The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Defense and Tactics => Topic started by: Badgersmilk on March 15, 2009, 06:03:44 PM
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The mystery caliber below: It's commonly found in any type of handgun or rifle action. Given the shown information, would you defend your life with it? Would you not consider it superior to most shown for self defense? Why? What if it had no recoil even in a sub compact auto-pistol? Would you consider replaceing your current carry gun with it?
Caliber Muzzle Velocity 100yd Velocity Muzzle Energy 100 yd Energy Impact at 100yrds
380 1000 913 200 167 neg 1.2
?? 1750 1191 533 363 neg1.4
9mm 1200 1047 341 280 neg0.9
.40S&W 980 930 350 316 neg1.2
0.45 1080 944 518 439 neg0.9
.44 mag 1830 1475 1859 1208 PLUS 7.3
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Sure sounds alot like 7,62x 25. Not a good choice. at 85 grains it just does not have the mass needed.
Ftlb of energy lie... send a grain of sand going 90% the speed of light and it will have the energy of all the bombs droped ever. Does not mean it would make a good SD round.
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Tokarev was my first guess, also. But...Badgersmilk said it had no recoil. The last 7.62x25 I shot (CZ52) has a fair amount of recoil.
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It's the Aguila hypervelocity 22's stated numbers, but I don't buy the energy numbers they supply. It's speed @ 100 yards is damn near the Stingers, so the energy should be very close to a Stinger - and it isn't all that much faster at the muzzle than Stingers to justify the large energy there.
Stinger 32 grain mv energy 100 yd vel energy
1640 191 1132 91
Aguila 30 grain 1750 533 1191 363
I call BS on Aguila. Somethings not right there.
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I call BS on Aguila. Somethings not right there.
I agree...I calculate a 30gr projectile at 1750 fps is 204 ft/lbs energy [(30*17502)/450240=204].
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.Replace my current carry gun with .22 anything ? I laugh sneeringly in your direction. Unless it's nuclear tipped, you must be joking.
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Fatman, You are wise and all seeing! Grats on getting it!
I've shot a LOT of these, and a LOT of stinger, vipers, velocitors, exc.. These rounds ARE hotter!
Even at 200 lbs energy at 100 yards its beating the 380 many people choose for defense. A bobcat 21 will fit in your front pocket with two spare clips, and at 25 yards everyone that I've known to try one has been amazed when they shoot as accurately as they do with their carry gun of choice! While "no" recoil is an exageration, the recoil is light enough to put five or six rounds on target for the average hand gun / shooters two.
Reliablility isnt a valid argument. I've fired two bricks of this ammunition and had less mis-fires than I've experienced in several other centerfire calibers / guns. The rimfire reliability problems everyone hears about is from poorly maintained, cheaply made guns, and the low grade ammo where you get 50 rounds for a buck (what do you expect?!?)
I'm not saying .22 is the ideal choice for EVERY occasion! But forget your pre-concieved notions and look at the facts. Anyone could conceal carry four Beretta Bobcats in the pockets of a pair of shorts! Heck, shoot with one gun in each hand like they do in the movies if you really want to lay down some lead and scare the HE#$ out of people!
In a fire fight??? A .22 in my pocket beats the .44 magnum you left at home!!! If you really tried you could conceal carry 6 Beretta's, and a HUNDRED rounds of ammo with an average jacket!
"What's in your pocket?"... It's not Capital One sucka!
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That must be that new math...
Even the hotest 22 mag will only get you about 325 ftlb at about 2200 fps.
E=(MV^2)/450400
So lets solve for V.
533=30V^2/450400
V= ( (533*450400)/30) ^.5
so V~ 2829 to get that 533 me with a 30 grainger...
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http://www.the-armory.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/aguila.html
These guys list the ammo at 204 as well. Maybe Guns & Ammo boys dont do good math? (where the first chart info came from)
And YET...
.25 ACP 63
.32 Auto 129
.380 Auto 188
(http://www.eabco.com/SuperMaxHP_small.gif) + (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c1/Beretta_Model_21_In_Hand.jpg/120px-) = "I see dead people."
Carry it in a pocket, in a sock, under your hat, stuff 2 in your underwear and make the girls look twice...
They'll say WOW everytime!!! IT'S GUNWOW!
Have to have a gun that is in the movies? "Reservour Dogs"
Much smaller options are out there, but the Beretta is the only one I've seen I'd ever think of trusting my life with. Well thought out design, double / single action, superb machining. It's a little tank!
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I think I'll stick with my 1911 .
