The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Politics & RKBA => Topic started by: 1776 Rebel on April 05, 2009, 07:21:13 PM
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In the following article it is clear that even the MSM has heard that active shooters require a quick response. The video of cops outside a very small building with only 2 rooms (from the graphics I have seen in the news) laughing and standing around for 45 minutes is sending up all sorts of red flags. Now Binghamton is not a huge department but surely it must have been exposed to such training. The Chiefs response that they didn't hear any shots is embarrassing if not down right silly. Like the bus incident up in Canada he could have been very quietly cutting the heads off of people (in fact he had carried with him a hunting knife). In addition the sec'y who was one of the folks on her cell phone to 911 was left untreated for 90 minutes according to reports. She could easily have lost her life in the ensuing time.
I just wish more departments would get on board.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090405/ap_on_re_us/binghamton_shootings
Binghamton officials defend response to massacre
By JOHN KEKIS, Associated Press Writer John Kekis, Associated Press Writer
1 hr 42 mins ago
BINGHAMTON, N.Y. – Even if police officers had immediately entered the immigrant center where a gunman had just shot down 13 people, the victims' injuries were so severe that none would have survived, a county prosecutor said Sunday.
The shooting at the American Civic Association stopped shortly after the first 911 calls came in at 10:30 a.m. Friday, but police didn't enter the building until nearly 45 minutes later.
Survivors reported huddling for hours in a basement, not knowing whether they were still in danger after the gunman, 41-year-old Jiverly Wong, killed 13 people.
Medical examiners who conducted autopsies reported that the victims' injuries were so severe they would not have survived, Broome County District Attorney Gerald F. Mollen said.
"We definitively can say nobody was shot after police arrival, and nobody who had been shot could have been saved even if the police had walked in the door within the first minute," Mollen said.
The prosecutor's comments came at a news conference Sunday, an hour before officials released a list of names and home countries of the victims.
Four Chinese were among those killed, and a Chinese student was also shot in the arm and leg but survived, officials said. The other victims came from Haiti, Pakistan, the Philippines, Iraq, Brazil, Vietnam and the United States.
The first 911 calls came in at 10:30 a.m., police Chief Joseph Zikuski said at a news conference. The callers spoke broken English, and it took dispatchers 2 minutes to sort out what was happening, he said.
Patrol officers arrived at 10:33 a.m., five minutes before a wounded receptionist called police to report a gunman in the building, Zikuski said. Police had earlier said it was that call that brought them to the immigration center.
When police arrived at the scene, the gunfire had stopped, so they believed there was no "active gunman" in the center and decided to wait for the SWAT team to arrive, Zikuski said.
The SWAT team entered the building until 11:13 a.m., 43 minutes after the first call to police.
"I'm not sure why they wouldn't have gone in there if the shooting was already done," said Kent Moyer, president of California-based World Protection Group, which offers protection services for corporate, commercial, industrial, entertainment, residential and retail clients. "What is happening all across the board in law enforcement is they've switched the tactic. They're not relying on waiting until the SWAT team gets there."
Moyer said many law-enforcement agencies conduct rapid-response training where the uniformed patrol officers are taught that "once they have sufficient backup, that they go in prior to the SWAT team getting there."
Zikuski contrasted the scene with the 1999 Columbine High School shooting in Colorado, in which 15 people died, including the two teenage gunmen. There, he said, it would have been better for police to enter the building as quickly as possible since it was obvious the gunmen were still alive and shooting.
"At Columbine, there were numerous shots ringing out and law enforcement stood by," he said. "I was, quite frankly, horrified when I knew that."
Pressed on why police didn't go into the building, Zikuski said information they were getting from the receptionist — specifically whether Wong was still alive — was uncertain enough to warrant caution. And unlike Columbine, police in Binghamton could be more deliberate because the gunman had stopped firing by the time they arrived.
"He was dead. We didn't know it," Zikuski said. "If there's a bunch of cops laying on the floor shot trying to rescue somebody else, it's not going to help anybody. All I can tell you is that we did what was expected and was the right thing to do under the circumstances. We did the right thing."
Zikuski said his officers would have gone into the building if shots had still been flying.
"If you arrive on the scene — the first two to four guys — and there's an active shooter, they enter," he said.
That is standard protocol today.
"Most law enforcement agencies have already changed their policies," Moyer said. "Obviously, that's something the state has to re-evaluate whether what they did was effective or not."
When reporters repeated the line of questioning on timing, Mollen jumped in to defend the police chief, a 30-year veteran of the force who has served as interim chief three times in the past 15 years.
