Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: Pathfinder on April 22, 2009, 06:22:34 AM
Title: Front Sight
Post by: Pathfinder on April 22, 2009, 06:22:34 AM
I was listening to Gresham's show on podcast, and heard his comments - or lack of them - on Front Sight's training program. Having seen the briefly run TV show they did, I thought they were a major player.
Does anyone have first-hand experience with them and can comment on their training program? I'm just curious as to why Gresham might have invoked his grandmother's aphorism of "If you can't say something nice about someone, don't say anything at all".
Update: I found a bunch of stuff about RICO allegations (no resolution as yet it seems) having to do with his Disneyland for Shooters real estate deal; and a lawsuit against a blogger for saying he was Scientology (settled out of court), but most of the hits on Google were 4-9 years ago. Most of the comments on the actual training appear to be good.
Anything more up to date?
Title: Re: Front Sight
Post by: philw on April 22, 2009, 06:41:56 AM
I was listening to Gresham's show on podcast, and heard his comments - or lack of them - on Front Sight's training program. Having seen the briefly run TV show they did, I thought they were a major player.
Does anyone have first-hand experience with them and can comment on their training program? I'm just curious as to why Gresham might have invoked his grandmother's aphorism of "If you can't say something nice about someone, don't say anything at all".
I heard the same thing today when driving to work, and thought the same thing
Title: Re: Front Sight
Post by: ellis4538 on April 22, 2009, 06:54:35 AM
They had some legal trouble recently. Word had it that they were not able to supply the advertised training and people who had paid in advance were seeking refunds.
YOU HEAR ALL SORTS OF RUMORS SO FWIW!
Richard
PS: From the TV program it seemed that they had some pretty neat training.
Title: Re: Front Sight
Post by: Shiv on April 22, 2009, 06:57:02 AM
I sent off for their information and watched the promotional DVD. In my own mildly educated opinion, the DVD seemed to focus on the facility and the condos, and the new buildng projects. The classes offered were fine, but taking the classes was tied into a lifetime membership that meant you could take several classes as many times as you wanted. This could indicate that Frontsight might not have the confidence in their product, by offering unlimited access to a scheduled class, in that they don't expect to have full classes from professional consumers, police, military, etc.. But rather they rely on keeping members in those classes because they come there for the resort like amenities their membership affords them.
The weird thing is that through the whole presentation, and I can't say specifically why, but I kept getting this weird cultish feeling about the place. It was probably my chronic paranoia flaring up, but I sensed there was more to the story than was on the DVD.
So there is my 2 pence worth!
Title: Re: Front Sight
Post by: fightingquaker13 on April 22, 2009, 07:06:17 AM
I sent off for their information and watched the promotional DVD. In my own mildly educated opinion, the DVD seemed to focus on the facility and the condos, and the new buildng projects. The classes offered were fine, but taking the classes was tied into a lifetime membership that meant you could take several classes as many times as you wanted. This could indicate that Frontsight might not have the confidence in their product, by offering unlimited access to a scheduled class, in that they don't expect to have full classes from professional consumers, police, military, etc.. But rather they rely on keeping members in those classes because they come there for the resort like amenities their membership affords them.
The weird thing is that through the whole presentation, and I can't say specifically why, but I kept getting this weird cultish feeling about the place. It was probably my chronic paranoia flaring up, but I sensed there was more to the story than was on the DVD.
So there is my 2 pence worth!
As Sgt. Major Fox explained to me as a young ROTC cadet, there are two primary rules to combat and life. Rule 1) Don't die. Rule 2) Listen to your instincts, if they say run, then run. A weird cultish feel to a gun centered Florida development sounds like the dust jacket of a Carl Hiasson or Elmore Leonard novel. Run Away! Run Away! FQ13 who will be going nowhere near the place
Title: Re: Front Sight
Post by: Sgt Z Squad on April 22, 2009, 07:28:22 AM
I sent off for their information and watched the promotional DVD. In my own mildly educated opinion, the DVD seemed to focus on the facility and the condos, and the new buildng projects. The classes offered were fine, but taking the classes was tied into a lifetime membership that meant you could take several classes as many times as you wanted.
I got the same package. You can take the classes without becoming a First Family Member. Price for the Four Day handgun course is $2000. The training looks good and for those who are looking for a community like this, great. I thought the 4th of July scene with Ignatius kissing his wife was a little corny but we don't see that anymore, God bless them.