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I've carried 1911's and other .45's fully loaded... Ideal as for single shot damage on target. MUCH harder to hide, & heavy. If nothing else, the Beretta's a sweet backup! Try it. Before you know it you may be leaving that .45 at home more and more.
(http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww40/BigCheeseStick/2711614599_7f53d0227a.jpg?)
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Badgersmilk...I'm gonna go out on a limb...an I might be reading more into it than there is...but I'm gonna guess that you like the Beretta Bobcat. I could be wrong...but I just kinda get that feeling. ;D ;D
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Ftlb of energy lie... send a grain of sand going 90% the speed of light and it will have the energy of all the bombs droped ever. Does not mean it would make a good SD round.
Double the speed, Quadruple the impace energy...Now increase the speed by a factor of 10^26...Oh yeah. You could blow a hole in Jupiter. Although the Third Law of Motion makes me wonder what would happen to the person who shot it. ;)
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Double the speed, Quadruple the impace energy...Now increase the speed by a factor of 10^26...Oh yeah. You could blow a hole in Jupiter. Although the Third Law of Motion makes me wonder what would happen to the person who shot it. ;)
Be careful Thanos, not all us of remember elemental physics...we went to school a long, long, long time ago...but I pondered the same question... ;D
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I like almost ALL guns! I think all .22's and the little bobcat get a bad wrap, & a lot less respect than they deserve. To many guys get carried away by the latest "trendy" rounds (40S&W, 45GAP come to mind), ego trips and smack talk from a dealer that just wants to move product. Manufactures HAVE to keep coming up with some kind of new caliber just to stay in business (If light bulbs never burned out after you bought the first one would GE still be in business?) If for some very strange reason I'm not going to shoot more than once. Give me a .45 every time!
If your going to use your conceal carry gun... I'm guessing its gonna be pretty close shooting. Two rounds of .22 in the head... I cant think of the guy tough enough to shoot back from that! Seems like the boys in the mafia have been doing it that way for some time!
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I dont think you read all of Fatman's post
Stinger 32 grain mv energy 100 yd vel energy
1640 191 1132 91
Aguila 30 grain 1750 533 1191 363
I call BS on Aguila. Somethings not right there.
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Fatman did great finding out what the round was (happend quicker than I though it would!). But Aguila isnt at fault. Its was the boys at Guns and Ammo (their statistics). Aguila's site as been disfunctional & useless since day one. They make good ammo though!
"SELF DEFENSE DISTANCE": 7-15 FEET
Hmmm, food for thought.
If you miss the first shot due to a struggle, panic, obstruction, whatever. Shot's 2-7 come WAY quicker with a .22 than anything else out there. Even the biggest guy isnt much threat with his brains falling out the back of his head. Miss with the first round from a .45 and Mr. Bad Guy has a lot better chance to react in a way not so pleasant for you.
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Fatman did great finding out what the round was (happend quicker than I though it would!). But Aguila isnt at fault. Its was the boys at Guns and Ammo (their statistics).
But the statistics are the basis of your entire argument...... If they are not an accurate representation of their performance, then you are just fooling yourself believing they will be enough to stop a bad guy..... They are not delivering the energy on target that you believe they are.
Even the biggest guy isnt much threat with his brains falling out the back of his head.
You mean, slowly trickling out through a pinhole leak because the rounds dont expand enough to make a sizable exit hole?
.... Now if they start designing pocket autoloaders or revolvers in .22 mag we can start talking about using .22s for personal defense...... especially if they start truly designing the bullets to expand for personal defense:
Federal .22 win mag
30 gr
Muzzle velocity 2200 fps
Muzzle energy 322 ft pds
100 yd velocity 1419 fps
100 yd energy 134 ft pds
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.... Now if they start designing pocket autoloaders or revolvers in .22 mag we can start talking about using .22s for personal defense......
Here's my "pocket protector"...chambered in .22 mag. It's the gun I carry when I'm not carrying a gun.
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm104/kc8afw/NAAMini.jpg)
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Although I can't say that this gun would be my CHOICE in a gunfight, it sure would be welcome if it were the only one in my pocket when the shit went down.
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It is also important to note that in dealing with a barrel as short as the NAA's, you are taking the ballistics of the .22 mag down to about the equivalent of .22lr performance in a rifle barrel.
.... as a side note, I would love to go squirrel hunting with a Bobcat!
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A bobcat 21 will fit in your front pocket with two spare clips, and at 25 yards everyone that I've known to try one has been amazed when they shoot as accurately as they do with their carry gun of choice! While "no" recoil is an exageration, the recoil is light enough to put five or six rounds on target for the average hand gun / shooters two.
