The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Handguns => Topic started by: PoorSSJ on April 14, 2009, 02:48:22 PM
-
I'm new to action pistol shooting and have a question: I'm wondering which way the bullets should face when in a magazine holder at 3 o'clock on my weak side. I had been practicing reloading with the bullets facing towards the rear in my pouches and that seems the practical way to do it but it's come to my attention that the preferable way is with the bullets facing forward. I'm wondering what the pro's and con's are, and what is recommended to be best. It seems to me ( a newbie ) that if they're facing rearward reloading would not involve turning the magazine around, and therefore be preferable. Any suggestions?
Thanks
-
I always just thought it was personal preference. Practice both and do what suits YOU best.
For the record, I've always carried my mags with the cartridges facing rearward (the way you describe) because when I grasp them and bring them forward to load, then they are indexed properly for my reload.
***edit for clarification***
I do not compete in action style shooting. My comments were directed towards CCW, as to how I carry spare mags.
And damn, I never knew I'd been wrong for so many years. For some reason, even carrying them facing rearward, my index finger ends up on the front of the lip too......go figure.
8)
-
Bullets forward in mag holder.
When you grasp the magazine with your weak hand your index finger should be laying straight along
the front of the magazine.
Pull the magazine and "point" the magazine (your finger acting as the guide) into the gun.
Make sure you get the tip of your finger out of the way in time (if you don't you will remember the next time).
Use the heel of your hand to seat the mag.
That's about the best explanation I can give.
-
1911junkie has explained it well. I have been competing for over 30 years and have shot with some of the best and that is, far and away the prefered method. Even if you compete with the mag at your belly button the only change might be to get a mag pouch that you can turn the mag 90 degrees CCW while still using the nose picken finger to guide it in the mag well.
FWIW
Richard
-
Here ya go ;D
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=fast+reloading&hl=en&emb=0&aq=0&oq=fast+reload#
-
Damn, don't blink!
-
Here ya go ;D
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=fast+reloading&hl=en&emb=0&aq=0&oq=fast+reload#
Damn, don't blink!
Yes...Travis Tomasie does know how to run a gun, doesn't he? WOW.
-
My mag holders have are tooled leather that only allow the mag inserted with the bullet forward. Never really thought about it till now. It just seems natural.
My reloading looks more like Travis in ultra slow motion after a few valium and four or five shots of Glenlivet! ;D
I'd be dead before his first mag hit the floor...maybe I need some practice myself.
-
Bullets forward in mag holder.
When you grasp the magazine with your weak hand your index finger should be laying straight along
the front of the magazine.
Pull the magazine and "point" the magazine (your finger acting as the guide) into the gun.
Make sure you get the tip of your finger out of the way in time (if you don't you will remember the next time).
Use the heel of your hand to seat the mag.
That's about the best explanation I can give.
+1 You can go online and check with all the best shooters this is the way to go.
-
In addition to what 1911 said, I picked up from my course with Rob Pincus was when you have seated the magazine, roll palm of your weak hand up the side of the gun and grasp the slide at the rear of the slide and pull toward you in one aggressive motion. And do all of this without looking at the gun. Start real slow to keep your mechanics smooth and the speed should come.
-
It doesn't matter very much.
*****
That said, the old school tradition, which was established for no apparent reason other than tradition, is to point your bullets forward. It is generally the preferred method simply because that's how all the competitors do it... and so did the guys they copied... and so did the guys they copied. There is not an objective reason for the preference. If someone tells you otherwise, please let me know the reason cited.... This is a perfect example of the importance of the "why?" question and the irrelevance of the "I can do it faster this way" answer..... "***** can do it fast that way" is even less important. Here's our "why?" explanation:
The fact is that carrying them forward is bio-mechanically less efficient than carrying them with the bullets backwards. You an search YouTube for a video clip with an explanation of this concept from the Combat Focus Shooting program, it includes a demo of the two versions compared to one another in terms of efficiency. If you look at how the hand/arm work, the bullets pointed backwards method is more intuitive and efficient. It is consistent with the way you would reach into your pocket and pull something out. It also allows your hand and the magazine to stay against your body and the mag is brought up to the gun in a high-compressed ready, which enhances your ability to reload without looking at the gun and in confined spaces.
Given a Blank Slate student, we always recommend bullets backwards. If, however, someone is an experienced shooter with hundreds or thousands of reps reloading with their bullets forward, we do not recommend that they change. I think that the time/effort/energy involved in changed the technique outweighs the advantage of carrying in the more efficient way. I think this came up in the class that FA was in last week, as some students were experienced with the "bullets forward" style. This is one of those key examples of allowing common sense to prevail over an instructors own personal preference and understand the difference between "perfection" and "practically acceptable".
As a side note, most people over-think the mechanics of a reload... as some of you have noted above, some things "just feel right" or "just work"... that is INTUITIVE stuff and that is usually the stuff that will work best for you. Indexing the bullet, for example, is something that you do not need to do if you carry your mags consistently in one direction al the time and which actually over-complicates the process. None of you need to do such a thing to bring your two hands together at any point around your body.... inserting the new mag is simply that action while you hands are holding the gun and the mag. Intuitive skill development will trump contrived mechanics every time given equal time and effort in training.
