The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Defense and Tactics => Topic started by: Ed Philips on April 13, 2009, 06:31:28 PM
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According to various articles and advertisements, every brand of ammo is the "best". What's the real story?
How do JHPs from Hornady, Speer, Corbon, etc. compare as to reliability in different handguns, accuracy, stopping power, (over)penetration, and recoil? How do special-purpose defense rounds (e.g. MagSafe, Glaser, DRT) compare to the JHPs?
On the side of that question, how relevant will practicing with low-cost 125gr (for example) ammo at the range be for firing an expensive 60gr (again, for example) low-recoil pre-frag in a defensive situation?
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It seems to me that if you can stay on target with FMJ, or other less expensive "practice ammo", especially if it recoils harder then you will be more likely to hit and recover for another hit with lower recoiling , or better quality ammo.
Just like shooting .22's is a good way to practice for other calibers, the point is the fundamentals and they are not caliber specific nor do they change with the quality or type of ammo.
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After researching the subject and trying many different brands and loads, I have settled on the following carry rounds:
45ACP: CorBon 230 gr. +P or CorBon 185 gr. DPX
.38: Speer Gold Dot 135 gr. +P Short Barrel
.380: Federal Hydra-Shok 90 gr.
The Federal HST round looks to be a great option as well but I have yet to try it. Remember, you need to make sure the round you select works well for you and your gun which may take a couple of hundred rounds or so to decide. The above choices work well for me.
With respect to practice, I typically shoot Winchester White Box, Blazer Brass or Federal American Eagle as it tends to be the least expensive decent ammo available with good deals at WalMart or Ammoman. I always finish up however, with a cylinder or two of my carry load when practicing with my revolvers or a couple of magazines of the same with my autos. That's enough so that you are comfortable with your carry ammo and know how it will shoot.
Also, I think you will find the following very enjoyable and informative..........
http://proarms.podbean.com/category/ammunition/
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Remember, you need to make sure the round you select works well for you and your gun
That is it in a nutshell.
There are LOTS of good rounds out there today (AMAZING how much better they are than a few years ago), and the best for you and your needs may be different than mine even if we have the same model gun.
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A bullet that will not plug such as Federals Expanding full metal jacket, and I believe there is another on the market now . A bonded bullet so it will retain full weight.
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The round that hits em square in the head.
Dont care if its ball ammo, wad cutter, hollow point, or armor piercing / exploding. If it goes cleanly through their skull its all good.
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A bullet that will not plug such as Federals Expanding full metal jacket, and I believe there is another on the market now . A bonded bullet so it will retain full weight.
The two others that I know of are CorBon PowerBall and Hornady Critical Defense. Both use a polymer insert within the hollowpoint itself to prevent heavy clothing from clogging the bullet tip which, in turn, prevents optimum bullet expansion. It's a good round for winter carry in cold climate areas where heavy coats are worn. Then again a 45 ball round would penetrate just as well albeit with no expansion and increased possibility of over penetration. The Federal Expanding full metal jacket looks like a winner certainly.
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Too many variables to give a blanket answer. It seem that most DA is good but, nothing is 100%.
JMHO
Richard
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Read an article once in Guns and Ammo by Massad Ayoob and he suggested checking with Local LE and see what they carry. I know they aren't always the most informed. I will dig out the article and get a general rundown of it.
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Ballistics are a slightly tricky lot. This is due to the firearms themselves.
A 2" snubbie .357, vs. a 6 or 8" barrel length. etc,....
Here's the skinny:
http://library.med.utah.edu/WebPath/TUTORIAL/GUNS/GUNBLST.html
The term ballistics refers to the science of the travel of a projectile in flight. The flight path of a bullet includes: travel down the barrel, path through the air, and path through a target. The wounding potential of projectiles is a complex matter. (Fackler, 1996)
Internal, or initial ballistics (within the gun)
Bullets fired from a rifle will have more energy than similar bullets fired from a handgun. More powder can also be used in rifle cartridges because the bullet chambers can be designed to withstand greater pressures (70,000 psi vs. 40,000 psi for handgun chamber). It is difficult in practice to measure the forces within a gun barrel, but the one easily measured parameter is the velocity with which the bullet exits the barrel (muzzle velocity) and this is what will be used in examples below.