"I don't think it's fair to ask Chief Zikuski to respond to hypotheticals," Mollen said, adding that there would be a full review and report on the shooting, including the police response.
A former FBI agent who was also a member of a SWAT team said the response was appropriate.
"Lord, that seems like that was fast," said Harold Copus, who now runs a consulting company based in Atlanta. "When something like this happens, as you can imagine, it's mass confusion."
Wong was "an avid gunman" who had recently visited a firing range weekly, Zikuski said, but authorities still don't know his motive.
Authorities don't know whether he had a particular target, and Zikuski said the choice of targets may have been random.
Officials have said Wong was apparently upset about losing his job at a vacuum plant and about people picking on him for his limited English.
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In the following article it is clear that even the MSM has heard that active shooters require a quick response. The video of cops outside a very small building with only 2 rooms (from the graphics I have seen in the news) laughing and standing around for 45 minutes is sending up all sorts of red flags. Now Binghamton is not a huge department but surely it must have been exposed to such training. The Chiefs response that they didn't hear any shots is embarrassing if not down right silly. Like the bus incident up in Canada he could have been very quietly cutting the heads off of people (in fact he had carried with him a hunting knife). In addition the sec'y who was one of the folks on her cell phone to 911 was left untreated for 90 minutes according to reports. She could easily have lost her life in the ensuing time.
I just wish more departments would get on board.
Amen. It was the same song and dance at Colombine. Officers waiting for maps of the school and basically perfect intel when people were dying. Here's a clue, follow the gunfire, the bad guy's probably close by. I get that cops want to go home at the end of the shift and I get that waiting 5 minutes for at least one other unit to get their might be the tactically smart thing to do. However at the end of the day LEOs knew the job was dangerous when they took it and there are times when they need to risk earning their money the hard way. When civilians are being killed is at the top of the list. When I was an army cadet they made clear to us from my first ROTC class to my graduation that my priority was my mission, my men and my life, in exactly that order. They also made clear when we signed the contract that it did not guarantee a round trip ticket. I'm not saying I want our LEOs to be rambo, but 45 minutes in a two room building when a 911 call identified a single shooter and you know you have at least one civilian bleeding out?
fightingquaker13
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Compare that to the shooting in Moore County, NC.
http://www.news14.com/Default.aspx?ArID=607010
From what I read and saw on the news, a single officer went in and shot the shooter which ended the killings inside. I am a firm believer in that something should be done instead of waiting when lives are on the line, but what do I know, I'm just a "avid gunowner".
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Yet another example of a number of ideas -
when seconds count, LEOs are minutes away
and
LEOs are not obligated - legally or morally - to intervene in any crime for any reason in any amount of time.
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Even if police officers had immediately entered the immigrant center where a gunman had just shot down 13 people, the victims' injuries were so severe that none would have survived, a county prosecutor said Sunday.
"We definitively can say nobody was shot after police arrival, and nobody who had been shot could have been saved even if the police had walked in the door within the first minute," Mollen said.[/b]
What they all (spokesman, police, media) all deftly avoided saying was even one sheepdog CCW on premise would have been at minimum at least as effective as the police (no difference) or at best stopping the rampage long before 13 were killed.
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I am going to date myself here...But my concept of how to respond to these kinds of situations was formed many decades ago. Specifically by the New York State response to the Attica Prison riots back in 1971. Governor Rockefeller (a compassionate bleeding heart liberal Republican I might add) dittled for FOUR DAYS after the prisoners took prison guards and other prisoners hostage. It gave the rioters the time to make weapons, dig battle trenches in the yard and publicly torture and kill a number of folks. When finally the Good Governor grew the cojones to send in the State Troopers, they had to kill their way back into the prison. PLAIN STUPIDITY. It could have been over in the first hour. But instead, ALL THE GUARDS and a good number of prisoners had to die needlessly.
I vowed after having watched the debacle real time on TV that I would never hesitate. Better to be too aggressive in the first instance than to live the rest of your life regretting your inaction.
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I am going to date myself here...But my concept of how to respond to these kinds of situations was formed many decades ago. Specifically by the New York State response to the Attica Prison riots back in 1971. Governor Rockefeller (a compassionate bleeding heart liberal Republican I might add) dittled for FOUR DAYS after the prisoners took prison guards and other prisoners hostage. It gave the rioters the time to make weapons, dig battle trenches in the yard and publicly torture and kill a number of folks. When finally the Good Governor grew the cojones to send in the State Troopers, they had to kill their way back into the prison. PLAIN STUPIDITY. It could have been over in the first hour. But instead, ALL THE GUARDS and a good number of prisoners had to die needlessly.
