The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Politics & RKBA => Topic started by: 2HOW on April 13, 2009, 10:16:36 AM
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April 13, 2009
Pirate: " In the future, America will be the one mourning and crying. We will retaliate (for) the killings of our men."
Acting like the aggrieved party, in hallowed jihadist practice. "US captain freed; Somali pirates vow to retaliate," by Todd Pitman and Pauline Jelinek for Associated Press, April 13 (thanks to all who sent this in):
NAIROBI, Kenya – Bracing themselves on a rolling warship in choppy seas, U.S. Navy snipers fired three flawless shots to kill a trio of Somali pirates and free the American sea captain being held at gunpoint, a Navy commander said Monday.
Angry pirates vowed retaliation for the deaths, raising fears for the safety of some 230 foreign sailors still held hostage in more than a dozen ships anchored off the coast of lawless Somalia.
"From now on, if we capture foreign ships and their respective countries try to attack us, we will kill them (the hostages)," Jamac Habeb, a 30-year-old pirate, told the Associated Press from one of Somalia's piracy hubs, Eyl. "(U.S. forces have) become our No. 1 enemy." [...]
Yet Sunday's blow to their lucrative activities is unlikely to stop pirates, simply because of the size of the vast area stretching from the Gulf of Aden and the coast of Somalia.
"This could escalate violence in this part of the world, no question about it," said Gortney, the commander of U.S. Naval Forces Central Command.
A Somali pirate agreed.
"Every country will be treated the way it treats us. In the future, America will be the one mourning and crying," Abdullahi Lami, one of the pirates holding a Greek ship anchored in the Somali town of Gaan, told The Associated Press on Monday. "We will retaliate (for) the killings of our men."...
http://www.jihadwatch.org/
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Once again the two bit hoods seems to feel empowered. Blow their dumb asses out of the water. Hunt them down and destroy anything near them at the same time. When crime pays, it increases.
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the last thing that went through their minds, besides the 50 cal bullet, was the realization that maybe they had made a serious mistake, hijacking an American ship.
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Doubt very much it was .50 cal but whatever caliber it was, it worked...
Like most everyone else, I could care less what the pirate "envoy" thinks, don't care what Europeans think, or the Chineese or anyone else in the United Nations....what I care about is Americans...period!
I don't care if they like us, only that they fear us!
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Hmm, we treat you wrong, you retaliate and don't play our little game now you are "really mad" classic.
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Anger comes from fear and frustration. I for one am glad these guys are scared and frustrated. My only hope is they are rational enough to choose non US flagged vessles in the future.
FQ3
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all we really need to do is arm some a couple ships with say 20 mm or 37 mm cannons( hell a M2 would most likly work, but bigger is better) and well trained peronal to man them.
Then announce to the world that coming with in XXX yds = priacy and you will be shot.
It should only take one or two times for them to get the message.
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Anger comes from fear and frustration. I for one am glad these guys are scared and frustrated. My only hope is they are rational enough to choose non US flagged vessles in the future.
FQ3
They will only take that rationale if they know without a doubt that death is the only outcome for taking on a U.S. flagged ship. The real hope is that our current President has the intestinal fortitude to continue "on message". I will give him credit, he sent the right one this round.
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Well, they have at least to say something. I am afraid they are crazy enough to try again. The upside in this "game" is in their favor.
Unfortunately there is no consensus among the shipping companies on how to protect the vessels. Navy of the U.S, France, etc. can't protect individual ships on the constant basis. As long as the criminals don't have a submarine fleet, protected convoys would be an easier solution. The optimal would be an armed on board security personnel, but this will take a global proportion mind shift.
One can only hope the common sense will prevail.
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Well, they have at least to say something. I am afraid they are crazy enough to try again. The upside in this "game" is in their favor.
Unfortunately there is no consensus among the shipping companies on how to protect the vessels. Navy of the U.S, France, etc. can't protect individual ships on the constant basis. As long as the criminals don't have a submarine fleet, protected convoys would be an easier solution. The optimal would be an armed on board security personnel, but this will take a global proportion mind shift.
One can only hope the common sense will prevail.
actually, with how large these ships are and how they are designed, its extremly hard to keep people from boarding a ship with out fixed weaponry. It would take several dozen people to defend a ship. The only real way to defend yourself is to get them before they board you. Thats why you would need to have mounted guns to prevent them from getting close.
