The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: jj on April 08, 2009, 08:16:32 PM
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I just can not belive this. NO PRIMERS....
The War / Conflicts are still going on - No Change.
People getting laid off? BULL.... Heck let them make primers there is a demand for them.
Politics..........Must be the ans.
MICHAEL ! Who is at pulling this chitt.........other then B-hole.
How do respond?
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I would say that increased demand for both Ammo AND reloading supplies is the problem. Manufacturers probably will not expand production capabilities in the near future as it is probably going to taper off eventually.
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BULL... Money is to be made........There is something else going on.........
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Hello jj, and welcome. A recent gun show here in S. Fl. "used" to have reloading supplies, the last three shows have seen a dramatic decrease in availability of any/all handloading provisions.
The ammo rep. selling packaged ammo as fast as the register could ring up sales, said he was having problems getting anything regarding primers.
I agree something is going on...
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Money is to be made
The factories are running at full capacity. Primers for reloaders come from excess capacity and there is no excess capacity right now. That and with ammo prices being artificially inflated right now there is no incentive to sell primers on the side as the ammo companies make much higher margins on the ammo versus the primers. So they are happy to sell as much ammo as possible and really don't/can't (business wise) care about the secondary market (handloaders) that in reality competes against them.
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BULL... Money is to be made........There is something else going on.........
I am guessing you have no idea how much capital is needed for primer manufacturers to increase production. I have heard from manufacturers on several audio shows their production is AT capacity, there is no more they can make without buying new machines to add. That costs a lot. And are YOU going to make sure you buy all the excess capacity when the hoarding is finished? If you are let the manufacturers know and I'm sure they will buy the new machines, if you aren't then just wait and supply will eventually return to 'normal'
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The factories are running at full capacity. Primers for reloaders come from excess capacity and there is no excess capacity right now. That and with ammo prices being artificially inflated right now there is no incentive to sell primers on the side as the ammo companies make much higher margins on the ammo versus the primers. So they are happy to sell as much ammo as possible and really don't/can't (business wise) care about the secondary market (handloaders) that in reality competes against them.
Hmptt...factories running at full capacity? were they doing that 6 months ago? I don't think so. BUT there was primers you could buy anywhere.
Ammo on shelfs.. 6 months ago? YES there was ammo was on the shelf.
Bottom Line.. who? is buying all this up?
Can't be the handloaders. Can't be the ammo mfg. cuz there is no ammo at Wally World.......Can't be the US goverment, because there no new war.
Perhaps there selling it to China? Alkida?
Or B-Hole has his hands in it?
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At least Federal brand has always been spotty for availability. Dealers get in one huge shipment every several months, no consistant supply. When they show up again buy a couple cases. They're cheap enough, if stored properly wont "go bad", and a few thousand should hold you a while. ;) You want to do it that way for "lot consistancy" anyway!
ccd, and deamonpi make good sense.
Have you seen the price of bullets lately?! Thats what I ran out of. Cant bring myself to pay more for bullets than I did a year ago for loaded ammo!! I'd consider casting (as you do), but the jackets have to many benefits to me.
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I usually get my primers and powder at USPSA matches from a local guy to save the $20 haz mat fee. The last 2 months he has run out immediately because of the demand. I have heard of huge stockpiles of primers by reloaders. Last purchase was Federal @ $25 per 1000. So I went to Cabelas, who will honor backorder prices and paid $29.95. The primers like my 7.62 ammo will eventually come in. I hated paying the haz mat fee.
Put some on backorder, you can always cancel if they become available locally.
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I have a freind that moved to another community where he works as an electrician. One of their clients is a well known ammo manufacturer. My friend says that he could just as well call the plant his homebase, because for the last year and a half that is almost the only place he has worked. It is a constant flow of new machinery for both upgrading of old and increasing production.
His report is that the trucks are rolling constantly with raw materials coming in and finished product leaving. The only thing he knows is what he gets told - "Don't look for another job, because we need you here for a loooooooong time!"
I believe that there is a genuine demand issue that no one was ready for. Some is for legitamate use, and some is hording by users. I also believe that the "big boys" may not be ramping up (expanding) as much as they could due to investor ownership that operates differently and for fear of what is coming out of DC in months to come.