Cue the cat!
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It is also important to note that in dealing with a barrel as short as the NAA's, you are taking the ballistics of the .22 mag down to about the equivalent of .22lr performance in a rifle barrel.
+1
Dixie Derringer 1-1/8" barrel, .22 mag @ 751 ft/sec, 50 grain is about 62 ft/lbs of force, great for snakes or the occasional rabid skunk...
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You guys makin' fun of my "noisy cricket"? :P You are correct...CCI Maxi-mags give me about 825 fps and 60 some-odd ft/lbs of energy. I bought it primarily as a hiking gun for snakes and the occasional critter (works real good on raccoons). It is definately not my first (or second, or third) choice for SD...but it works fine when circumstances dictate I can't carry a real gun.
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ericire12, Your telling me you can take multiple shots to the head from a .22? Or that you dont think even one would kill you at 15 feet? You MUST be tough!
CAShooter, sweet gun. Now THATS SMALL!
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You guys makin' fun of my "noisy cricket"? :P You are correct...CCI Maxi-mags give me about 825 fps and 60 some-odd ft/lbs of energy. I bought it primarily as a hiking gun for snakes and the occasional critter (works real good on raccoons). It is definately not my first (or second, or third) choice for SD...but it works fine when circumstances dictate I can't carry a real gun.
Not making fun at all CZ...I'm sure it works fine for it's intended purpose....critter control! ;D
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http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php/topic,5252.0.html
If you choose a .22 when you COULD carry a larger caliber you are a fool. If you think you can ALWAYS get a head shot in an SD situation you are a bigger fool.
But hey, it's your life.
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ericire12, Your telling me you can take multiple shots to the head from a .22? Or that you dont think even one would kill you at 15 feet? You MUST be tough!
CAShooter, sweet gun. Now THATS SMALL!
Oh, a .22 is plenty deadly, but it may not stop an attacker in their tracks. They may die an hour later at a hospital, but you may also because your poor choice of caliber did not stop the threat.
You are also missing what I and many others have pointed out in this thread.... the ammo you are referring to does not give the ballistic performance that you are saying it does. Your entire argument is moot because the ballistics that you are quoting to make your case are overinflated and false.
Would you think its worthy of defending your life with?!?!
To answer your question, NO!
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Seems like the boys in the mafia have been doing it that way for some time!
I just read this line so forgive me for being late on the uptake....
A double tap point blank behind the ear by some mafia dickhead is MURDER, not self defense...not the same thing...
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Seems like the boys in the mafia have been doing it that way for some time!
I just read this line so forgive me for being late on the uptake....
A double tap point blank behind the ear by some mafia dickhead is MURDER, not self defense...not the same thing...
Here is his more telling quote:
Have to have a gun that is in the movies? "Reservour Dogs"
Hey, Hollywood, this isnt "one of those" gun forums! >:(
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Did he mean "Reservoir Dogs"?
Never saw it, anything by Tarantino ain't worth two hours of my time...
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I just read this line so forgive me for being late on the uptake....
A double tap point blank behind the ear by some mafia dickhead is MURDER, not self defense...not the same thing...
Here is his more telling quote:
Hey, Hollywood, this isnt "one of those" gun forums! >:(
He seems to prefer the guns from the movie "Munich"
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Worthy? NO, possible? Yes, that's why I have such things, better than a sharp stick in the eye, but a stick can reach the good stuff, if it's a good stick. I have these cartridges, and in my .22's they do shoot pretty well, but I have seen other pistols, Keyhole these rounds, and it looks impressive on paper, but on flesh, probably would not penetrate. Rimfires to the head are iffy, especially from the front, from the back of the head, in the Medulla AKA, GANGLAND STYLE, is a different but not guaranteed result, but more predictable, they used Icepicks too in the same spot, I don't want to defend that shot in court, but it could be defenseable. If it is what you have, then the discussion is over, use what you have to it's best advantage, and hope for the best. Remember Reagan was shot under the armpit with a .22rf, and did not know it for a while, granted it was not one of these, but I don't think the result would have been much different, maybe would have gotten his attention sooner? The .22rf is a killer, because it makes lots of small holes for surgeons to find, before you bleed out, but you probably drove yourself to the emergency room, I would use solids over HP's for penetration, but that is abstract, in a small bullet such as a .22rf. That said, here is my stealth holster, shirt pocket carry.
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff150/m25operator/100_1396.jpg)
Now my well worn Tomcat .32 and my NAA Guardian.