Hiting target swith a shoulder fired weapon at best a crap shoot. even with mounted guns its not easy.
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WARNING: I'm Brainstorming, and this is intended to bring discussion! Translation: Don't call me nasty names unless you have a better idea.
Businesses world wide have security of some level, and they pay for it. Some have "in house" security, and some contract for it. Our marine based military is the Coast Guard and the Navy. How about if the Coast Guard would have trained security squads that would be based on every U.S. Flagged navigating the open seas or any vessel that needs security (meaning in our waters).
The ship owners would pay for this service. However, the use of U.S. Military could get around countries that would try and deny arms in their ports. This is our military on U.S. Flagged ships providing professional security.
Someone like deepwater could give us some idea of how many it would take. But I would think that it shouldn't take more than six per vessel, and maybe as low as four.
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the prob with that is most countrys in the world do not allow weapons to come into thier ports( we are one of those).
If you were to use the Coasties or the navy. your now letting armed forign miltary personal into your ports on non miltary vessels. No country is going to let that happen.
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the prob with that is most countrys in the world do not allow weapons to come into thier ports( we are one of those).
If you were to use the Coasties or the navy. your now letting armed forign miltary personal into your ports on non miltary vessels. No country is going to let that happen.
That's a worry for our State Department ... Lemon Kisser Clinton and her clan ... "Guarantee the safety of our vessels and we won't bring military on board."
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That's a worry for our State Department ... Lemon Kisser Clinton and her clan ... "Guarantee the safety of our vessels and we won't bring military on board."
Exactly!!
btw, I thought you might have changed your sstatement at the bottom to something like "may my dog not puke up a recently-devoured rabbit all over the man she thinks I am." ;D
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That's a worry for our State Department ... Lemon Kisser Clinton and her clan ... "Guarantee the safety of our vessels and we won't bring military on board."
so are you willing to volunteer for the duty? knowing that at the very least you are gojng to spend time in prison, maybe decades to life or even exucted?
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so are you willing to volunteer for the duty? knowing that at the very least you are gojng to spend time in prison, maybe decades to life or even exucted?
TAB is talking out his avatar again. Deepwaters ship is armed and carries military personnel. Your contention is BS.
We don't need to "protect every ship" as some one else mentioned, each ship is only in the worlds danger areas for a relitivly short time. We KNOW where the pirates are, so we use a much smaller number of ships to keep them in port, the concept is called blockade and worked quite well against the German fleet in 2 World wars. If they leave harbor they die. Follow up with a tactic that goes back to the earliest days of naval warfare, the "cutting out expedition" in which landing parties seize or destroy anchored ships and supporting shore installations.
Only stupid people fail to understand that ALL modern problems have a successful solution in history.
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TAB is talking out his avatar again. Deepwaters ship is armed and carries military personnel. Your contention is BS.
We don't need to "protect every ship" as some one else mentioned, each ship is only in the worlds danger areas for a relitivly short time. We KNOW where the pirates are, so we use a much smaller number of ships to keep them in port, the concept is called blockade and worked quite well against the German fleet in 2 World wars. If they leave harbor they die. Follow up with a tactic that goes back to the earliest days of naval warfare, the "cutting out expedition" in which landing parties seize or destroy anchored ships and supporting shore installations.
Only stupid people fail to understand that ALL modern problems have a successful solution in history.
And if they try to run the blockade, just put a nice sized hole in the water, right where they "used to be".
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The Naval firepower supplied by the 5th Fleet based in the Indian ocean is unmatched. We could easily handle everything that is happening in Iraq with only a small contingent of vessels diverted to the Somali operating area. It's a big coastline but as Tom says, block their ports and if you move, you lose!
We just need the resolve to do what is needed to protect OUR vessels, the rest of the world can do the same...
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TAB is talking out his avatar again. Deepwaters ship is armed and carries military personnel. Your contention is BS.
We don't need to "protect every ship" as some one else mentioned, each ship is only in the worlds danger areas for a relitivly short time. We KNOW where the pirates are, so we use a much smaller number of ships to keep them in port, the concept is called blockade and worked quite well against the German fleet in 2 World wars. If they leave harbor they die. Follow up with a tactic that goes back to the earliest days of naval warfare, the "cutting out expedition" in which landing parties seize or destroy anchored ships and supporting shore installations.