I vowed after having watched the debacle real time on TV that I would never hesitate. Better to be too aggressive in the first instance than to live the rest of your probably very short life regretting your inaction.
Helping the thought along...
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We have been trained in the Active Shooter (Murderer) scenario. We get a couple of people on scene with m4's (which are in all cars) and we go in. But going in as a single is not ruled out either. The need to evaluate each incident on its own merits determines this. This incident was an active incident and should have had a similar response IMO. Columbine was the big change maker. But like many P.D.s; training is minimal and infrequent and gives administrators fits when they see their people being trained in offensive actions. They worry about the litigation afterwards. The administrators like to play the odds and think NIMBY. The educators in our town are not much better. We can not get in the schools to train and only were given a walk through two years ago. Many times the LEO's will have to pull from their own knowledge and guts when confronted with an incident like this.
The young sheepdog in NC who went in by himself did what he had to do. He did not have the time or manpower available to wait. A true 5%'er he is. A hero.
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Any one remember what stopped Charles Whitman it the Texas tower incident back in the 60's ?
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Any one remember what stopped Charles Whitman it the Texas tower incident back in the 60's ?
Several LEO's and an armed CITIZEN who had all decided that they were tired as hell of getting shot at.
Brave men. All of them.
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Several LEO's and an armed CITIZEN who had all decided that they were tired as hell of getting shot at.
Brave men. All of them.
Wrong way around, The cops on the scene had revolvers and shotguns, He had them out ranged , so several "Good Ole Boys" got their hunting rifles out of their trucks and suppressed him. When the first Police officer (alone) got to him he found Whitman had been killed by one of the CIVILIAN rifles.
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Wrong way around, The cops on the scene had revolvers and shotguns, He had them out ranged , so several "Good Ole Boys" got their hunting rifles out of their trucks and suppressed him. When the first Police officer (alone) got to him he found Whitman had been killed by one of the CIVILIAN rifles.
Not exactly. The bubbas with hunting rifles did supress him enough for 2 officers and an armed citizen to get into the tower and swiss cheese him.
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Can't vouch for total accuracy due to the place it comes from, but it sounds like what I remember from the History channel story I saw once.
After tending to wounded in the stairwell area between the 27th and 28th floors, APD Officers Milton Shoquist, Harold Moe, and George Shepard were making their way up the stairs to join APD Officer Phillip Conner and Texas Department of Public Safety Agent W. A. "Dub" Cowan, both arriving in the tower’s 28th floor observation deck reception room just as APD Officers Houston McCoy and Jerry Day and a civilian, Allen Crum, were following APD Officer Ramiro Martinez out the south door onto the observation deck. Martinez, closely followed by McCoy, proceeded north on the east deck while Day, followed by Crum, proceeded west on the south deck. Several feet before reaching the southwest corner area, Crum accidentally discharged a shot from his borrowed rifle at the same time Martinez jumped onto the northeast corner area, and rapidly fired all six rounds from his .38 police revolver. As Martinez was firing, McCoy jumped just to the right of Martinez and with his 12 gauge shotgun, fired two fatal 00 buck shots into the head, neck, and left side of Whitman, as the photo to the right shows, who was sitting with his back towards the north wall in the northwest corner area approximately fifty feet distance. He was partially shielded by the observation deck tower lights and in a position to defend a confrontation from either the northeast corner or the southwest corner.
Martinez threw his empty revolver onto the deck, grabbed McCoy's shotgun, ran to the prone body of Whitman, and fired a point blank shot into the upper left arm, as the photo to the right shows. Martinez then threw the shotgun on the deck and hurriedly left the scene repeatedly shouting, "I got him." Moe, with a hand held radio that had not functioned inside the building, on hearing Martinez as he ran past, relayed Martinez’s words to the APD radio dispatcher.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Whitman
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As more information comes out regards the shooting incident, the anti's are now pushing to raise the price of ammo.
http://www.mercurynews.com/breakingnews/ci_12097405
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Typical poor reporting.
First it's the "cops" that say he is a 'new Rambo'. Then the police chief says no problem with 98 rounds in a minute. Then the 'new Rambo' remark is attributed to a civilian range owner. So which is it Mr reporter?
Also siting Chris Rock in a serious discussion losses you many points.
$40 for 98 rounds? What, were is 9mm and .45 actually firing .308?
Lord, this fight gets old but we gotta keep on 'em.