The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Defense and Tactics => Topic started by: Badgersmilk on March 29, 2009, 07:42:26 PM
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(http://media.rei.com/media/460401.jpg)
So here's the proposed situation. You are away from home and your spouse hears an unusual sound or sounds from elsewhere in your home (or even if YOU are the one doing this). She or you visually confirm at least ONE perpetrator is present. Empty the can on said target, and regardless how many punks were in your home, NO tough guy is going to be coming down that hall or entering that end of your home for at least half an hour!
I and a few friends have playing with a much weaker version of this stuff (a cheap little key chain sprayer one of the girls had) and I can tell you just the residual lingering residue will not only blind, but nearly burn your lungs out, even burns bare skin badly. This was OUTSIDE, and I was nowhere near the spray area until about 10 minutes after it was sprayed. Then for your next three showers you'll get blinded all over again! Dont underestimate the pain involved here!!! It WILL incapacitate!
This particular can sprays for just over 9 seconds, with a range of just over 30 feet. No wasted recoil time between shots, once the first guy is hit, their ALL going down. They wont be getting away. It does a great job incapaicitating when your blind, coughing your lungs out, and your on the floor in HORRIBLE pain! A whole basket ball team could have got in your house, and again. NOBODY is coming down that hall! Once your wife / you spray the stuff. Go back to the bedroom QUICK! And call the police to come clean up the screaching, wailing idiots.
Short of a perfect head shot (get real here!). This stuff WILL incapacitate faster than any handgun could ever want to. And you pretty much CANT MISS! Once you see this stuff spray you'll understand.
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If it works. If it doesn't incapacitate you as well or instead. If you recover faster than the perp.
Lots of ifs.
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Chemical sprays can be great... but they can also fail miserably. They can also (read "most likely will" when used indoors) contaminate the user as much as the intended target. We didn't have time to address the good & the bad of Chemical Defense during the first season of TBD, but it is something that I intend to address next year.
Meanwhile, IF you choose to have one of these cans standing by for defensive use, make sure that your immediate follow up plan involves an exit strategy that doesn't take you through the cloud. I also recommend being exposed to the exact product you are using prior to carry/staging it. You should know how it will affect you before a critical incident.
-RJP
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I also recommend being exposed to the exact product you are using prior to carry/staging it. You should know how it will affect you before a critical incident.
-RJP
OK. I volunteer to assault Badger with the Bear repellant so that he as some experimental reference with this product.......
;D
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OK. I volunteer to assault Badger with the Bear repellant so that he as some experimental reference with this product.......
;D
If we start a bidding war I bet we could raise enough money to pay off the national debt.
Badger, do your patriotic duty! ;D
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The little woman would be better off using a fire extinguisher or wasp killer. Actually if my wife was in that situation I'd hope she had really armed herself. Cleaning up pepper spray is not for the faint of heart.
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Having been in a boat cabin when OC was used on a drunk, trust me, you don't want to use it in a confined area.
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Chemical sprays can be great... but they can also fail miserably. They can also (read "most likely will" when used indoors) contaminate the user as much as the intended target. We didn't have time to address the good & the bad of Chemical Defense during the first season of TBD, but it is something that I intend to address next year.
Meanwhile, IF you choose to have one of these cans standing by for defensive use, make sure that your immediate follow up plan involves an exit strategy that doesn't take you through the cloud. I also recommend being exposed to the exact product you are using prior to carry/staging it. You should know how it will affect you before a critical incident.
-RJP
How about a foam pepper spray, like the one offered by Cold Steel?
http://www.coldsteel.com/pepper-spray.html
"ADVANTAGES OF INFERNO
Highly Targetable - because it’s a foam and not a spray or fog, it’s easy to hit your target accurately indoors or outdoors with Inferno. It won’t contaminate an entire room. This makes it ideal for use in confined spaces like homes, shops, offices and parking garages."
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Foams can be better in terms of wind issues and the "lingering" effect in the atmosphere... we've also learned the hard way (particularly in correctional facilities) that foam can be wiped off and thrown back at you!
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Meanwhile, here is a "making of" clip from a DVD we did on Chemical Defense. This was the first time the subject was ever sprayed.... notice the complete lack of wailing and incapacitation..... Chemical spray is not fun, and he probably wouldn't volunteer again quite so readily... but if he had wanted to start flailing with the knife and continue the attack, even after a direct spray of the agent into his eyes, he certainly could have in this case. The DVD, when it is released later this year, will be showing the advantages and disadvantages of chemical agents and be combined with segments on electrical devices as well, highlighting the C2 Taser....
(warning FOUL LANGUAGE)
(http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q214/vtcrob/th_Chemical.jpg) (http://s137.photobucket.com/albums/q214/vtcrob/?action=view¤t=Chemical.flv)
-RJP
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Meanwhile, here is a "making of" clip from a DVD we did on Chemical Defense. This was the first time the subject was ever sprayed.... notice the complete lack of wailing and incapacitation..... Chemical spray is not fun, and he probably wouldn't volunteer again quite so readily... but if he had wanted to start flailing with the knife and continue the attack, even after a direct spray of the agent into his eyes, he certainly could have in this case. The DVD, when it is released later this year, will be showing the advantages and disadvantages of chemical agents and be combined with segments on electrical devices as well, highlighting the C2 Taser....
-RJP
Looks like an informative and entertaining DVD. Especially to someone like me that lives in a state that hasn't entirely embraced CCW. This one is gonna be on my wish list with Forever Armed.
