The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Defense and Tactics => Topic started by: JdePietro on April 20, 2009, 07:15:19 PM
-
Hello my fellow citizens,
I write today in search of answers to questions burning a hole in my insatiable curosity. I care not which is prefered for what method and I do not intend this post to become a war on tactics and gear but rather I would like insightful wisdom on the subject matter.
Carbines are the fashionable item as of the last 30 years give or take and I really don't see this tide turning anytime soon. However there are those of us who enjoy the rifles. M16A3 styled clones, M1A's, HK91 and clones of such, all find themselves in safes along with the fast action carbines. With the slew of carbine owners there are many, many instructors teaching the latest high speed tactics and offering some of the best training this world has seen. My hat is off to some of the talent in the field you guys and gals are amazing.
My questions concern the rifles. I can find a few instructors offering classes and some scattered tactics in books about long range tactical shooting, sniping, scouting, and rifle craft, but where are the instructers for tactical CQC rifle shooting?
Can you shoot a rifle the same way you shoot a carbine?
Have you ever tried squaring off with a rifle? Can you/Should you?
What makes 4 inches on an AR15 such a big deal? Can't it be used in CQC all the same?
Fire away...
-
The only thing I see different about the extra 4 inches (NO COMMENTS M'ETTE (http://www.smileyx.com/smilies/gWCYOJ10.gif) ) is that you need to be more aware in close quarters.
-
What makes 4 inches on an AR15 such a big deal? Can't it be used in CQC all the same?
Hey JdeP,
We say that your weapon doesn't dictate the engagement distance, your environment and your enemy do. 10", 12", 14.5", 16", 20"... if it is designed to be shouldered and held with two hands, we accept it in the "Combat Focus Carbine" course..... I can't speak for other schools, but I would imagine that just about any of them would let you take a 20" inch AR through any course that they have titled as "carbine".
-RJP
-
Carbine length for many years has been 18" so now we are talking about 2" difference, Haz made a good analogy, in close quarters, longer firearms are less friendly, but as Rob pointed out, instructors will take you on, and I think in training, you will find the +'s and -'s of your choice, and the ability to use them even if they are not perfect for the job at hand, any tool is perfect for one situation, but may be applicable to many, understanding the tool and it's capabilities is more important. Just like the cowboy of old who herded longhorn cattle rode 2' wider around the cattle than they would with short horns, learn it and apply it, no harm no foul, it just means different rules of employment. Stand back further from a door, give your self some room on presentation in close quarters, Learn what you have, and implement it, take some courses like Rob's,listen and learn, as you say 4" should not be a deal breaker, just a different mindset to implement it to the best advantage.
-
In any course it's best to work with what you are most likely to be using.
-
The only thing I see different about the extra 4 inches (NO COMMENTS M'ETTE (http://www.smileyx.com/smilies/gWCYOJ10.gif) ) is that you need to be more aware in close quarters.
"EXTRA 4""? ;D
-
Is there a pistol carbine course for say a PC9 or RRA 9mm AR.
-
Is there a pistol carbine course for say a PC9 or RRA 9mm AR.
By this, I assume you mean the waste of money course. I know my language is provacative, but honestly, why (with the exception of .44 mag) would you WANT a pistol caliber carbine? You lose all the advantages of a pistol (light weight, concealabilty, ease of handling etc). You then lose all the advantages of a rifle(higher pressure tolerance, hotter loads, bigger bullets etc.). What you get is a long, awkward, slightly more accurate abortion of a pistol that could (with the same size, weight and profile) be firing a lot more potent round. Unless you're looking for an SMG, or are in the business of clearing rooms CQC for a living, buy a carbine in a rifle caliber! Here endeth the rant.
FQ13
-
http://www.suarezinternational.com/tech.html
-
By this, I assume you mean the waste of money course. I know my language is provacative, but honestly, why (with the exception of .44 mag) would you WANT a pistol caliber carbine? You lose all the advantages of a pistol (light weight, concealabilty, ease of handling etc). You then lose all the advantages of a rifle(higher pressure tolerance, hotter loads, bigger bullets etc.). What you get is a long, awkward, slightly more accurate abortion of a pistol that could (with the same size, weight and profile) be firing a lot more potent round. Unless you're looking for an SMG, or are in the business of clearing rooms CQC for a living, buy a carbine in a rifle caliber! Here endeth the rant.
FQ13
All the power of a pistol with the portability of a rifle. ;D One would assume that carbine tactics could carry over.
-
Let's revisit Tom's advice:
In any course it's best to work with what you are most likely to be using.