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff150/m25operator/100_1393.jpg)
I'll keep my 9mm, revolver in the front pocket, but the little gun has its small place, I won't be loading my S&W 41 with the Aquila rounds on my hip, in favor of my Para .45's or my Kahr k40.
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Show of hands....
Who else KNEW m25 had an NAA mini?
Yes, the man has at least one of everything!
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As to using a .22 round, Mossad uses it often for 'hits', but I wouldn't trust it for SD. 'Real' bullets have been know to ricochet off the skull. If a .45 or a 9mm will ricochet I wouldn't bet my life on a .22 penetrating. So
Would you think its worthy of defending your life with?!?!
Absolutely not
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Like m25operator wrote, long ago I was clipped with a little .22 in the forearm. It made it through a pretty thick jacket between the bones and stopped just before going through and there was a big lump on the other side. I did drive myself to the ER and I was annoyed, didn't even think it was a big deal, but I passed out from blood loss in the waiting room and almost died. I now have a bit more respect for those little toys. I know I should have applied direct pressure etc., but it was such a little hole.
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I'm kinda in the middle on this one. :-\ Do I think a .22 is a manstopper? I think a 12 gauge loaded with #00 buck is a manstopper...any handgun is a compromise. Having said that...I still think my little NAA mini has a place in my SD toolbox.
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I'm kinda in the middle on this one. :-\ Do I think a .22 is a manstopper? I think a 12 gauge loaded with #00 buck is a manstopper...any handgun is a compromise. Having said that...I still think my little NAA mini has a place in my SD toolbox.
Has a place, Absolutely. Top of the list ? Not a chance.
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Congratulations are in order! You can tell several people actually stopped, used intelligent thought and considerd the situation! Rather than blurting out the manly man "I know everything, and thats final!" stereotypes planted in their heads by Bubba and Billy Bob years ago at the gun shop. I see a few fell back on that too. Sad :(
Personally, I think anyone is a complete fool if a guy points a .22 at you and you dont treat that threat the same as if it were a .45. Thats just me though. I dont want to be shot at all!!!
And again, personally, I think any handgun is a bad choice for defending my life with, but they sure beat using your fists! ;D
The little revolvers are super interesting! I dont know much about them. Dont know what brand it was, but I pulled off the cylinder on one (as if loading it) one time and it took quite a fight to get it back in! Plus that one only held something like 4 rounds. :(
I am partial to the Bobcat for its double or single action firing, quickly removable / reloadable magazine, high capacity for its size, & surprising accuracy. The little Taurus's are nice to, but only double action I think. I've heard some reliability problems with them too.
Nope, .22 isnt going to do what a 12 gauge will, but... Better think twice!
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How can anyone NOT like "Reservoir Dogs"???? (sorry for my misspell earlier) See it!
If you did like it, try "Revolver". I'm still not 100% sure who was what in that one... It was interesting though.
"Layer Cake" is a GREAT one. SEE IT! Anyone here will ROLL when you hear. "Oh, that ones pretty." Hard to believe he'd make a good James Bond one day!
I just dont get it. How can anyone NOT like RESERVOIR DOGS!????? Must be a girl.
;D
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Congratulations are in order! You can tell several people actually stopped, used intelligent thought and considerd the situation! Rather than blurting out the manly man "I know everything, and thats final!" stereotypes planted in their heads by Bubba and Billy Bob years ago at the gun shop. I see a few fell back on that too. Sad :(
Ahhh, name calling. The last bastion of a 7 year old.
Well.... I guess if you are going to use inflated and completely false ballistics to make your case, then why stop there... go ahead and make the blanket statement that any and all dissension with your belief equates to a total lack of intelligence. Sir, I think you are the one who needs to check your machismo at the door next time you post on this forum. ::)
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Elephants can be killed with .22's however one should be prepared to deal with the consequences
while waiting for it to die.
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Elephants can be killed with .22's however one should be prepared to deal with the consequences
while waiting for it to die.
On one of the History channel shows it actually had a story on that. The elephant dropped dead right there!
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Hope he falls someplace good to have the BBQ! Hate to drag that one out of the woods!
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Hope he falls someplace good to have the BBQ! Hate to drag that one out of the woods!
LOL!
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"The bear was shot in the Swan Hills area of Alberta by a native woman
by the name of Bella Twinn. She was 60 years old at the time
and was out on her trapline. She saw the bear walking down
the cutline and stepped off to one side as the bear was
walking towards her. One can only assume the bear saw
her but did not care. As the bear walked by her she shot it
behind the ear with a single shot 22 and it went down on the
first shot. After the bear fell and she saw the size of it she
said that is when she got scared and put more shots into it.