While the subject in the video isn't completely incapacitated, It looks like the chemical agent may have given the girl an opportunity to flee. It doesn't look like the attacker was able to open his eyes for a while either.
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While the subject in the video isn't completely incapacitated, It looks like the chemical agent may have given the girl an opportunity to flee. It doesn't look like the attacker was able to open his eyes for a while either.
Exactly! The opportunity to escape under those types of circumstances is what we are showing.... but it requires a lot of awareness and readiness to recognize the need to prepare and then to use the spray (somewhat of a fine motor skill with most canisters).
In this behind-the-scenes, she runs two steps and then turns back to ask her co-worker if he is "okay?".... in the final edit, we stress running completely away and contacting the police....
-RJP
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Great stuff! I'm excited to see it.
It's good to reaffirm that training you already have is still valid. I wish inert canisters were cheaper for more practice.
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When I buy them from a company that I know well, it still costs me almost as much as the real stuff.... The same is true with Taser training cartridges....
In both cases, the engineering and materials that go into the "trainers" represents much of the cost.... same is true for folding training knives and good force-on-force sim firearms. But, the training is usually worth the cost, if it is conducted well.
-rJP
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But, the training is usually worth the cost, if it is conducted well.
Thanks, Rob.
That's kind of what I thought. I hate the idea of having my wife put pepper spray in her purse and have her not know what discharging it will be like. She'll be getting a couple of inert units.
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Great video! I notice them asking him to scrub with soap and water really well to get the stuff off, anybody know of a good option for clean up / neutralize the stuff if it were used indoors? Pets probably wont be to happy to stumble accross any missed residue.
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Good Question.... Not really thought it about it from that standpoint.... we use Baby Shampoo for personal clean-up.... Although they do make specific agents, such as "bio-shield" that are sold for the purpose.
-RJP
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I think I remember seeing or hearing somewhere of people useing hairspray on their clothing to make the
powder stick so it doesn't become airborn again. I guess that could be a short term solution with walls,
carpet, car interior, ect.
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Great video! I notice them asking him to scrub with soap and water really well to get the stuff off, anybody know of a good option for clean up / neutralize the stuff if it were used indoors? Pets probably wont be to happy to stumble accross any missed residue.
Its going to be hard on the furniture, but I wouldn't worry about the pets too much. When I went to Alaska few years ago, the fish and game guy I talked to about bear defense, advised me that I shouldn't spray down any cached food. The reason was that after a few days it breaks down and the bears are actually attracted to the smelll and will lick and dig up the site. I guess its the capsacin. I know this was true of a puppy I had. He liked to chew on my wicker coffee table, so acting on advice, I rubbed it with Datl Do It hot sauce. It worked initially, but the next day it was back to acting as a condiment. Of course the dog was from Texas. ;D
fightingquaker13 who doesn't know if there's anything dagerous in the propellant and will seriousley hurt himself laughing if there is a "Do not ingest!" warning on the pepper sray. ;D
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Exactly! The opportunity to escape under those types of circumstances is what we are showing.... but it requires a lot of awareness and readiness to recognize the need to prepare and then to use the spray (somewhat of a fine motor skill with most canisters).
In this behind-the-scenes, she runs two steps and then turns back to ask her co-worker if he is "okay?".... in the final edit, we stress running completely away and contacting the police....
-RJP
Man I can't wait for the new season to start!!
I keep a can of 3oz "Body guard" LE-10 spray in both my cars as my wife wont carry a firearm.
At 2million Scoville units with 10% Oleoresin Capsicum, this stuff is very potent.
Better still, she is pretty good at awareness. And we all know that is the 1st line of defense.
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Just to clarify, that vid clip wasn't from TBD... it is from an upcoming DVD from the Personal Defense Video series...
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My question is what is the shelf life of these sprays?
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My question is what is the shelf life of these sprays?
Pepper sprays have an expiration date stamped on each can that should be adhered to but, generally, they have a shelf life of a minimum 3 years and a maximum 6 years.
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Pepper sprays have an expiration date stamped on each can that should be adhered to but, generally, they have a shelf life of a minimum 3 years and a maximum 6 years.
Thanks.
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He looks like he got more then he bargained for. Although he was not screaming or freaking out, he did look used and abused which would be a good thing if he was a bad guy. :)
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Thought I'd bring this one up again...
I bought some Inferno Spray from Cold Steel the other day. I've always been impressed with their knives so I figured they wouldn't skimp on this spray either. I got two key ring sized and two 2 1/2 oz size (the maximum a civilian can own in California). The wife keeps her key ring size in her purse. She doesn't drive (long story) and walks and takes public transit all over town. Since she can't carry (Again, California here) a gun we decided to go for spray as an option. I'm also getting her some self defense training from my friend's wife, who's been training women's self defense for 14 years now. We keep the other key ring size handy in the truck and the other two larger sizes staged as appropriate.
Some of the reasons I bought this instead of other options:
Cold Steel's repuation for a high quality product
The liqufying foam (can't fling it off back at you)
The direct targeting of the spray foam (didn't seem like alot of splash contamination)
The easy soap and water clean up claims
The description (claims) of the ingredients and how they break down and attack the bad guy's systems.
Rob,
It would be cool if you could contact Lynn at Cold Steel and ask him to compare/demonstrate his product to what you have access to in a show. His claims on this product seem to make it a pretty good option to have in the toolbox.