The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Handguns => Topic started by: Badgersmilk on March 18, 2009, 09:37:31 AM
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What am I doing wrong here? With the factory sights my 30 would shoot 2" high at 25 yards. This is if I cover the bottom half of the bulls eye on the target with the front sight blade. I picked up the XS tritium sights you see here and get the same thing. If I were to shoot it as shown in the picture I'd be about 6" high at 25 yards. If I put the little dot in the middle of the front white dot just barely visible over the rear blade, and cover half the bulls eye I'm still 2" high, same as factory. So shooting at night when only the tritium is visible I'd STILL be 2" high.
Shot a friends 20 with factory sights and IT hit 2" high as well. He said he just "remembers and compensates". I've seen other guys with front blades that were really tall (avatar is one), and I'm guessing thats the only cure. But big front blades can be a problem coming out of holsters. I havent seen any lower rear sights as yet.
(http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww40/BigCheeseStick/glock1.jpg?t=1237386651)
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While I'm on the Glock, anybody know who makes the little laser on this gun? I've seen several like it, but they looked bigger and of lower quality. This one looks pretty nice!
Isnt the guide rod missing here?
(http://www.gunandgame.com/forums/attachments/humor-forum/18180d1233632672-smile-wait-flash-smile-wait-flash.jpg)
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What am I doing wrong here?
You bought a Glock. (http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/teufel/devil-smiley-024.gif)
;D
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I like that they only have what they need. And so long as you put cartridges in it... It's gonna shoot! Much like a revolver. No "oops, safety's on", never had a jam yet, no goofy decocking lever hanging on it (lamest idea in hand gun history?), I think they show quality engineering and machining considering their formed in a press from melted down pop bottles and baby diapers (JUST KIDDING! RELAX!).
I did replace the guide rod in mine with a S.S. one. Plastic one just seemed to flimsy, possible reliability concern.
I'd trust mine as much as any handgun to defend my life (NOT a good place to be!). :(
It in a small holster with two spare magazines fit nicely in this owners manual cover! Whats funny is I've kept it in a Ford, and a Dodge, several people have seen it, even picked it up and moved it while looking for stuff in my trucks and they never looked twice or paused for a second to notice it!
(http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww40/BigCheeseStick/Glock2.jpg?t=1237392210)
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I did replace the guide rod in mine with a S.S. one. Plastic one just seemed to flimsy, possible reliability concern.
Somewhere there was a video floating around of putting a thousand rounds downrange ASAP. MELTED THE GUIDEROD. Still went bang.
I don't know if Glocks set the sights for 50yds or if it is just 1911 shooters point them high, but I have seen the same thing in my limited experience.
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I had intended to weigh in as an expert here. I mean, I have drunk the Glock cool-aid to the point that my eyeballs float. I thought about whether my 15 year old 17 shoots high, and I realized that I honestly don't know. As I've said before, as a left hand/ left eye dominant guy who just sucks it up and shoots pistols right handed, I point more than aim.I have put more rounds down range with that pistol than I can count (plastic guide rod's still fine too), but I can't picture the actual formal sight picture. I just register, barely, when its right, and I squeeze. I'm not a target shooter, I'm looking for 3"-4" at 25 yards and I get it. Use the force Luke. Its the best I can do. :-\
fightingquaker13
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I would say 2" high at 25 yards seems about right for my G19 and G26
I hold below the A zone to float rounds in the IDPA qualifier or at the bottom of a plate when shooting a rack.
I hold on the Q for qualifier to get chest hits.
My shot scatter on the target is more than 2 inches at that range so I can live with it.
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My shot scatter on the target is more than 2 inches at that range so I can live with it.
There it is in a nut shell.... unless you are shooting off a bench rest or out of a pistol vise, you wont even notice it.
Two Words: Combat Accuracy
Rob, would you like to give the lecture on this?
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I appreciate what your saying about shooting a 2" pattern and calling it good. I'd be VERY happy if I could shot that free handed at 25 yards consistantly. I currently cant with this gun. Not being able to put the sights where I like is a good part of it when shooting fast.