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I have a freind that moved to another community where he works as an electrician. One of their clients is a well known ammo manufacturer. My friend says that he could just as well call the plant his homebase, because for the last year and a half that is almost the only place he has worked. It is a constant flow of new machinery for both upgrading of old and increasing production.
His report is that the trucks are rolling constantly with raw materials coming in and finished product leaving. The only thing he knows is what he gets told - "Don't look for another job, because we need you here for a loooooooong time!"
I believe that there is a genuine demand issue that no one was ready for. Some is for legitamate use, and some is hording by users. I also believe that the "big boys" may not be ramping up (expanding) as much as they could due to investor ownership that operates differently and for fear of what is coming out of DC in months to come.
M58,
Ask him if they need trucking or parcel shipping help. ;D
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Another thing is they hesitate to invest money in ramping up for an increase in demand that may fade in 6 months and leave them with far more capacity than demand. People hired for the bubble would have to be laid off, excess machinery and space would be non productive expense as it needs to be paid for, insured and maintained whether it is producing or not.
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Hmptt...factories running at full capacity? were they doing that 6 months ago? I don't think so. BUT there was primers you could buy anywhere.
Ammo on shelfs.. 6 months ago? YES there was ammo was on the shelf.
I will make this really simple to understand.
April-->March-->-->February-->January-->December-->November What happened in November?
BTW there HAVE been ammunition and primer shortages over the last 8 years for other reasons, which you would have noticed if you shot 223 and 308 in large quantities like some of us do. It is just that now everything is in limited supply. Normal pistol ammo actually started getting harder to find last summer it just didn't affect most shooters so they did not notice or the mass hording would have started much sooner.
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April-->March-->-->February-->January-->December-->November What happened in November?
BHO was elected.
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Funny, I walked into the local gun store and bought 1000 shot gun primers this morning. Going to load up some 16 ga for the summer.
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Seems to be that way every where, shotgun stuff yes, Rifle and pistol No.
I have not heard comments either way about caps for black powder.
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Same shop I bought 100 pistol primers to reload some rounds for my 41 mag, 3 weeks ago. Just like today,it was hand them cash, walk out twith them. Prices have gone up, but I'm not having any prob finding any ammo or primers. Brass in these parts is hard to find as we have alot of brass collectors here.( I mean alot) Other then 40, but I'm sure that is do to the fact that just about every one shoots 40. When your limited to 10 rounds, most people want something more then 9mm. Plus most of the local LEA use public ranges for qualifying. 1st sat of every month one range closes in the morning. at 50 rounds for each LEO, it adds up fast.
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Shotgun primers are pretty much available everywhere. My LGS has handgun primers in stock but limits everyone to 500 max. Rifle primers have been very difficult to locate so if your loads are only worked up with one type of primer your SOL. Of course 223 Rem is still readily available as long as you can afford to shoot the Corbon stuff loaded with the triple shocks.
I have personally been waiting for Remington to release their 62gr UCL 223 load since last year's SHOT Show but it has evidently turned into vaporware thanks to the current production/demand realities. Thankfully Federal is bringing out their 223 62 gr DHS load (which is one of my stockpile loads) in the Fusion line, which hopefully won't suffer the same vaporware fate.
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WOW my "MIDWAY" catalog for May 2009 just came in the mail...
On page # 11 "Primers" Yup, there listed.... Checked on the internet and guess what?
NO primers for SALE / NO Backorders..........
Michael Needs to find out what the problem is with his sponsors....
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All online businesses dealing in ammo have primers listed whether they are in stock or not. I have talked to ammo manufacturers who are having problems now simply because primers are not available. They cannot make ammo.
CCI, Federal and Winchester have for a long time rolled out primers with full capacity. After November '08, the private market exploded. In addition to high demand from ammo manufacturers supplying the military, private citizens suddenly started to triple (even more than that) their orders/purchases. The manufacturers were not prepared for that, they were already on max in terms of production. Simple math tells me that it will take months before we can normalize the supply line. And the manufacturers are afraid of investing in more tooling and machinery to fill the demand. Reason is that when/if we are back to normal, they will end up with empty production cells and unused machinery at the factories.
Have in mind that some of us (me included) have purchased primers to fill need the demand for the next 3-4 years. Normally I buy primers every third month or so. It is crazy and the industry was not prepared for the Obama effect on guns and ammo.
