The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Handguns => Topic started by: Hotwire22 on April 20, 2009, 10:11:02 PM
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I just got done with a rifle course and a lot of the guys were carrying 1911's as their sidearm. I liked the way they looked and held one and dry fired it and loved the trigger pull as compared to my Glock.
So if I were to but one for the sole purpose of shooting at the range (Glock gets the CCW role) what would you buy and why? Bear in mind I dont want to spend $1500 on one.
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I suggest calling Clark Custom Guns in Louisianna. Tell them your budget and interests and see what they can offer.
-RJP
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I'd say get a older colt. You can pick up some of the older " match/target" guns in great shape for 800-1200 when I say older I mean 70 series and 80 series(which is actually the current production) The stuff from the 60s is 1500+ pre war and your talking 2500+
For new guns, baer beats every one $1500 and less hands down.
now if you want to go the gun simth route, well thats a diffrent ball of wax.
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Which 1911 to buy?
A: None of them.
GLOCKS RULE...... EVERYTHING ELSE IS CRAP....... (HI-POINT SUCKS TOO).
*That was a hit and run Glocking, brought to you by ericire12. Enjoy!
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Saving up right now for a Springfield loaded 1911. 8)
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Buy an Armscore http://www.armscor.com.ph/
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I like my GLOCK ! I fondle my 1911's. ;D 8)
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Rock Island Armory
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There are about 4800 members here so you should get a least four thousand different opinions on the subject including but not limited too those opinions of folks who think that 1911's aren't worth a darn. I won't mention any names!!! ;)
There are a wide variety of models available from 500 bucks up to 4500. Find one in the middle and always, BUY AMERICAN!!!
:)
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Gosh darn it, open that can of worms! We're pretty much in the golden age of 1911s, so it's hard to go really wrong. A while back we talked about how the best way to think about purchasing 1911s is to draw a horizontal line across the various brands at specific price points. In other words, with a "mature" product like a 1911 (and good heavens, is it mature!), features, functions and quality is consistent for guns priced roughly the same.
The baseline for what we might think of as a "fully loaded" 1911 is a grand. The hottest competition is in the low end — $600 or thereabouts — of the market. I like Paras and STIs (FULL DISCLOSURE: Para is a regular advertiser; STI has never put a penny in any of my endeavors). The low end guns I've shot have truly been exceptional...that includes the Para GI Expert, the STI Spartan and the Taurus Model 1911 series and, surprisingly, a Rock Island 1911 (made by Armscor, I believe) that carried an MSRP of $389.
The advantage of a low end gun is that when when you decide how you really want it, you've got a good platform to work with. OTOH, guns in the $1000 range should already have all those bells and whistles.
I too have seen some really good used deals on what you might think of as "IPSC custom" or target model 1911s both online and at local gun stores. You may need to do some research on these guns...a huge number of 1911s were gunsmithed for combat-style, then practical competition (I ground a few myself), with mixed results. There was such a huge demand for these guns in the late 1970s and early 1980s, before the manufacturers began offering what are now standard features, that a lot of people who should not own a Dremel tool got into the game. The quality of the gunsmithing ranged from superb to the equivalent of a beaver gnawing the guns out of a bar of soap.
I'd check the used guns for the maker's mark, then do a little research on the Internet before I plunked down my money on a modified gun. If you can't find anything about the maker, have the gun checked by a local gunsmith who's familiar with 1911s. I always ask to see 'smithed guns at a gun store on the so far vain hope of finding a Clark or a Swenson or a Novak or a Wilson or a Behlert gun that got dropped into retail channels by an unknowledgeable person. Of course, the Internet has made it DARN HARD to pick up a jewel, because people have an easy way to research the guns!
Whichever one you get, you'll like it! Then you'll have to get a .22 Conversion top end so you can afford to shoot it!
Michael B
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There's your answer ;)
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Saving up right now for a Springfield loaded 1911. 8)
I think you will be happy....I love mine. ;)
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I have also been shopping around for a Springfield "Loaded" 1911, but now I'm not so sure. I was checking out the Clark Custom Guns site in the 1911 FAQ section when I saw this..."As long as the bore is good, most factory barrels* can be made to shoot as well as match barrels..." then at the bottom of the page,"*Springfield Armory factory barrels must be tested in our barrel fixture before being utilized in an accuracy job." What's up with that? Does SA have some quality control problems that I'm unaware of?