The controlled expansion of burning gunpowder generates pressure (force/area). The area here is the base of the bullet (equivalent to diameter of barrel) and is a constant. Therefore, the energy transmitted to the bullet (with a given mass) will depend upon mass times force times the time interval over which the force is applied. The last of these factors is a function of barrel length. Bullet travel through a gun barrel is characterized by increasing acceleration as the expanding gases push on it. Up to a point, the longer the barrel, the greater the acceleration.
As the bullet traverses the barrel of the gun, some minor deformation occurs, called setback deformation. This results from minor (rarely major) imperfections or variations in rifling or tool marks. The effect upon the subsequent flight path of the bullet is usually insignificant. (Jandial et al, 2008)
Bullets produce tissue damage in three ways (Adams, 1982):
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Laceration and crushing - Low velocity bullets, as in handguns, that travel less than 1000 fps do virtually all their damage via crushing.
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Cavitation - Cavitation is significant with projectiles travelling in excess of 1000 fps. A "permanent" cavity is caused by the path of the bullet itself, whereas a "temporary" cavity is formed by continued forward acceleration of the medium (air or tissue) in the wake of the bullet, causing the wound cavity to be stretched outward.
3.
Shock waves - Shock waves compress the medium and travel ahead of the bullet, as well as to the sides, but these waves last only a few microseconds and do not cause profound destruction at low velocity. At high velocity, generated shock waves can reach up to 200 atmospheres of pressure. (DiMaio and Zumwalt, 1977) However, bone fracture from cavitation is an extremely rare event. (Fackler, 1996)
The mathematics of wound ballistics, in reference to yaw of unstable projectiles, has been described. The model works well for non-deformable bullets. (Peters et al, 1996)(Peters and Sebourn, 1996)
Or a .45 (note the barrel length used.)
http://www.handloads.com/misc/stoppingpower.asp?Caliber=18&Weight=230
At the link, you can change calibers and bullet weights, all this is from Ed Sanow's book Stopping Power.
It's not gospel, but is brain food.
Here's another.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_2_47/ai_68704858/
Ballistic Realities: Barrel Length & Bullet Penetration
Hey,... you asked a question. 8)
Buy the good stuff for carry or HD, get the decent stuff for range time, shoot "some" of your carry ammo to compare and check reliability.
Key is shot placement and practice. Getting 13.8" penetration from a Federal JHP, vs. 14.1" from a Speer Gold-Dot, vs 12.9" from Cor-Bon, won't matter if the accuracy is there.
Sorry for the long post.
Here's a question:
"If a bullet expands and penetrates 6" and another bullet does not expand, but penetrates 12", which one does more damage?"
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Read an article once in Guns and Ammo by Massad Ayoob and he suggested checking with Local LE and see what they carry. I know they aren't always the most informed. I will dig out the article and get a general rundown of it.
That was more for an "after the shot" situation--made it easier for you defense lawyer than if you were shooting Gut-Ripper 3000's or some such "evil" sounding name.
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Yeah that is the one. I guess our Local LE uses Speer Gold Dot and it is ranked pretty highly on most Defense charts.