Only stupid people fail to understand that ALL modern problems have a successful solution in history.
Spot on Tom. I've been arguing this point on this board and elsewhere for awhile. For a fraction of the cost of a destroyer and guided missle frigate, we could put a squad of jar heads on every American flagged vessel and others who were willing to pay, and then extract them by helicopter after they left the danger zone. It seems a lot cheaper,more effective and frankly scarier (to the piates) than what we're doing now. It all boils down to the famous saying "I'd rather have a gun in my hand than a cop on the phone". A classic for a reason.
FQ13
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It's obviously Midol time again, so we'll just take it with a grain of salt ...
The reason many countries don't want arms in their ports is because the men with arms rule the roost! My ship gets attacked, I protect it, kiss my ass!!! You bet I'd do the duty!
Oh ... The reason our Founding Fathers wanted us armed and the reason the elite libs today don't want us armed is the exact same reason. It is called ACCOUNTABILITY!!!
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btw, I thought you might have changed your sstatement at the bottom to something like "may my dog not puke up a recently-devoured rabbit all over the man she thinks I am." ;D
Thanks for that memory :-\ The daughter and her guy were home for the weekend, and I was held accountable for the stains in the floor. Let's just say that I didn't go into great detail, or any detail, during dinner. Belle and I have a new understanding on appropriate manors in the house ... when she gets back in. However, I'm thinking she won't see the family room until mid summer when the bunnies become more elusive.
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Thanks for that memory :-\ The daughter and her guy were home for the weekend, and I was held accountable for the stains in the floor. Let's just say that I didn't go into great detail, or any detail, during dinner. Belle and I have a new understanding on appropriate manors in the house ... when she gets back in. However, I'm thinking she won't see the family room until mid summer when the bunnies become more elusive.
Dog, bunnies, puke....How did I miss that story??
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Spot on Tom. I've been arguing this point on this board and elsewhere for awhile. For a fraction of the cost of a destroyer and guided missle frigate, we could put a squad of jar heads on every American flagged vessel and others who were willing to pay, and then extract them by helicopter after they left the danger zone. It seems a lot cheaper,more effective and frankly scarier (to the piates) than what we're doing now. It all boils down to the famous saying "I'd rather have a gun in my hand than a cop on the phone". A classic for a reason.
FQ13
I'm advocating exactly the opposite of what you seem to think. I'm saying put a couple ships on patrol in these waters and if a suspicious vessel puts to sea, blow it out of the water, then when they are cowering in their ports, THAT is when you put a Company of Marines ashore to wreck and kill everything within a mile of the beach. It will not take to long before they learn that piracy is not a job option.
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Dog, bunnies, puke....How did I miss that story??
It was a PM that only Tom got to enjoy ... until you asked ...
Ok everyone - it is time to either divert your attention or blame TT, because I warned you:
A six year old German Shorthair can out run a rabbit regardless of weather or ground conditions, and bunny on the hoof is considered an appetizer on our yard. However, when I came home from work one evening and saw the front legs and head of a warm bunny at the end of the sidewalk I didn't listen to the inner voice. I let Belle in, and we assumed the position on the couch. Everything was fine for the first hour or so, but then she got uncomfortable. You would think that I would be smart enough that when she gets on and off the couch, wants out and comes right back in but is still restless, that I would just put her out for a while ... wouldn't you? But NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, I let her back up on the couch, and within minutes she was standing all hunched up and before I could say OH ... there was a pile of half digested bunny in front of my recliner! Ten feet later it was another pile in the middle of the hallway. A half our later, a shovel full of bunny guts in the burn barrel, lots of scrubbing, and a half bottle of Fabreeze in use, and I found myself sitting in a bag chair in the garage comforting a puppy that not only didn't feel real good (but much better than she did an hour prior) but couldn't understand why we couldn't share the couch.
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I'm advocating exactly the opposite of what you seem to think. I'm saying put a couple ships on patrol in these waters and if a suspicious vessel puts to sea, blow it out of the water, then when they are cowering in their ports, THAT is when you put a Company of Marines ashore to wreck and kill everything within a mile of the beach. It will not take to long before they learn that piracy is not a job option.
