I think that by working with MMA may be of use, but don't just stop there and investigate any other types of martial arts that can help give you an edge. If you can pick up just one move from each of several styles, you are much farther ahead than gaining instructor status in any one style. Remember, street fighting has no rules, so in order to defend yourself in that type of situation, you must not be hampered by rules yourself. My Daddy always used to say, "Don't ever start a fight, but if someone else starts it, use anything you can to end it!" That includes the "good hickory stick" or the piece of pipe or the rock. The objective is to end any fight while sustaining as little damage as possible.
Since I can no longer do most of the things I used to do, I now have to be prepared to use my cane as my first line of defense and then my gun if necessary. Half of the battle is readiness, so I am always alert to what is going on around me and mentally plan what action to take in any given situation at all times.
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I am fond of Army combatives. The BJJ based stuff not the Judo/Karate based stuff. My wife is a fan of Frying Pan fu but she mostly just uses it on me and I am a pushover.
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I have found that Thai boxing and Judo work for me and my gal. She is only about 125lbs and can throw me and im 225lbs. The boxing helps with quik strikes to the body and the Judo allows for locks,throws, and counters.