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12 GA. "Exploder":
A stabilized, finned slug with a deep hollow core for loading combustible materials. The exploder round has curved finns in the rear of the slug for stability. Recent D.O.T. regulations require that the "Exploder" hollow cavity be shipped unloaded. This allows you to load the cavity yourself, safely with no tools required. Use our formula or yours. Complete instructions included. Can’t be shipped to California, Florida addresses. 2.75 round (as seen on "Future weapons", yes, it blows up on impact!)
http://www.deltaforce.com/catalog/12gaugeammo.html
LET THE BODIES HIT THE FLOOR! LET THE BODIES HIT THE FLOOR! LET THE BODIES HIT THE UUUUAAAAARRRRRRGGGGA!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sO_QntXc-c4
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12 GA. Macho Gaucho: AKA "Strung Buck"
The device made famous by the Argentine Cowboy is called the "bolo". This device consisted of two heavy balls connected by a string and was thrown at and wrapped around an animals legs causing it to trip. Now this idea has been adapted for the 21st century in the form of a 12 Gauge shotgun round. This round consists of two lead slugs connected by a steel wire that whirls and twirls during flight devastating your target. Try your hand at being a 21st century cowboy today. 2 3/4" round.
NEVER consider a handgun as a first option for self defense... As a last option... OK.
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Here's a question:
"If a bullet expands and penetrates 6" and another bullet does not expand, but penetrates 12", which one does more damage?"
No simple answer to that one. Depends on shot placement, most of all, and all the variables involved with such. IMHO.
Divide the torso into four sections. Two upper and two lower. Shoot a 400 pound man in the lower left quadrant of the torso and you would not expect the same damage to vitals as in any of the other three. Either might stop him, but either might not. But the liver is on the right and would stand a better chance of massive bleed out with the expanding round.
I posted months ago about a guy I used to work with getting shot in the pectoral muscle with a wadcutter from a snubby .38.
He was a big, somewhat muscular fellow, and the slug stopped a couple of inches into the muscle itself. He then took the gun away from the shooter and beat hell out of him with it. Better load might have ended differently, OR different shot placement with same load might have ended differently also.
Man, too many variables in life. ;)
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The best performance I have seen out of any of my firearms was from Hornady or Cor-Bon. I try to stick with Remington or Winchester on the range but will finish up with Hornady TAP. Loved the Black Talons but good luck on finding them.
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I still have a few boxes of Black Talons but don't use them for SD. I'm afraid of the prosecuter calling them cop-killer bullets. I'm using Cor-Bon Pow'RBalls right now but I've used a lot of other loads too. I like Gold Dots about as well as any.
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Aren't the Winchester SXT's or Ranger's basically the same as Black Talons, just without the 'black'?
I use Cor-Bon myself.
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Aren't the Winchester SXT's or Ranger's basically the same as Black Talons, just without the 'black'?
I use Cor-Bon myself.
SXTs are Black Talons without the black or the talons.
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SXTs are Black Talons without the black or the talons.
Aren't they supposed to perform the same?
I think you posted on this before, but my memory faded.
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SXT = Same eXact Thing
SXTs are Black Talons without the black or the talons.
That's what I heard
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I've said this on some other threads, but right now I'm using Speer Gold Dots in my house gun and carry gun. In the gun I'm going to be using for armed security work, I'll still be using Speer Gold Dots, but loaded by DoubleTap Ammo. I really like the company as their products seem to deliver higher performance at a great price.
The trouble with DoubleTap is two fold. They diffinetly load the ammo to develop higher velocity than Speer does for theorically better performance. They mention that they've tested the performance and give some data (depending on the load), but don't enable you to look at their research. It's up to the user to test the ammo for it's capabilities, which I don't have the ability to do since I don't have a range that would let me test terminal performance.
The other issue is that they've changed the tittles of the loadings. Instead of mentioning that it's loaded with a Gold Dot, they describe it as "bonded defense." This change is not a huge deal, but it concerns me when they stop using the Gold Dot for a generic tittle when it's the same loading.
I'm starting to consider other rounds like Hornady TAP, Winchester PDX1, and Glaser Pow'RBall.
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Find one you can aford to shoot, make sure it works in your gun, buy lots of it.
Every time I take my SD gun to the range, it gets atleast a mag full of that ammo thru it. Some times its the 1st, sometimes the last.
also, doget get cuaght up in the +P bang wagon. for many people +P is too much for them. I'd rather get 2 shots on some one, then 1 +P