At that time the bear was # 9 in the world and is still tied for
20 th. The head mount and hide hung in the Canyon Creek
Hotel for many years until the hotel burned a few years ago."
One brave old lady!
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Hope he falls someplace good to have the BBQ! Hate to drag that one out of the woods!
Old joke...
where do you shoot a moose?
In the bucket of a front end loader. ;D
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Is it possible this round would not transfer energy to the target and would just pass through? Could it also be a good armor piercing bullet for the same reason? I remember reading a story about the M855 punching clean holes and not doing 'much' damage when shot at an unarmored target wearing no clothes. (Blackhawk down?)
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Overload, I think your apraisal there is pretty accurate of this round fired at a human torso. Given such a weapon / round, I'd only ever consider head shots. I think it'd be well applied there. Moving fast enough, & small enough to pierce a hole rather than ricochet off. Punching a pencil size hole through a persons brain seems like it'd do the trick. I think there's a good chance of making a good 1" hole in the back of the skull, and the ventury from the still fast moving "pencil" should take some amount of tissue with it out said hole. (theorizing)
One strange note with this ammo (solely from my own experience), when shooting rabbits, fox squirrel, even a skunk once, I've noticed the solid points actually will make a bigger hole and do more caviation damage than the hollow points. Most of the time, not always. After they get inside about an inch the solid points often open up a cavity the rest of the way through thats about half an inch to an inch in diameter. I've seen them exit with anything from three .22 size holes, to single one inch hole with rips in the hide around it. Cant explain why the hollow points dont seem to do as much. Head shots are ALWAYS DEVASTATING, dont leave much behind.
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I just hit me what these remind me of: 5.7x28 that the P90 and Five-seveN
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http://www.metacafe.com/watch/87003/p90_instructor/
Never heard of it before. The layout of the weapon is awsome! I'd be curious to see how it did in combat. Probably good piercing body armor. Combat ranges are a lot further, and the action is much more hectic than personal defense. Taking time for headshots everytime would seem detrimental to my life expectancy to put it lightly. I'd be pretty scared being one of the first guys to use that little round for that purpose.
I've seen bunches of video's of guys shot with 9mil's and .40's walking and shooting back for a WHILE after they got hit in the torso. My take on it is headshots only with any handgun or caliber under 7.62X39. Just me though.
.223's are for prairie dogs. NOT a good choice for anything bigger than coyote's in any condition. To light for even the coyote body shots IMO. Thats just me though. I see coyote's as a crappy version of a dog, not vermen, no need to make them suffer.
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hese guys list the ammo at 204 as well. Maybe Guns & Ammo boys dont do good math? (where the first chart info came from)
And YET...
.25 ACP 63
.32 Auto 129
.380 Auto 188
+ = "I see dead people."
Carry it in a pocket, in a sock, under your hat, stuff 2 in your underwear and make the girls look twice...
They'll say WOW everytime!!! IT'S GUNWOW!
Have to have a gun that is in the movies? "Reservour Dogs"
Much smaller options are out there, but the Beretta is the only one I've seen I'd ever think of trusting my life with. Well thought out design, double / single action, superb machining. It's a little tank!
I've seen bunches of video's of guys shot with 9mil's and .40's walking and shooting back for a WHILE after they got hit in the torso. My take on it is headshots only with any handgun or caliber under 7.62X39. Just me though.
.223's are for prairie dogs. NOT a good choice for anything bigger than coyote's in any condition. To light for even the coyote body shots IMO. Thats just me though. I see coyote's as a crappy version of a dog, not vermen, no need to make them suffer.
Sounds contradictory to me.
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"Sounds contradictory to me.".
Na, opinions still the same. If I shoot somebody in the head with the Bobcat & the Aguila ammo at roughly 7-15' once, much less 7 times... Pretty sure I'll "see dead people"! I think its a great self defense combination!
Self defense / Combat... Apples and oranges. The P90 was intended for military.
Not a lot of people are taking .380's to Iraq, but PLENTY believe in them for defense. Not my choice for either.
Let me correct what I just said though. "great self defense combination", better to say. "great conceal carry combination", I still want my 12 gauge in the house!
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I can't help but think about the episode of cops where a large man in a windbreaker was shot in a drive by. The .22 bullets didn't even break the skin, they just poked holes in his jacket. Not something I would want to bet my life on.
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A drive by shooting, Really???