It is a great piece of advice. PCC's are used all the time in "Carbine" Courses.... This year, I've had a couple 9mm ARs, several MP5s and even an MP5 style .22 go through "carbine" sessions. Add those to the rifle calibers in AR, AUG, AK and other configurations and you can see why the Carbine courses have more deviation in performance and technique from student to student than any other.
The curriculum of the "carbine" course is designed get students to learn the most efficient way to run their defensive long gun of choice. Different guns require different techniques. The TACTICS are all the same. The Drills are all the same. This is because the Context of Use for those firearms is all going to be the same..... so, as Tom said, sign up for a course and bring what ya got!
-RJP
-
I would think a carbine style .22 would be good to use for the course especially with the cost / availability of ammo right now.
AR with a 22 upper or one of the many AR or AK type dedicated .22s or if you're like me and want to use a lever, why not a lever .22. (are there any .22 levers that load from a side gate?)
-
My son has a Henry lever in .22 and no loading gate :'( . Which I think it should have. The only way to do a fast reload is with those loading tubes I have seen for .22 tube magazines.
-
Thank you one and all.
I don't think any instructor would turn my rifle away, however I have found them to be ill equipt with teaching methods for the longer rifle lengths.
Most of the issue I come accross is stance and forearm grip. A lot of what is being taught deviates from military rifle doctrine. Squaring off to the target and placing the rifle more center line to the chest while maintaining a comfortable grip on a rifle is difficult if you have been taught to place your arm as far out on the handguard as possible and blade off.
Sling sellection is another weak point. Many people will tout the perfect Carbine sling but will give little to no thought about a good rifle sling and I find that there is a big difference.
Many here are right in saying that you must learn the limitations of both and the difference that are needed when using either.
Of the few courses I have taken I find that the rifle is simply forgotten and the techniques for carbines are forced into workng for both.
Just my opinion I guess.
-
JdeP,
The Cutting Edge right now is still going to have you square off (for a lot of good reasons), but the current trend is to place your offhand as far out as possible on the carbine... again for a lot of good reasons, managing recoil and controlling lateral motion being the most important. Vertical grip and mag well approaches have proven to be less efficient. I recently started integrating the new style after being exposed to it be the MAgpul guys over the winter. I had seen competition (3 guns types) shooters doing it for awhile, but hadn't really understood the advantages until it was broken down for me.
Keep in mind that just because you were taught to use your rifle one way doesn't mean that it was the best way. The trick is to get your instructors to explain "WHY" they are recommending what they are recommending and try to come to the highest level of understanding, not just to look for instructors who agree with your opinions. If you're not willing to be educated, you are better off going to the range and simply practicing what you already think is best.
-RJP
-
I guess if I didnt care about people around me ie my nieghbors, I would use my dpms 308 for sweeping and clearing. Hold on I forget some of use dont live in the city we live in a shack in the woods. I care where my bullets fly, if I have to use deadly force training would help and not hinder. Sorry to hurt you feelings. :'(
-
The day I stop trying and learning new methods of shooting and training will be the day there ceases to be a vaccuum in my chest. ;) I always learn something from this board, everytime I sign on! There is a really great group of knowledgable people on here that are always willing to help and that will keep me coming back for a while.
I started the thread in search of the answers. I can't figure out on my own how to grip the rifle while squaring off and putting the butt more center line to my axis. I agree that it would seem that you would have way more control of rearward recoil but I just can't figure out how to make it work without placing my support hand closer to the action thus loosing some stability at the muzzle. ???
I asked a local instructor, however he deals primarily with pistols, shotguns and carbines, and has not tried the same techniques out on a rifle. He seemed receptive but unsure of the end result and really suggested that I purchase a carbine for that sort of work. I would like my primary focus for training to be on a rifle length M1A. Of all the rifles it is by far my favorite and although it would not be my first choice for CQC it will be my primary rifle for competition and bug out emergencies for many personal reasons. I think many people associate the rifle with slow, long range shooting and give little thought to its tactical use in other roles. I would love to take a class that says different, that takes what most people consider absolete and prove that and old dog can be taught new tricks. Clint Smith and Jerry Miciulek are very inspirational people that can take revolvers and double barrel shotguns and prove that they can be used just as well as the new stuff.
But you know I could be totally wrong and just am looking at things with blurred vision. I just found out (today) that there is and I.C.E training facility in Erie Pa. If I ever save up enough money for the trip out there I would love to take a tactical carbine/rifle class with my M1A.
-
Randy Smith is my Regional Rep in PA. He is a very experienced instructor, mostly in law enforcement circles. We have been talking about doing a carbine course in his area this year... maybe we can get you into it!