Swoop
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Para Ordnance is the only maker I know of that gives you a choice of SA or DA 1911 and single-stack or double-stack. Dry fire an LDA and see if you want a SA after that. You can even carry it UNcocked and locked so it's safer than other 1911s. They make models to fit any need from sub-compact to longslide versions. The limited models have a lot of bells and whistles on them right out of the box.
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Excellent point Frank. A full service 1911 company, Para Ordnance...
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Taurus has a lot of bang for the buck too, but not much to choose from.
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I like my Kimber Warrior. It is my primary upstairs gun. Some people turn up their nose at Kimbers for reasons I don't fully understand but I have not had any trouble with it. It can digest everything from hardball to silvertips to semi-wadcutters. After I save up for a hunt with my daugther I am looking at getting a Kimber SIS Pro model.
Taurus and Springfield Armory are good as well. I got to shoot a Wilson quite a bit as well and I can tell you that they are worth it. Shop around a bit, it is a good time to like 1911's.
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I have also been shopping around for a Springfield "Loaded" 1911, but now I'm not so sure. I was checking out the Clark Custom Guns site in the 1911 FAQ section when I saw this..."As long as the bore is good, most factory barrels* can be made to shoot as well as match barrels..." then at the bottom of the page,"*Springfield Armory factory barrels must be tested in our barrel fixture before being utilized in an accuracy job." What's up with that? Does SA have some quality control problems that I'm unaware of?
Swoop
I don't know of any QC issues.
Part of it may be that some factory barrels have a thinner wall thickness than others. If you do an accuracy job, it sometimes means making the barrel lock up tighter than factory. This puts some extra stress in some areas of the barrel and could, under extreme circumstances, lead to problems I think. A super tight barrel bushing combined with ultra tight lock-up at the link and lugs could possibly bow a thin barrel if it is the least bit out of alignment.
Super tight tolerances can (but not always) put extra stress in some areas that are not there on a factory gun.
M25operator may be better able to give a more precise answer to this.
My SA is no Bullseye gun, but from a sandbag it will out-shoot my capabilities with Federal Match ammo.
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you can carry a 1911 cocked and unlokced, safely.
You would still have to depress the grib safety and pull the trigger. I find it ironic that almost 100 year old gun is still one of the safest on the market. The last 25-30 years many makers have made thier guns less safe.( cough glock, cough)
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you can carry a 1911 cocked and unlokced, safely.
You could carry unstable crystalized nitroglycerin "safely" too ... if you do NOTHING ELSE and move slowly.
I wholeheartedly, vehemently and strongly disagree with your statement TAB. I certainly wouldn't let any student in a class do it... not that any has ever been reckless enough to show to a class wanting to!
FWIW: I just got a call 10 minutes ago from the publisher of SWAT Magazine that one of our writers is dead this week from carrying a gun "mexican style"... he had an freak accident and he is DEAD. (DEAD) He apparently commented to his wife the day before that he "should get a holster".
Think before you do stupid things. Think twice before you post.
-RJP
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+1 Rob
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Amen, Rob!
I believe one of the greatest dangers we all face is our familiarity with and constant handling of the guns we use, compete with and test. Familiarity breeds not contempt, but inattention. People die from inattention.
The policy of all my shows is the same as the policy of all the reputable shooting sports organization...safties, even if redundant, must be engaged.
Michael B
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Amen, Rob!
I believe one of the greatest dangers we all face is our familiarity with and constant handling of the guns we use, compete with and test. Familiarity breeds not contempt, but inattention. People die from inattention.
The policy of all my shows is the same as the policy of all the reputable shooting sports organization...safties, even if redundant, must be engaged.
Michael B
Comment of the day award!
(http://www1.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/604777/2/istockphoto_604777_miniature_trophy_blank.jpg)
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I was the same as you, I wanted a 1911 to play with at the range, and a friend of mine who manages a gun shop turned me onto the Rock Island I paid $350. for it new a little over a year ago. I've learned what I want and what I don't on a 1911, now I'm going to start dressing my Rock Island the way I want it. Good gun good price.