The trouble with that Tom, is that a "suscpicous vessel" is every fishing boat with 4 guys on board. These folks are fishermen and make their living fron the sea. If we don't let them leave port they, and their families starve. This drives them into the hands of the jihadis and we lose strategically, even if we win tactically (cf Vietnam) because there is lot more going on in Somalia than pirates (I will give a history in a later post if you want). Better to make it clear that attackng a US vessel is a quick way to die. As far as attacking their bases, I'm on board, but we need to understand its going to ugly, bloody, and that lots of innocents and hostages will die. It would be in our strategic (not moral, because we're right) interest to get the international community (defined as those who have ships and men to contribute) behind us before diving into the sewer. I think we have to make that dive, but as a stop gap measure putting the USMC on board our ships seems like a good option.
FQ13
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I'm advocating exactly the opposite of what you seem to think. I'm saying put a couple ships on patrol in these waters and if a suspicious vessel puts to sea, blow it out of the water, then when they are cowering in their ports, THAT is when you put a Company of Marines ashore to wreck and kill everything within a mile of the beach. It will not take to long before they learn that piracy is not a job option.
Either the populace who can make a difference get's the lawlessness under control or they all suffer for it. Not unlike the suffering we are about to receive at the hands of the idiots who voted for BHO.
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It was a PM that only Tom got to enjoy ... until you asked ...
Ok everyone - it is time to either divert your attention or blame TT, because I warned you:
A six year old German Shorthair can out run a rabbit regardless of weather or ground conditions, and bunny on the hoof is considered an appetizer on our yard. However, when I came home from work one evening and saw the front legs and head of a warm bunny at the end of the sidewalk I didn't listen to the inner voice. I let Belle in, and we assumed the position on the couch. Everything was fine for the first hour or so, but then she got uncomfortable. You would think that I would be smart enough that when she gets on and off the couch, wants out and comes right back in but is still restless, that I would just put her out for a while ... wouldn't you? But NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, I let her back up on the couch, and within minutes she was standing all hunched up and before I could say OH ... there was a pile of half digested bunny in front of my recliner! Ten feet later it was another pile in the middle of the hallway. A half our later, a shovel full of bunny guts in the burn barrel, lots of scrubbing, and a half bottle of Fabreeze in use, and I found myself sitting in a bag chair in the garage comforting a puppy that not only didn't feel real good (but much better than she did an hour prior) but couldn't understand why we couldn't share the couch.
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ROTFLMBO!
Poor puppy! Needed some pepto! ;)
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It was a PM that only Tom got to enjoy ... until you asked ...
Ok everyone - it is time to either divert your attention or blame TT, because I warned you:
A six year old German Shorthair can out run a rabbit regardless of weather or ground conditions, and bunny on the hoof is considered an appetizer on our yard. However, when I came home from work one evening and saw the front legs and head of a warm bunny at the end of the sidewalk I didn't listen to the inner voice. I let Belle in, and we assumed the position on the couch. Everything was fine for the first hour or so, but then she got uncomfortable. You would think that I would be smart enough that when she gets on and off the couch, wants out and comes right back in but is still restless, that I would just put her out for a while ... wouldn't you? But NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, I let her back up on the couch, and within minutes she was standing all hunched up and before I could say OH ... there was a pile of half digested bunny in front of my recliner! Ten feet later it was another pile in the middle of the hallway. A half our later, a shovel full of bunny guts in the burn barrel, lots of scrubbing, and a half bottle of Fabreeze in use, and I found myself sitting in a bag chair in the garage comforting a puppy that not only didn't feel real good (but much better than she did an hour prior) but couldn't understand why we couldn't share the couch.
Happy Easter! ;D
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It was a PM that only Tom got to enjoy ... until you asked ...