But getting that accuracy or better in "combat" is a matter of pre-meditated tolerance stack up. The more you can eliminate from each variable the better the end tollerance (your pattern, or likelyhood seeing the "pink mist"). A second reason I added the S.S. guide rod was I feel (not stating it as fact or anything) a more ridgid guide rod helps with repeatability between shots and cycle time. Maybe not, I just trust the gun more now is what it amounts to.
Kinda glad to hear other people are seeing the "shooting high" thing though. At least its not some problem with my particular gun! Honestly I've got other hand guns that were set that way from the factory, but they were all adjustable, and adjust I did.
Setting the sights on a compact automatic at 50 yards seems... "Impractical" at best.
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My previous Glock 22 ,shot about 2" high at about 25yds also. Solved it's problem with adjustable sight set. Replaced the cheap front sight with a steel serated blade I ordered, and the Standard Glock adj. rear. But you are all right about the too high problem, only the Model 30's I've shot shoot POI -POA.
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Just cut the bottom half off the white dot with the V of the rear sight. Looks like there is some sort of divot in the center of your front sight dot, put THAT in the V of the rear sight and you should be right on.
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Just my two cents. Alot of people who shoot 1911's all their life, shoot glocks high. Its the way you are used to gripping the gun.
I kinda touched on this with my experience about flat and arched back straps.
I could be way off on this though.
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My G27 shoots POA-POI from 15 to 25 yards with Cor-Bon 165 JHPs.
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It maybe your grip is all wrong. I have 4 glocks a 22,26,19,20, and none shoot high. As for sights they all have factory sights and rods, and I've trained at Gunsite with all of them and had no issues.
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While I'm on the Glock, anybody know who makes the little laser on this gun? I've seen several like it, but they looked bigger and of lower quality. This one looks pretty nice!
Isnt the guide rod missing here?
That is the LaserMax Unimax Rail Mount Laser. Pretty cool, because you can add a light underneath, if you need it, or want it.
http://www.lasermax.com/category.php?id=10
The guide rod is there. The model is one of the longer slide Glocks. Probably a 34, but could be a 35, 17L, or 24.
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Fuz, Thanks man! Thats the one I was looking for!
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=222150
On sale for $160 right now too... 2" high shooting problem solved!
(http://www.midwayusa.com/mediasvr.dll/image?saleitemid=222150)
tom, if I shoot it as shown in the pic I hit about 6" high. Only by doing what you suggest will it hit 2" high. I noticed this at the range shooting prone even with half a dozen different loads (it shoots almost exactly the same groups regardless of ammo type), so I put it on bags latter and found it doing the same thing (not grip related).
I like the XS sights, just not that the gun seems intended to shoot high. The XS's have VERY quick target aquisition, outstanding in the dark! Like the company says. "just dot the i ".
I'll bet at 50 yards it probably would hit POA. If thats where the factory sets them up... Well, seriously!?! That's not an intelligent shot to make with this gun unless you HAVE to. I'd expect to aim two inches high at that distance. Gonna be mighty tough to convince the jury it was self defense!
I'm going to contact Glock just out of curiosity... Let you know.
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I noticed this at the range shooting prone
Shooting prone? ::) ::) ::) ::)
I will say it again, COMBAT ACCURACY
Here is The Pincus giving more insight:
Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79-jkOddd3w
Part 4 (more insight with great shooting examples):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npUl5dITo6I&feature=related
BTW, I think that a 25 yd shot would be just as hard to explain to a jury as a 50 yarder.
This whole 2'' high thing really shouldn't be such a hangup for you since you feel so well protected with that little .22 of yours..... and since your quoted "ballistics" only put that at dropping 1.4'' at 100 yards. I mean why do you even own a subcompact Glock? ::)
http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php/topic,5692.msg67559.html#msg67559
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I have shot a good number of glocks recently in .9, .40, .45 and I generally am not worried about the 25 yard shot. I am generally shooting from 10 yards in. I haven't seen any pattern of shooting high. I focus hard on the top edge of the sight and put my target right on that. If anything I get a bit of left as in still settling in with the right amount of trigger finger.
tom
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My 22 and 23 generally out-shoot me! Try different height sites.
I sold 2 Berettas and plan to replace them with Glocks. Probably 26 and 19, maybe a 34. Does anyone know if the longer slide on the 34 makes them less reliable?
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Fuz,
Sold the Beretta's? Mind me asking why? I'm guessing you had 92's, I have never owned one, but they seem like a good option for 9mm.