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You could carry unstable crystalized nitroglycerin "safely" too ... if you do NOTHING ELSE and move slowly.
I wholeheartedly, vehemently and strongly disagree with your statement TAB. I certainly wouldn't let any student in a class do it... not that any has ever been reckless enough to show to a class wanting to!
FWIW: I just got a call 10 minutes ago from the publisher of SWAT Magazine that one of our writers is dead this week from carrying a gun "mexican style"... he had an freak accident and he is DEAD. (DEAD) He apparently commented to his wife the day before that he "should get a holster".
Think before you do stupid things. Think twice before you post.
-RJP
Amen, Rob!
I believe one of the greatest dangers we all face is our familiarity with and constant handling of the guns we use, compete with and test. Familiarity breeds not contempt, but inattention. People die from inattention.
The policy of all my shows is the same as the policy of all the reputable shooting sports organization...safties, even if redundant, must be engaged.
Michael B
Exactly.
Nail square on the head.
I would also add 'complacency' to the list as a 'killer of fools'.
IMHO carrying cocked with the safety disengaged is like pinning the grip safety of a carry gun. It just don't make good, logical sense. Anyone familiar with the manual of arms of a 1911 knows that 'not using the safety' offers NO real speed advantage..... and if it DID, the advantage would NEVER outweigh the DANGER involved.
Safeties are there for a reason....so we ALL go home at the end of the day.
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I was the same as you, I wanted a 1911 to play with at the range, and a friend of mine who manages a gun shop turned me onto the Rock Island I paid $350. for it new a little over a year ago. I've learned what I want and what I don't on a 1911, now I'm going to start dressing my Rock Island the way I want it. Good gun good price.
Love my Rock Island Arms 1911 ;D $360 in 06, I believe they are still under $500 if you can find one,API, Armscor, and Rock Island, are all the same manufacturer.
Welcome to the club with TAB ;D, where the grip safety earns it's money in my experience is those times when the thumb safety gets wiped off by your movement or clothing. It's nice for those times you find you have been walking around with a loaded, cocked pistol pointed at your butt cheek with NO SAFETY :(,
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You could carry unstable crystalized nitroglycerin "safely" too ... if you do NOTHING ELSE and move slowly.
I wholeheartedly, vehemently and strongly disagree with your statement TAB. I certainly wouldn't let any student in a class do it... not that any has ever been reckless enough to show to a class wanting to!
FWIW: I just got a call 10 minutes ago from the publisher of SWAT Magazine that one of our writers is dead this week from carrying a gun "mexican style"... he had an freak accident and he is DEAD. (DEAD) He apparently commented to his wife the day before that he "should get a holster".
Think before you do stupid things. Think twice before you post.
-RJP
2 things must happen for the gun to go bang. I would not recomend it, but its still safer then a glock, where only 1 thing must happen. You let students do it with a glock, why not a 1911? 4 lb trigger pull is a 4 lb trigger pull, it does not matter if its short or long. 4 lbs andit goes bang.
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TAB,
With all due respect and friendliness:
The fact that you think that length of pull and the actual weight (as opposed to your made up numbers) are not important shows a lack of thought on the topic. Your advice is reckless, as has already been pointed out. Continuing to argue in favor of it, particular with false information, only makes it worse and reduces the credibility and value of anything else you might offer on these forums. Please refrain from continuing this course of action... particularly in this thread, as your comments, and the drift they have caused, are far off the topic.
I urge you to attend a progressive professional training course (mine or someone else's) and have the fundamentals broken down for you so that you might understand the differences between the 1911 and the Glock/XD/M&P type firearms and the safe, responsible use of either.
-RJP
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Condition 0 - Ready to fire, not aimed at anything your not gonna shoot, not in a holster either.
Condition 1 - Cocked and Locked
Condition 2 - Utter Stupidity
Condition 3 - Charged and not chambered, safe when you know your not in harms way...
Condition 4 - Basically a hammer
These are what I've lived by and I'm in complete and absolute agreement with Mr. Pincus. I cut my teeth on a 1911, nearly 35 years ago.
These forums are frequented by the YOUNG and the old, the experienced and the novice and SAFETY is first and formost the most important thing we as a group can focus on and come to an agreement.