Ok everyone - it is time to either divert your attention or blame TT, because I warned you:
A six year old German Shorthair can out run a rabbit regardless of weather or ground conditions, and bunny on the hoof is considered an appetizer on our yard. However, when I came home from work one evening and saw the front legs and head of a warm bunny at the end of the sidewalk I didn't listen to the inner voice. I let Belle in, and we assumed the position on the couch. Everything was fine for the first hour or so, but then she got uncomfortable. You would think that I would be smart enough that when she gets on and off the couch, wants out and comes right back in but is still restless, that I would just put her out for a while ... wouldn't you? But NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, I let her back up on the couch, and within minutes she was standing all hunched up and before I could say OH ... there was a pile of half digested bunny in front of my recliner! Ten feet later it was another pile in the middle of the hallway. A half our later, a shovel full of bunny guts in the burn barrel, lots of scrubbing, and a half bottle of Fabreeze in use, and I found myself sitting in a bag chair in the garage comforting a puppy that not only didn't feel real good (but much better than she did an hour prior) but couldn't understand why we couldn't share the couch.
Tell me that gut pile didn't include pink eyeballs.... :o
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The trouble with that Tom, is that a "suscpicous vessel" is every fishing boat with 4 guys on board. These folks are fishermen and make their living fron the sea. 1 If we don't let them leave port they, and their families starve. This drives them into the hands of the jihadis and we lose strategically, even if we win tactically (cf Vietnam) 2because there is lot more going on in Somalia than pirates 3 (I will give a history in a later post if you want). Better to make it clear that attackng a US vessel is a quick way to die. As far as attacking their bases, I'm on board, but we need to understand its going to ugly, bloody, and that lots of innocents and hostages will die 4 . It would be in our strategic (not moral, because we're right) interest to get the international community 5 (defined as those who have ships and men to contribute) behind us before diving into the sewer. I think we have to make that dive, but as a stop gap measure putting the USMC on board our ships seems like a good option. 6
FQ13
1) Wrong, fishing is hard work, if they were fishing they would not have time for piracy. secondly none of the photo's of pirate vessels has shown any nets or other fishing gear.
2) Don't get me started on that one I can go on for a while. ;D
3) Another glowing example of the political skills of indigenous people who saw their greatest glory since biblical times as a colony of Italy, typified by clan warfare and famine.
4) that was one of the arguments used about the Barbary Pirates in Jefferson's time. It was BS then and it's BS now, the fact is that alot MORE innocent people will die if we do not kill the guilty, and the ones in boats 30 miles off shore are not the ones giving the orders any more the the "Corsairs" in the "Chebecks" were 210 years ago. The people on shore are not innocent as this is the prime industry , the pirates could not function without the support facilities provided by shore bases. To supply a historical example, after the British Navy and an earth quake flattened Port Royal (a notorious Pirate hang out in the Caribbean) the days of attacks on the Spanish Main were pretty much over.
5) Another flawed idea from Jefferson's time. Considering that there has been no industry in Somali for about 30 years , where pray tell are they getting weapons, ammunition, fuel, communications gear ? Where are they disposing of their loot ? In your precious "International community is where. Massive destruction in Somalia sends a message to any surviving pirates, but it sends a far more important message to countries like Syria, Saudi Arabia, Iran, North Korea and Russia.
6) It would simply cause them to change their tactics, as long as we allow them base areas it will simply be a battle of methods and counters that will never end. Wipe out the base areas and the problem is not capable of surviving.
You know an interesting overlooked detail of TR's gun boat diplomacy was that countries were a lot nicer and FAR more willing to work out a REASONABLE agreement when we had a Fleet conducting a "Good will" tour of their waters.
Your arguments on this subject illustrate why Santayana specified LEARN history, not just read it.
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Hey, let's be kind to M58. As a pointer guy myself I am totally in his corner. Besides here in South Florida the problem isn't rabbitts, it is buffo toads. These are an exotic species (much like the iguanas) that are the size of a grapefruit. The problem is that they excrete a neurotoxin, in the form of a whie frothy foam, from the back of their neck when stressed. This foam is also a hallucinagin. Some of my classmates in high school got busted (and no I'm not making this up) for bringing the things to school for folks to lick and get high. (Now I'm no pure virgin but I've never wanted to get stoned badly enough to lick a toad. You might have a dependency problem when.....) Anyway, dogs love them, and the only way to know you have a problem is if the beast starts acting goofy (or just being a pointer), or if it has sticky saliva. At which point the remedy is to pretty much shove a garden hose down it mouth to wash out the poison. This results in an unhappy puppy, vomited frog guts, and everyone getting wet and muddy. I feel your pain M58.
FQ13