Again, the caveat to all this is that "I can do it THIS way quickly" means nothing if you have only practiced one way. We are looking for an objective bio-mechanical answer, not dogma or personal experience based on repetitive practice with a less efficient method. As Tony Blauer often says, "be careful what you practice, you may get really good at the wrong thing."
-RJP
PS- If you really don't like my explanation based solely on your preference or what you've seen other people do, you should go back to the first sentence of my post and let it go. ;)
-
Do you have a link? The way I do it is second nature now. Finger along the front of the mag helps keep
the top of the mag in line with the gun so it goes in straight. Are you wrapping your entire hand around
the mag?
I need a visual or better explanation. Just trying to expand my mind (today's a better day).
-
I don't have one immediately... there is a user "Stella"-something that posted a bunch of rips from CFS training DVDs at Youtube...I know that there was a teaching demo of the concept in her collection at one point... searching "combat focus shooting" at youtube will certainly yield some examples. The fact is that the instructions we give to new shooters are:
"reach down with your weak hand and grab you spare magazine, pull it out of carrier, follow your body up to pistol (already in the high compressed ready), insert it firmly, rotate your hand around without loosing contact with the magazine, reach up and over, grab the slide behind the ejection port, pull back and release."
We teach that from reload #1 the student doesn't look at the gun or mag. This fights against establishing wasteful extra steps, worrying about the position of fingers, over thinking the process and developing a dependency on visual reference (which will be hampered by tunnel vision and tachyspsychia as well as going against natural behavior and visual priorities during a fight).
-RJP
-
Thanks.
Seems like more gross motor skills so less to screw up.
-
Rob,
Not being an idpa or ipsic (sp?) shooter myselfl let me ask a dumb question. Are the mags in the carrier on your waist pointed up (bullets at the top) or pointed down? If down I can easily see how bullet to the rear would work. Natural hand movement.
-
I'm not going to disagree with many of the points Rob makes, but in USPSA shooting you have a perfect world. You have your mags all on a belt and in holders that are all adjusted for ergonomics. I actually miss wearing my belt after a match, because the way things are set up the mag pouches are in the perfect position for resting my hands.
For me ... my mags are in the pouches at an angle that keeps my hand, wrist and arm in straight alignment as I grasp the mag; the bullets are bullets are up (forward as you work around the world); as I start the reload I release the grip with my left hand and start for a mag; at the same time I hit the mag release and twist the gun an eighth of a turn to the right; by this time I am raising the mag with my left index finger on the top bullet; I make a one eighth to quarter twist to the left (like loosening a bottle cap); as my finger makes contact with the mag well base; I roll my finger back and seat the mag with the pad of my hand.
I have been successful with pointing the cartridges several directions (forward, back or 90 degrees away from my body), but I just can't get comfortable or smooth if I can't put my index finger tip on the bullet tip (I love JHP, because regardless of conditions I can feel that rough edge with my finger).
Practice is the key. If you don't practice reloads a lot you will never know where the comfort level is for how to place your mags. For me it is at the point of my pelvis - in front of this the bullets are forward, and behind they are back. This leads to perfect grasping because of the way my hand drops. Old elbows and shoulders will do more to remind you of this if you forget.
Without mag pouches I rely completely on feel. In this case I must get my index finger on the bullet tip for reference. If I can't feel the bullet, I can't get the reload done without looking, and looking wastes time.
-
Rob,
Not being an idpa or ipsic (sp?) shooter myselfl let me ask a dumb question. Are the mags in the carrier on your waist pointed up (bullets at the top) or pointed down? If down I can easily see how bullet to the rear would work. Natural hand movement.
Haz,
On my open and limited rig my magazines lay anywhere from a 15 degree to 45 degree angle from parallel to the ground with the bullets pointing up (forward as you twist around). My first magazine is centered on my naval, and I try not to go beyond the side seam of my pants.
With my production and single stack (also limited 10) the magazines are vertical (90 to the ground) and because of where the pouches are placed by rule I do the some forward and some backward. This is a technique that requires muscle memory. For me, and some others, it is just plain natural. But, for some people everything must be the same.
NOTE: I do not shoot IDPA - Only USPSA. Because of this, the only time I need to deal with a pocket is for a spare I don't plan on using (like a spare tire just in case), and the only time I deal with retention is if there is a stage where I do a reload on the move as a time saver and want to keep a partial magazine just in case I need a couple extra later.
-
Haz,
On my open and limited rig my magazines lay anywhere from a 15 degree to 45 degree angle from parallel to the ground with the bullets pointing up (forward as you twist around). My first magazine is centered on my naval, and I try not to go beyond the side seam of my pants.