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Fuz,
Sold the Beretta's? Mind me asking why? I'm guessing you had 92's, and have never owned one, but they seem like a good option for 9mm.
I got one and after having the factory replace a faulty hammer, I was awesome with that gun. So, I bought a stainless version as well. It shot pretty well, but the trigger had a 19 lb trigger pull. It turned out that it was bad too. I got the trigger fixed and it was pretty sweet. It just got to where it had been 10 years and I never shot them anymore and they were a little finicky anyway. I have 5 other 9's anyway, so I sold them off to get what I've never had any problem of finickiness with, Glocks!
Plus, I have an "Made in Italy" Beretta 96 Centurion that is compeltely reliable. I almost sold it too, but a buddy at the range suggested I hold on to it.
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I have 2 Glock's a model 20 and 22 and both shoot point of aim. My friend has a model 21 and it shoots point of aim also. It's hard to say maybe if someone else shoot's it that is used to a Glock. Maybe try a sub 6 oclock hold. I have to do this with my Sig P226 which was a police gun and has a really tall rear sight. Also when I first started shooting a Glock I switched from a 1911 and it took some getting used to. I did a lot of dry fire practice and it helped me and I still do a lot of dry fire practice. No boom but it is free and I can do it in the house. Good luck I hope this helps.
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Well... Didnt get to far with the phone call. It amounted to. "Everybody shoots different, no two people will see the same thing. We sell shorter rear sights the will make it shoot where you like". I twice asked if the sights were set for poa / poi at 50 meters, or if not what range." both answer's "no, absoluely not, we have shorter sights that should put you where you want to hit. Both yours and your friends gun have the same rear blade, all 10 mm's and .45's have a taller blade than the others, we sell shorter blades that'll get you on target."
I like the tritium sights I've got enough to not go back to factory white dot. Guess I'll just learn to hold low with this gun!
Cant help but wonder about you guys mentioning poa/poi being set at 50 yards though. These guns have features only there to meet police or mil spec.'s, it may have been something to do with that.
Along with the great mystery of how many licks it takes to get to the center of a tootsie pop. "The world may never know!" :)
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Badgersmilk,
Are you sighting using the center of the dot or the top of the dot?
My 45 with night sights shoots high of the top of the post but is dead on at 25 yard on the luminesent dot.
I find the bigger dots more difficult to be percise at longer ranges but very fast in close.
For what it's worth, I've never heard of a 50 yard/meter milspec or LEO spec. on handguns.
Good luck
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Okay guys... this one has gone on awhile... Sorry I missed the page while I was in Europe (Eric, thanks for covering...).
A few things:
1. Avoid Absolutes: "All glocks..." is a bold statement to start any sentence with....
2. If you want to shoot at 25 yards, there are better guns than Glocks and CERTAINLY better sights than the XS. Both were designed for efficient defensive use.
3. Grip angle with Glocks is uncomfortable for some people and if you been using a "flat mainspring housing" type gun, the swell can cause the gun to point awkwardly, BUT IF you are aligning the sights properly, the grip angle isn't involved... if the sight-alignment and sight-picture are "right", you could be holding the gun between your feet and the gun will shoot where it is supposed to.... obviously, this will require the sights to be properly aligned in the first place.
4. If the sights are not properly aligned, get a different height front or rear sight, as recommended to fix up & down and use a proper adjustment tool on the rear sight to fix right & left issues.
Badgersm, great that you contacted Glock to get the answer, btw.... the manufacturers usually are able to give the right answers!
-RJP
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So, I just picked up a Glock 19 yesterday with the standard "platstic" sites and one thing I noticed is that if you are using the white dot on the front site and trying to bring it up so you see it all in the notch, I will be pointing high...ie the top edge is well above the top edge of the back site. when everything is correctly aligned I only see 1/2 to 5/8s of the dot but I am looking at the edge not the dot. At any rate if there is any consistency there that would have you shooting high.
tom
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So, I just picked up a Glock 19 yesterday with the standard "platstic" sites and one thing I noticed is that if you are using the white dot on the front site and trying to bring it up so you see it all in the notch, I will be pointing high...ie the top edge is well above the top edge of the back site. when everything is correctly aligned I only see 1/2 to 5/8s of the dot but I am looking at the edge not the dot. At any rate if there is any consistency there that would have you shooting high.
tom
I'm jealous. I have the money set aside, but there are no stores around here with any Glocks. The store shelves are empty, not just Glock. I guess, repackaging guns with 10 round magazines is part of the blame. California is taking a back seat, even though a gun salesman from TX just told me that Californians buy the most guns per capita.