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I'm not saying I recomend it, I'm just saying its no less safe then having a say a glock in your holster. both of them must have the tirggier pulled to go bang. ( assuming the grip safety in depressed) I glock lists thier trigger pull at 5.5 lbs. Thats not a lot of presure.
I agree condiotion 2 ( which is loaded gun, hammer down) is a very bad practice, but not so much in carrying that way as it is to get to that point.
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I agree condiotion 2 ( which is loaded gun, hammer down) is a very bad practice, but not so much in carrying that way as it is to get to that point.
Does the hammer on a 1911, when down, ride on the firing pin or is there stand off type setup? I'd still rather carry it cocked rather than decock it using a very dangerous method.
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Does the hammer on a 1911, when down, ride on the firing pin or is there stand off type setup? I'd still rather carry it cocked rather than decock it using a very dangerous method.
Basically, hammer down on a loaded round is the same as carrying six rounds in an old Single Action Army revolver (except the firing pin is mounted on the SAA hammer).
On the 1911, the firing pin 'floats' with spring pressure holding it off the primer of a loaded round. When the hammer is down, it contacts the back of the firing pin. Some models have a firing pin block, in which the trigger has to be pressed to allow the pin to move forward to hit the primer.
I cringe every time I watch an old movie where some guy with a 1911 chambers a round and the lowers the hammer to carry it.
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When cocked, to decock you MUST drop the mag and rack the slide to empty the chamber. Once your positive it is unloaded you can hold the hammer with your weak hand, depress the trigger and allow the hammer to rest against the pin slowly. It is not advisable to dry fire a 1911 without snapcaps in the chamber.
A 1911 doesn't have a transfer bar or firing pin block like a modern revolver or a Beretta. The hammer rest directly against the pin when decocked.
So basically, aside from the unsafe practice of decocking a loaded chamber manually, riding on the firing pin is a disaster waiting to happen in a 1911. I guess that's why Browning gave the weapon 800 different safety mechanisms to carry a loaded weapon locked and cocked.
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I'm not saying I recomend it, I'm just saying its no less safe then having a say a glock in your holster. both of them must have the tirggier pulled to go bang. ( assuming the grip safety in depressed) I glock lists thier trigger pull at 5.5 lbs. Thats not a lot of presure.
TAB,
Normally, I'm willing to allow a little backpeddling and face saving... but that attempt wasn't good enough. YES, it is less safe.
You managed to educate yourself about the standard Glock trigger weight (5.5)... of course, they also come in 3.5lb varieties (and other configurations). BUT, the length of travel is significant in this issue... as is the trigger safety, which works against the possibility of "something" brushing up against the edge of the trigger and pulling it (including the finger).
Next, we need to address the 1911 Trigger... 4lbs would be pretty heavy for many 1911 Fans.... 3 or less lbs are common. Of course, the fact that the triggers vary so much and can be changed so easily precludes generalizations, which might be another important lesson. As noted previously, this trigger also generally requires significantly less travel than the Glock Types and doesn't feature the trigger safety lever that they other types generally do.
The volume based "top forum member" tag that your profile carries might accidently lend undue credence to your posts, please reconsider spurious and uniformed contributions in when safety is the issue.
*****
Again, to the OP and everyone else, I apologize for the interruption. I don't have the ability to split threads (or just close this) in this sub-forum.
-RJP
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On the 1911, the firing pin 'floats' with spring pressure holding it off the primer of a loaded round. When the hammer is down, it contacts the back of the firing pin. Some models have a firing pin block, in which the trigger has to be pressed to allow the pin to move forward to hit the primer.
I cringe every time I watch an old movie where some guy with a 1911 chambers a round and the lowers the hammer to carry it.
My Sig P220 has the same 'float'. It rids on top of the firing pin when fully down, if you were to strike the hammer, with you hand or by dropping it, you could discharge the weapon.
And you wouldn't believe how many video games I've seen the decock in, next game I make the dudes gonna pull the grenade and throw the pin. ;D I'll call it 'Warrior Pincus', his only line will be, "Don't worry, I've watched alot of movies! Just let me decock this 1911 real quick....."
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I think it would be best to consider the weapon's designers intentions. Glocks are design not to have a manual safety therefor they've got the various passive safeties, like Rob said. And Browning wanted his to be manual, that way we can have that fantastic single action....action.