Again, we're talking a conceal carry headshot here (likely to be 7-15' if your going to defend this in court). Detroit street combat, Iraq combat, WWII combat, deer hunting, prairie dog hunting, Kodiak bear hunting, Racoon hunting, gang fights, home protection, law enforcment... All different things. There is NO one gun that will perfectly fit all these situations. Pick the right gun for the right fight.
Dont forget. It still outperformed the .380 at the correct 204 pounds energy. Many people trust .380's.
Any volunteers to take a few in the head at 7-15' to prove their point?
Boy, try to broaden peoples minds a little... ::)
Carry what you have confidence will do the job though. Pull out a 50 BMG and make the guy kiss the muzzle before you shoot if thats your thing.
END OF THREAD:
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A drive by shooting, Really???
Again, we're talking a conceal carry headshot here (likely to be 7-15' if your going to defend this in court). Detroit street combat, Iraq combat, WWII combat, deer hunting, prairie dog hunting, Kodiak bear hunting, Racoon hunting, gang fights, home protection, law enforcment... All different things. There is NO one gun that will perfectly fit all these situations. Pick the right gun for the right fight.
Dont forget. It still outperformed the .380 at the correct 204 pounds energy. Many people trust .380's.
Any volunteers to take a few in the head at 7-15' to prove their point?
Boy, try to broaden peoples minds a little... ::)
Carry what you have confidence will do the job though. Pull out a 50 BMG and make the guy kiss the muzzle before you shoot if thats your thing.
No, it doesnt. A .22 lr out of a rifle barrel still wont get you the 250 ft pds of energy you can get out of a .380 - not to mention the larger diameter of the .380 and ammo specifically designed for personal protection - but shooting .22 lr out of a 4'' handgun will cut its ballistics performance in half, and I would imagine that shooting it out of a pocket pistol barrel like the Beretta's would probably cut the performance in half again.
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END OF THREAD:
+1
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try to broaden peoples minds a little...
::) ::) ::)
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http://www.goldenloki.com/ammo/gel/22lr/gel22lr.htm
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Knew a guy once (plant manager at a die cast shop I worked at 25+ years ago) that tried to kill himself with a .22 pistol...shot himself in the head. He suffered some fine motor skills issues (similar to a stroke), but he lived. They had to leave the bullet in his brain.
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Knew a guy once (plant manager at a die cast shop I worked at 25+ years ago) that tried to kill himself with a .22 pistol...shot himself in the head. He suffered some fine motor skills issues (similar to a stroke), but he lived. They had to leave the bullet in his brain.
That builds my confidence.
NOT
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I met a guy that strips paint off oil rigs for a living. His 3,000 psi sand blaster broke a hose and it whipped accross his neck while flying loose uncontrolled. Cut a 1" line from his jugular to his ear. The hospital emptied "a cup and a half" of sand from the back of his skull! He's walking around perfectly normal and happy, just one HELL of a scar.
Sooo, anybody want to let me pop a round of .22 at their heads yet??? Uh, huh. Talk the talk!
Point being... Whats your point? There are all kinds of amazing stories out there.
Seen the video on youtube where the guy gets hit in the head with a 50 bmg, gets up and says "we're not doing that again!"? HOLLY COW! So he proved beyond question .50 BMG wont kill a person!!!! ::)
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I met a guy that strips paint off oil rigs for a living. His 3,000 psi sand blaster broke a hose and it whipped accross his neck while flying loose uncontrolled. Cut a 1" line from his jugular to his ear. The hospital emptied "a cup and a half" of sand from the back of his skull! He's walking around perfectly normal and happy, just one HELL of a scar.
Sooo, anybody want to let me pop a round of .22 at their heads yet??? Uh, huh. Talk the talk!
Point being... Whats your point? There are all kinds of amazing stories out there.
Seen the video on youtube where the guy gets hit in the head with a 50 bmg, gets up and says "we're not doing that again!"? HOLLY COW! So he proved beyond question .50 BMG wont kill a person!!!! ::)
sand blasters are very deadly.( water blasters the same thing) So are ariless paint sprayers. Think about it, 3000 pso, thru something that is between .011 and .023 inchs. They have aflow rates of between .5 gpm and 2.5 gpm.
When I was a kid, my grandfather took me to a job site. A painter using an airless with out a trigger gruad, was coming down a ladder with the gun over her shoulder. The formen stoped him hald way down to go back up and hit a spot he missed. While talking to the forement he turned around and leaned back. It was only a split second, but it filled his butt cheek with a couple cups of paint. I saw the guy about 10 years ago. to this day he no longer has a right butt cheek and walks with a limp. I've also seen people remove the housing while and pulling the trigger.... its not pretty.