With my production and single stack (also limited 10) the magazines are vertical (90 to the ground) and because of where the pouches are placed by rule I do the some forward and some backward. This is a technique that requires muscle memory. For me, and some others, it is just plain natural. But, for some people everything must be the same.
HMM, that whole thing seems odd to me (remember I have NEVER done it). Just sittin here going through the motions it seems I would want my mags on my belt 'upside down' and bullets to the rear.
Then again, I do lots o' things strange. ;)
-
HMM, that whole thing seems odd to me (remember I have NEVER done it). Just sittin here going through the motions it seems I would want my mags on my belt 'upside down' and bullets to the rear.
Then again, I do lots o' things strange. ;)
Like Rob said ... There's more than one way to skin a cat ... Ooooops ... reload you gun.
-
O.K. I tried. There seems to be segments missing and none of the ones I watched explained the reload
but I did see it a few times. The best way I can explain is to start backwards. If you are taking the mag
out of the gun and holding it ( think ballpoint pen ala Bob Dole), stick it in your pocket. Natural movement
will put it bullets down facing rear. Reverse the process to load. No thinking, just doing (not that I'm going
to change).
I will admit I've never watched any of Robs stuff before. We do a lot of similar drills just to mix things up.
I hate to say I think I actually like the guy after watching him. :-[ I can see where his classes could be
beneficial. I subscribe to the old adage "those that can, do, those that can't, teach". Rob might be
one of the few exceptions.
More personable in video than in type. ;)
But seriously, do you have a clone or what?
-
I hate to say I think I actually like the guy after watching him..
I knew that would happen, so I let you wade through the videos :). Like I always tell my instructor staff: Trust the material, the information is what matters, not the messenger.
While it is sometimes nice to have the videos up there for quick reference, I didn't want the entire DVD on Youtube.
I am well aware that my direct, blunt, passionate, insistent, objective-in-spite-of-dogma approach doesn't always come across well in text only. People do seem to "get" what I am saying more with podcasts, even more with videos and, best, when they attend a course.
****
Haz,
Bullets down is the only practical option.... bullets up will never be as efficient regardless of which direction (forward or back). Some carry magazines horizontally (this makes it easier to pull mags out when you are crouching, etc), in which case the bullets may point up or down, respectively, but the base of the magazine should always be at the opening of the mag carriers.
Also, someone mentioned that their mag carriers were made to accept the bullets pointing in one direction or another (because of the angle at the bottom)... while this is true, you can always find flat bottomed carriers that are "neutral" OR you can buy left-hand versions if you want the angle to go in the opposite direction.
-RJP
-
Also, someone mentioned that their mag carriers were made to accept the bullets pointing in one direction or another (because of the angle at the bottom)... while this is true, you can always find flat bottomed carriers that are "neutral" OR you can buy left-hand versions if you want the angle to go in the opposite direction.
That was me and after looking again, since I'm slow as molasses anyway, it won't be hard to rethink this information and go with what is more ergonomic for myself personally. I dearly need to practice more often and I think I can put them in either direction and let the mag re-form the slight cant that's tooled into them. They retain the mag in either direction and as you mentioned, they're not something that can't be replaced.
T
-
Thanks a lot for all your information guys. It seems natural to me to have them facing backwards on my weak side. Can anyone give any reason that bullets facing forward is the better way? I think I will practice with mine facing rearward unless I can think of a good reason to do it the other way. Lining the index finger on the front of the mag just to help align it doesn't really seem practical to my way of thinking, it seems like it's just adding extra steps.
Thanks again :)
-
I knew that would happen, so I let you wade through the videos :).
Prick ;) I mean that in a good way. ;D
-
I tryed with the bullets facing backwords and doing a Tac reload is next too inpossiable. With the bullets facing forward you point your index finger at the magwell and the mag follows. Sorry Rob, I just don't get it.
-
Wow, I had to read this thread 3 times to get a grip, now after reading it again and again, loading from the WEAK side, with the weak hand, having the index finger along the pointy end of the bullet makes sense, strong side or weak side, you don't have to twist the wrist, and think backwards, Bruce Gray pointed out that keeping the index finger over the bullet nose would prevent rounds from being stripped from the magazine by a missed chute drive, and although it has merit, I have never done it, and have not seen it done on the line. If right handed all the bullets should point clockwise, if left, then counter clockwise, forward and backward on a belt take on different aspects as you go in a circle.
I still may have not read it right, but I am trying to clarify.
-
You right handed shooters,......
Geez, I have to reverse the order, and apply everything from the other side.
Usually, I have mag with bullets facing to the rear, as I draw the mag, and load the bullets face forward. Insert and go.
Just for fun I practice with snap caps and do it with my weak hand, (righty). We become so dominant hand dependent, I have listened to instructors that make a routine of cycling, reloading, with the weak hand, to at least know what to expect if wounded in your dominant arm, hand, etc,....
Try reloading in the same sequence with your weak hand.
-
Prick ;) I mean that in a good way. ;D
That's the beginning of a friendship.
-
That's the beginning of a friendship.
Now you've done it............I'm gettin all misty. :'(