Ammo shelves are empty too. I went in what is our areas biggest chain of gun stores and all they had on the shelf was .25 and birdshot. Normally, they have everything, even oddball stuff. They always run an ad on Thursdays and today they posted on their website that there would be no ad this week.
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I'm jealous. I have the money set aside, but there are no stores around here with any Glocks. The store shelves are empty, not just Glock. I guess, repackaging guns with 10 round magazines is part of the blame. California is taking a back seat, even though a gun salesman from TX just told me that Californians buy the most guns per capita.
Ammo shelves are empty too. I went in what is our areas biggest chain of gun stores and all they had on the shelf was .25 and birdshot. Normally, they have everything, even oddball stuff. They always run an ad on Thursdays and today they posted on their website that there would be no ad this week.
Ammo...that we don't have much of so it may take a while to break this unit in. Guns there are reasonable numbers of though. I got a Ruger .22 at the same time since ammo is somewhat available and affordable and they are just plain fun. The Glocks, 19s at least are Austrian ones, mine came with 2 15 round mags.
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I have owned four Glocks and continue to come back to them. I am on my second Glock 17 and bought a Glock 21 Small Frame last year. The Glock 22 I had shot extremelly well. My boys, 13 and 11 can blow out the bullseye at 20 yards. Fortunately, I have not encountered one that shoots high but you are shooting a compact and past experience with shorter barrels my rounds go everywhere with the exception of my Smith and Wesson M&P 9 compact. It is dead on. I always use Hornady TAP Ammo but also use Remington and Winchester at the range.
PS: I feel for you guys who are not able to find ammo. Bought the wife a Ruger LCP and we cannot find .380 rounds for her to go to the range and I paid $31 for a box of 20 Cor Bon Pow'r Ball. Not going to waste them downrange at a paper target. Just hope the gun works if and when we need it.
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Rob, I absolutely agree with you. Not in any way a weapon of choice at 25 yards. But its good practice. Even the factory sights were better than the XS's at 25 yards. I only mentioned 25 yards because thats as far as I've tried shooting it, I found it shooting 2" high on every group from 10 feet & on out (Again, thats just the extremes of the ranges I've tried shooting). I should try to take a picture to better explain this, but I'll try. I line these sights up with the top half of bulls eye visible over the very top of the front white spot, I leave the small tritium spot in the middle of the big white spot just barely visible over the rear blade. Lined up this way my 30 will put the group 2" over the top of the bull's eye every time out to 25 yards with the plastic factory sights, or the XS's.
The reason I have such a problem over this 2" issue is that I'm going for a head shot every oportunity I can possibly get. In the heat of the moment, with a dozen other things racing through your mind I dont its a good time to have to pause and think "Oh yeah, this gun hits 2" high, better drop my aim".
Options I see:
1. Get the laser, dont use the iron sights. Even quicker target aquisition, but I dont like lasers because I feel they make the shooter as good a target as they do the bad guy. Plus, I have a BIG problem relying on battery operated gizmo's when if they have a problem, I die!
2. Replace the XS's with a set that has a lower rear blade. I like the XS's A LOT though! :(
3. Train myself to shoot this gun low by instinct. It CAN be done. Not that big of a deal either. MOST of my guns I've trained myself what their sight picture should look like before I ever draw them. Not that any of the others need to be aimed at different points, what I mean is I remember their sights, how they line up, and visualize them on the target before the gun is even there (as I'm drawing it).
I'll be working on #3 for a while before I give up the XS's. I like them a lot. Their QUICK! In the light or dark.
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Badger....... At least you're trying....
There are a lot of resources out here (some linked in this thread).... I think this thread has run its course... Glocks don't all shoot high.
You are apparently shooting high with yours though...
I can't lock threads in this sub-forum, but I am out of this one....... After reading through the material available on efficient defensive shooting skill development, feel free to start another thread on the training options in the Defensive area...
-RJP
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Point taken. Thanks.