Fook with me while I'm working with any of above mentioned tools... if your close, your going to lose very badly. I'd rather be shot then tango with a high presure tool.
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Since you are still trying to make your case, I guess you dont know how to left click so Ill post it here in the thread:
http://www.goldenloki.com/ammo/gel/22lr/gel22lr.htm
Aguila Super Maximum 30gr
.22 lr Gelatin Tests
Test pistol: Taurus PT-22 - 2.75 inch barrel <--------- Thats the Taurus copy of your Beretta
Velocity
fps / st dv 1027 19.8
FP Energy 70 <------------------
Penetration
inches / st dv 11.6 0.65
Expansion
inches / st dv .220 0.00
(http://www.goldenloki.com/ammo/gel/22lr/xaghv.jpg)
*If you are going to have discussions on here with us, then you must actually read what others are posting. Your debate has been undressed more times then a $50 hooker.
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Enricae12. Fact is. You just bought whats nearly the weakest mouse gun ever devised, and a recycled pop bottle one at that. AFTER reading this thread. Tells me I accomplished my goal, and this / my thread served its purpose. HA!
Made people consider or reconsider the option of mouse guns for self defense. Argue all you want. YOU just bought the gun!
Really think a .32's gonna do a lot more than a .22 huh? To each their own.
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Interesting bit of Trivia:
The original publicity shots of Sean Connery holding a pistol was a bit of a blooper, as the gun he was holding was in reality just a Walther .177 caliber air pistol, as when Sean Connery went to the photo-shoot nobody had thought to bring a Walther PPK. One of the photographers practiced a bit of air pistol shooting. He had the airgun in his car, so he fetched it and that was what they used.
(http://www.vincelewis.net/myimages45/connery.jpg)
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I had to shoot a puppy one time, I used a .22rifle at 5 feet and it bounced off. .22 are for squirrels and plinking.
Any one who depends on a .22 for PD is an idiot and will die when his life depends on a toy.
I can't believe this stupid thread is still running.
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I had to shoot a puppy one time, I used a .22rifle at 5 feet and it bounced off. .22 are for squirrels and plinking.
Any one who depends on a .22 for PD is an idiot and will die when his life depends on a toy.
I can't believe this stupid thread is still running.
After 7 pages, I'll pipe in and say "+1" ;)
Shot a possum 9 times with a .22 out of a Nylon 66. Little bastard just sat there smiling.
Went into the house and came back with a 1911. He was still there......alive and smiling.
Ol' JMB's creation put a one-shot end to the festivities.
I surely am glad possums don't shoot back.
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Enricae12. Fact is. You just bought whats nearly the weakest mouse gun ever devised, and a recycled pop bottle one at that. AFTER reading this thread. Tells me I accomplished my goal, and this / my thread served its purpose. HA!
Made people consider or reconsider the option of mouse guns for self defense. Argue all you want. YOU just bought the gun!
Really think a .32's gonna do a lot more than a .22 huh? To each their own.
Yes, I bought a mouse gun after a long thought out way to fill a need and about a month of searching for the right pistol to do so. I do not have a Rambo complex and wont try to perpetrate that I carry a tactical 1911 "even in the shower". Nor have I watched so many movies that I think I can take on a tactical assault team with my .22 Beretta. I understand a mouse gun's shortcomings and do not for one minute think that it is anything but an alternative to being completely unarmed.
This entire debate has centered around if .22lr is suitable for personal defense, and once again, the answer is a resounding NO. This thread has had nothing to do with mouse gun calibers other then your weak interjection that the .22 ammo that you swear by far outperforms .380 ACP.
http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php/topic,5692.msg69612.html#msg69612
As far as .32 ACP compared to .22lr is concerned..... with the .32 I will be able to get approx 2-3 times more energy, a larger diameter bullet, more then adequate penetration, and a bullet designed for expansion (and one that will consistently expand to .450'').
I am sorry to break the news to you, but that little .22 of yours is not gonna out perform a .45 ACP in muzzle energy like you stated it does in your original post.
http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php/topic,5692.msg67559.html#msg67559
Every idea you have put forth in this thread has been nothing but laughable. No facts presented, just overblown rhetoric and flat out false numbers to justify your misguided beliefs.
Its so sad that this is probably one of those things that you are going to have to learn the hard way, but sometimes there is just no getting around natural selection.....
