The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Defense and Tactics => Topic started by: fullautovalmet76 on April 08, 2009, 10:04:20 PM
-
I am starting this topic in hopes that Rob will elaborate on his discussion with us on Sunday about sights. Rob called my sights the "Audacity of Hope" sights! :o ;D But I was hitting all of the targets he had us shoot at..... ;)
Rob, for the group, what is your take on when do we need sights in critical incidents and what type would you recommend and why?
-
(Can o worms)
My Thoughts:
1. The "Obama Sights" joke was a result of the fact that your sight completely covered some of the possible targets on the SEB when we moved back to 40 feet or so. If your front sight covers is larger than the target you want to hit, you are screwed. As we discussed, that is sniper pistol distance and not a likely defensive shooting situation.. particularly against a small target. And... I think I do recall someone noting that they hadn't shot at that distance with those sights yet after a miss or two.....
That said, the time you are MOST likely to need your sights is when you have extreme distance or a smaller target available.... so, choosing a large front dot that doesn't work well under those conditions makes no sense to me (even worse when you combine it with an imprecise rear sight design). The Large front dot sights were specifically put on pistols because of the assumption that you must see the front sight before you pull the trigger. I think that assumption is wrong. Keep in mind that I know the guy who started their use & the company that first made them... we're friends and we've had the conversations a few times.... He finds it humorous that I refer to his sights as "distracting".... I was trying to be nice.
2. "When should they be used?" That's an easy one: When you need them. How do you know that? Frequent and Realistic practice. There is no magic plausible defensive distance or target size. When you train, if you push yourself to use as little time/effort/energy as possible to get your hits, you'll figure out when you need them and when you don't. Please check out the Podcast on the topic of the "Balance of Speed & Precision" (recently linked in another thread in this forum) .
3. "What type Should be used?" Going back to item #1, keep in mind that your are most likely to NEED the sights with a smaller target and/or longer distances, so your sights should be designed for precision shooting. If your sights are designed to be seen quickly/easily/intuitively/whateverly at close distances when you probably don't need them, they are probably over-priced solutions to a problem imagined by target shooters claiming defensive context. The stock sights on most guns are Good to Go, as far as I am concerned. The caveat might be to upgrade plastic sights to metal ones for durability and reliability during extreme handling (such as racking the slide with the rear sight during one-handed reloads/malfunction clearing). I've seen a few Glock rear's ripped off, but honestly not very often compared to the number of times I've seen them abused (or abused them myself). The early M&P plastic sights broke easily, but I understand that the problem was addressed and haven't seen a front or rear break in over a year.
I'll be standing by for conventional wisdom, overused cliches, irrelevant claims of personal ability and (hopefully) some insightful thoughts....
-RJP
-
You've convinced me to toss the XS's that are on my Glock. Thanks for sharing some clear thought on the subject!
I liked them for night time use, but if its not pitch black the trade just isnt worth it.
Revised:
Well, I'll change them out in 6 months when somebody has them in stock again. Still need a lower .240" rear.
-
"Whateverly"
The third brother of the Everly Brothers from the 60's.....before you were born Rob... ;D
Great points on the sight information...thanks. ;)
-
The only sights I have ever changed are the ones on my lever gun. With every thing else I liked them well enough or didn't buy the gun.
Rob, can I take you class with a single action? My Ruger .357 is hell on clays at 15 yards so 40 feet should be good to go. ;)
(You knew I would have to be first with the "irrelevant claims of personal ability" ;D )
Seriously, what about 'mouse guns' for your course? That is what I carry so if I am going to learn defense pistol that is the one I want to learn on. (P3AT)
-
Rob, given said "clarity of thought"... I cant resist asking any longer.
Would you consider reading through the "when the poop hits the fan" thread and commenting?? Now you are likely in an unique situation for something like this yourself. But your recommendations to "Joe Blow the average armed citizen" (not the idiot that thinks he's going to take on an entire military force)?
Now THAT'S a can o worms!! :)
-
Haz,
Yes, you can take the class with a single action, if I can take pictures and video.
As for the mouseguns, bring 'em! We rarely see anyone who takes the whole course with a small gun (although a good friend an Chicago PD sgt did fire over 1400 rnds out of a J-frames (one alloy, one steel, alternating) during a 2 day course in '07, but I recommend training with what you carry.
****
Badgersmilk,
I saw that thread...... ::).
.... As long as society remains stable for the next 3 months, you'll get a lot of answers from Mike, Mike and I in the new show:
TBD: Survival deals with the topics that you are discussing! Preparation for and Survival During/After large scale distasters.
-RJP
-
I think its always a fun topic! I expect we'll all be around just fine, at least until the next "planet killer" astroid comes for us! ;D ;D ;D
Look forward to the show!
-
Rob,
You forgot the part about night sights. I believe you think they are nice idea but have limited practicality, right? Well, what about shooting at a threat at night some distance (> 7 yds.) away? Is laser grips or laser devices our savior in that context?
Going back to my sights, do you think if I trained enough with them I could overcome their limitations? I really like the fact I can get the sight picture quickly......But if I must I will declare a $120 loss and move on......
-
You forgot the part about night sights. I believe you think they are nice idea but have limited practicality, right? Well, what about shooting at a threat at night some distance (> 7 yds.) away? Is laser grips or laser devices our savior in that context
I didn't forget... you summed it up nicely though. The problem is that while they are very easy to market, for them to be of value, you have to be in a place dark enough to have them matter, but the target has to be someplace with enough light to be identified... AND, you need to be in a situation that calls for the use of sights in the first place. Lasers could work in the same situations, and others, but are a whole 'nother topic with their own plusses & minuses.
Going back to my sights, do you think if I trained enough with them I could overcome their limitations? I really like the fact I can get the sight picture quickly......But if I must I will declare a $120 loss and move on......
This is the part where the student has all the information but still tries to get the instructor to say what he wants to hear.... see my first reply, then remember that, given enough time and effort, you could train to shoot the gun upside down with your little finger pulling the trigger.... but that doesn't mean its a good idea.
-RJP
-
When I wanted to put a red dot on my rifle I instantly realized the problem of covering the target with the dot at certain distances. While some propose that as long as the dot covers the target you are good, I want to see the target as much as possible. The 40mm red dot I chose has a very tiny dot that is bright enough to pick up on a small target (bowling pin) out past 100 yds. As for pistol sites I like the blade and low mount rear as on my 1911. But as Jim Higginbotham says "everyone has to work out their own salvation" OBTW never give up your iron sites on a rifle for those optics that may go out on you.