-RJP
-
With my rifle??? :D :D :D
If I can get the time off and have change I would jump all over that! ;D
-
I'l make sure that we let you know. Everything from a MP7s to 20" .308 semi-autos have going through that class already.....
-RJP
-
Anyone use AK's in these classes, if so what kind of gear should someone take. I would also like to know if ICE has any classes in CA.
-
AKs, ARs, whatever! Really guys... anyone who tells you that the tactics, big picture concepts or drills change dramatically from one type of semi-auto rifle to another is to be questioned as to WHY. Techniques for weapons handling issues DO vary, but all platforms work in the Carbine course....
****
Viking Combatives is my Regional Rep in Cali.. they definitely have Carbine on the schedule this year. The instructors are TOP NOTCH and have more Carbine Experience than I do!
-RJP
-
Thank you i will be i contact with them very soon.
-
As this thread seems to wind down I just want to thank you once again Mr. Pincus.
Some how with all of the training you do, the shows, and the forum chores you find time to personally answer questions from myself and others. I cannot thank you enough for doing so, and I do hope that realize how valuable you are to us.
Thank you.
-Josh
-
Glad to be here... especially if the time investment helps!
Got some .mil work going on this week, expecting long days so I might not be around much.....
-RJP
-
JP,
As stated before, your tactics will be the same, but some of your techniques will need to be modified. The are only two real differences between your M1A and a carbine and that is length and not having a pistolgrip. Length will be a factor because when you switch to a more squared-up stance, the distance you can project your support hand along the stock of the rifle will shorten. It's not that big a deal on a 16" carbine, but a 22" rifle changes things. There is the feeling that you have this long rifle out there with no support, but it's probably more of a comfort issue rather than an actual control issue. Don't worry that your support hand is not fully extended along the stock. Place it where you are comfortable. The bigger issue I find is the lack of a pistol grip. While I can still do a pretty good squared up stance with a straight stock setup, it's definitely different. I feel that my wrist is more along for the ride as opposed to the pistol grip where I can actually get in behind the pistol grip and absorb some of the recoil. It's something that takes me a couple of rounds to adjust to the different feel, but in short order I feel comfortable again.
Don't look at the squared up stance as replacing the traditional bladed offhand shooting position; it should compliment your skill set. For tactical problems that require more precision, continue to use the bladed stance. If a situation requires more speed and close quarters skills, then consider going to a squared up stance.
The more techniques you have in your skill set, the more options you'll have to solve any tactical problem that arises.
With respect to your sling issue, I would consider using a Viking Tactics sling. It's a traditional two point sling that has a quick adjustment feature. You can continue using it in the traditional sling manner or you can quick adjust the tension to give you more freedom of movement or quick adjust the slack and tighten up the sling for precision shooting. I find the quick adjust feature to be indispensable.
USSA-1
-
I am constantly amazed at the wealth of knowledge the professionals that contribute to this forum have!
....The peanut gallery, on the other hand, really has some work to do. ;D
-
I am constantly amazed at the wealth of knowledge the professionals that contribute to this forum have!
....The peanut gallery, on the other hand, really has some work to do. ;D
Hey! I resemble that remark!
;D
-
For those of us who have them, what advise would you give for those with rifles more in line with the Garand. I know it is not in any way an ideal weapon for CQs but. I am always looking for thoughts on how best to employ such a rifle if there was no other available option.
-
USSA-1,
Thank you for your reply! Todays world of training and tactics is a huge buffet of knowledge and if anyone wants to stay ahead of the curve its a great idea to keep your mind open and try, try, try as many different ideas as you can. In my own attempts I have found things that work and don't work. I shoot 3 gun as often as I can, and for me, blading off and placing my hand as far out on the hand guard as possible keeps me on target and fast at the longer distances with my AR. For the closer things I struggle with that technique and so I opted to try the squared off approach it was only then that I realized the weight of the 20" heavy barrel, my sling option, all the other do dads and my build did not translate over so easily.
Rather interestingly enough this does translate over well with the m14. Taking a squared off stance and gripping the rifle close doesn't make for a terrible long range stance but for inside the 50 meter mark its boss.
Right now I am focusing on my sweeties new step. She purchased a M&P9c and would like to take some pistol courses with me. She is a excellent shooter, I am just not a firearms instructor at this point in my life. So my focus has shifted a little but when I can I still would like to take my M14 to a carbine "tactics" class just to see how well the tactics fit a real world battle rifle.
Thank you again for the reply!