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Firearms demand is up, A LOT! That translates into more demand for ammo.
This from Ruger:
Chief Executive Officer Michael O. Fifer made the following comments related to the first quarter of 2009:
* The level of demand for our products during the first quarter of 2009 has been unusually high, with more than 500,000 units ordered.
* Our firearms sales grew 55.5% from the first quarter of 2008 and 8.7% from the fourth quarter of 2008.
* Our firearms unit production grew 69.3% from the first quarter of 2008 and 25.6% from the fourth quarter of 2008.
Talked to a guy at a big box sporting goods store the other day. He won a Kmiber .45 auto at an NRA event about 3 weeks ago and cant find any ammo. He lamented about not being able to shoot his new gun.
I have had some stuff on back order forever from several sources from parts to ammo, to magazines.etc. I called these places as I had my charge number changed. The one AR parts manufacturer/supplier I talked to said that things had not slowed down at all and they were still working on orders from December. They are working 24/7 with no end in sight.
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Another thing is they hesitate to invest money in ramping up for an increase in demand that may fade in 6 months and leave them with far more capacity than demand. People hired for the bubble would have to be laid off, excess machinery and space would be non productive expense as it needs to be paid for, insured and maintained whether it is producing or not.
Exactly right. The industry is planning for the eventual crash in this demand. Eventually everyone will have their credit cards maxed out, and the gun / ammo frenzy will end. Demand will drop to below average, as people will have to pay off their credit cards while sitting on 20,000 rounds of .223. Its just how the market cycle works.
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If they ramp up capacity like the Detroit 3 did during the SUV craze, the ammo companies will be looking for Bailout Money in 5 years.
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Exactly right. The industry is planning for the eventual crash in this demand. Eventually everyone will have their credit cards maxed out, and the gun / ammo frenzy will end. Demand will drop to below average, as people will have to pay off their credit cards while sitting on 20,000 rounds of .223. Its just how the market cycle works.
You here that Marshal Halloway! You have a 3 or 4 year supply and order every 3 months. what about us poor folks who can only order a few thousand primers year that will last us 3 or 4 years? WE can't get any because people like YOU? are the ones who are hordeing them?
BTW.. Yes people are buying alot more guns, BUT I will bet they don't even go to the range but 1 or twice a year just to see if the gun goes bang.
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You here that Marshal Halloway! You have a 3 or 4 year supply and order every 3 months. what about us poor folks who can only order a few thousand primers year that will last us 3 or 4 years? WE can't get any because people like YOU? are the ones who are hordeing them?
BTW.. Yes people are buying alot more guns, BUT I will bet they don't even go to the range but 1 or twice a year just to see if the gun goes bang.
I bet most guns don't even see that.
Just think, in a few years people will be selling all this ammo and guns for pennys. It happend with y2k, it will happen again.
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I bet most guns don't even see that.
Just think, in a few years people will be selling all this ammo and guns for pennys. It happend with y2k, it will happen again.
Agree absolutely...A good friend of mine who has NEVER expressed any interest in guns, caught the bug back in January. He just HAD to get an AR and a pistol. He is working and making a very good buck. Walked out and picked up a 1400 dollar S&W AR and a 1000 dollar Sig 229. Went shooting with the pistol once. He had zero clue as to how to clean a gun. Been on the phone with him multiple times trying to educate him. No interest in joining the NRA, nor acquiring any more guns. Seems he has lost quite a bit of interest in the new toys already...All this has nothing to do with Obama, has nothing to do with 2A rights. Has everything to do with MARKETING and MARKET MADNESS....tulips in Holland...
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You here that Marshal Halloway! You have a 3 or 4 year supply and order every 3 months. what about us poor folks who can only order a few thousand primers year that will last us 3 or 4 years? WE can't get any because people like YOU? are the ones who are hordeing them?
BTW.. Yes people are buying alot more guns, BUT I will bet they don't even go to the range but 1 or twice a year just to see if the gun goes bang.
Poor me, Poor me. Quit blaming everyone else. Maybe if you had some foresight...........? A few thousand primers? Thats not very much, couple months supply at best.
You whine like a little school girl, shut up already.
BTW, if peolple are hoarding, good, more deals for me down the road. Thats right, me, me, me, me, me, me.
Being prepared and looking at the future is not hoarding, it's being smart.