(http://glocktalk.com/forums/images/smilies/brick%20wall.gif)
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I read the thread and at first I thought this was a joke, but soon realized someone is not playing with a full deck... ;D
I think all that can be said is said, so I'll beg off but would add just a little advice to the author...partner with someone who has a real weapon capable of stopping an intruder, otherwise consider yourself another statistic in the world of the terminally ignorant...
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"stop an intruder"??? Better go back and read again... Whats an intruder got to do with anything here? ::)
"Nor have I watched so many movies that I think I can take on a tactical assault team with my .22 Beretta"... AGAIN, What the hell are you people reading??? Once the ol "I know better than anybody" testosterone gets going you just make up all kinds of crazy stuff up and go from there, huh?
The original numbers were cut and pasted from "Guns and Ammo"'s site... Throw your tantrum their direction.
One more time girls... END OF THREAD.
Going, going...
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"stop an intruder"??? Better go back and read again... Whats an intruder got to do with anything here? ::)
"Nor have I watched so many movies that I think I can take on a tactical assault team with my .22 Beretta"... AGAIN, What the hell are you people reading??? Once the ol "I know better than anybody" testosterone gets going you just make up all kinds of crazy stuff up and go from there, huh?
The original numbers were cut and pasted from "Guns and Ammo"'s site... Throw your tantrum their direction.
One more time girls... END OF THREAD.
Going, going...
Ahem....what was the title of the post again?
As William 'Curly Bill' Brocious once said....."Well..............bye...."
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There goes 1/2 hour of my life that I can never get back. :( This thread should have died long before I wasted my time reading it.
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Last post
Reply #71 on: 25 March 2009, 22:55:38 »
Your post
Reply #72 on: Today at 19:35:39 » (04-08-09)
It was ;D
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Jumbo! You raised the zombie!
<spits over his shoulder while sacrificing a Chicken McNugget to the depths of the Belly of the Fatman and chanting 'President Pelosi' three times >
That should kill anything.
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Jumbo! You raised the zombie!
<spits over his shoulder while sacrificing a Chicken McNugget to the depths of the Belly of the Fatman and chanting 'President Pelosi' three times >
That should kill anything.
How many times do I have to tell you it takes a head shot to stop a Zombie?!
http://www.bumlee.com/deanimator.html
;D
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I didn't realize that nobody posted to this thread for 2 weeks. I usually don't read the defense and tactics section so it's all new to me.
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I didn't realize that nobody posted to this thread for 2 weeks. I usually don't read the defense and tactics section so it's all new to me. Mea culpa Maximus, Mea Culpa, I'm VERY VERY sorry
Fixed it for you ;D
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http://www.metacafe.com/watch/87003/p90_instructor/
Never heard of it before. The layout of the weapon is awsome! I'd be curious to see how it did in combat. Probably good piercing body armor. Combat ranges are a lot further, and the action is much more hectic than personal defense. Taking time for headshots everytime would seem detrimental to my life expectancy to put it lightly. I'd be pretty scared being one of the first guys to use that little round for that purpose.
I've seen bunches of video's of guys shot with 9mil's and .40's walking and shooting back for a WHILE after they got hit in the torso. My take on it is headshots only with any handgun or caliber under 7.62X39. Just me though.
.223's are for prairie dogs. NOT a good choice for anything bigger than coyote's in any condition. To light for even the coyote body shots IMO. Thats just me though. I see coyote's as a crappy version of a dog, not vermen, no need to make them suffer.
I'd love to have one of these. Are they available for average Joe yet?
On the head shots, I worked for years as a paramedic. Ither are some rock hard heads out there. I picked up on guy shot between the eyes (slightly up on his forehead) with an exit hole in the back of his head It appeared you could trace the bullet track straight through his brain with a pencil. I did start an IV expecting him to crash at any time but he didn't. X-Ray showed thbullet entry in the forehead, slid under his skin to the back of the skull where it exited.
I knew this lumoux. He was allways the one would in some kind of trouble. The ER did take x-rays gave him a tetanus shot. He checked himself out AMA a short while
ll later (after he found his pants) If a man come in to the ER, even for a sore toe, if he is lewd or may cause trouble put him in one of those gowns that has ties in the back but shows your cheeks. The tend to stay sat down a little better when they can't find their pants.
My partner and I went to another bar that the people at the described as one guy hitting th other with the gun but, The patient was unconscious but that is what the wound look like, one caused the butt of a gun. We started & IV, Vital signs nl,On the way back to the hospital (5:00 minute ride) The mini-neurological exam was flawed. When he got to the ER and did the exray, you could see about 3/4 of the #6 shot from a pump 12ga inside the brain cavity with a goodly portion making laps around the inside of his skull. This fellar died.