When you are an entrepreneur stepping outside of the box, you are bound to make some enemies. Right?
My son and I are going to try to take the four day class in a year or two. Price is up there. We will see. Saving the shekels, just hope O Bam Bam leaves me a couple. :P
Title: Re: Front Sight
Post by: JC5123 on April 22, 2009, 04:54:59 PM
Signed up for their E newsletter and after getting two editions I promptly canceled. One of the articles was 5 paragraphs on why you shouldn't practice very much. That if you use their "proven" techniques you'll be shooting like a Navy SEAL in 5 days. And that too much practice is actually bad, because it reinforces bad habits... ??? HUH! So what you are saying is that the shooters of SEALs and Delta should be getting worse since they fire around 50,000 rds per year, per man???
After reading this and some other questionable information, that I know ffor myself was BS, I had to say No Mas. and canceled. I have actually gotten better info from this forum than from their news letters.
Title: Re: Front Sight
Post by: Texas_Bryan on April 22, 2009, 05:25:49 PM
And that too much practice is actually bad, because it reinforces bad habits... ??? HUH! So what you are saying is that the shooters of SEALs and Delta should be getting worse since they fire around 50,000 rds per year, per man???
I'd rather have the bad habits down pat and know how to work around them, than to be in panic mode because I don't know how to do anything.
Title: Re: Front Sight
Post by: twyacht on April 22, 2009, 05:57:55 PM
I'd rather have the bad habits down pat and know how to work around them, than to be in panic mode because I don't know how to do anything.
"Amateurs train until they get it right, professionals train until they cannot get it wrong. If you've seen police qualifications, you know this is false. Amateurs train until they get it right, professionals train no more than they are paid to." E. Charles
"I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times." Bruce Lee
Practice, practice, practice! I will always be learning and practicing on my approach to firearms.
Title: Re: Front Sight
Post by: sgtmac on April 22, 2009, 07:53:12 PM
Front Sight had a TV show awhile back where the pitted a civilian that had just been through a course against former and current military and police, The did pistol, long gun etc, It was just one long ad, the civilian always won because the "experts" always made a mistake. In one, the cop, who I think said he was SWAT, braced his rifle BARREL, on the edge of a METAL drum, stupid crap like that. I have never heard a good thing about them, seen them in a magazine, in a ad or write up. I would use caution with them, atleast do a ton of research and background info. As far as I can tell, they are not on our list of approved schools, but that does not mean to much. If you take a course, let us know how it goes.
Not trying to start crap, just my observations!
Title: Re: Front Sight
Post by: Pathfinder on April 23, 2009, 06:19:16 AM
In response to the question on the cost of their training, I got an email from them advertising for a 2-day pistol training certificate for $100, no limits and no expiration.
Yes, Piazza comes across a bit strong, and I don't usually read the whole email I get from them, very weird, over the top marketing where everything is repeated at least 3 times. Old school NY City style aggressive advertising.
All in all, the internet comments seem to indicate that the training is very good, it's the sales pitches and management "suits" that suck. Thought someone here might have gone through the training and could speak first hand.
Title: Re: Front Sight
Post by: cooptire on April 23, 2009, 02:15:13 PM
I'm like a lot of others here. Something just seems a little off with the whole thing. I can't put my finger on it though. I just had state LEO in my shop yesterday and we got to talking training and he said the the place in Tulsa (USSA), was a first rate facility, with first rate training. He mentioned that several of his collegues had taken courses there on their own with their own money. He was a Wildlife and Parks Ranger and said he wanted to be as good as he can because he is generally no where near any backup. YMMV.
Title: Re: Front Sight
Post by: MikeBjerum on April 23, 2009, 05:04:59 PM
I get their e-mail newsletters, and I read over half of them. They have some good advice, but they have some strange advice. I am disappointed that everything they send is mostly ads to get you to spend on something diquised as information. Their constant offerings of memberships that people quit paying on would tie in with some of what has been said on here about customer satisfaction or confidence.
Title: Re: Front Sight
Post by: Ping on April 23, 2009, 05:25:03 PM
My wife wanted to take a vacation where we could attend a gun course. She signed up for Frontsight and now we get emails, letters and phone calls at home and on our cell phones. Not appreciating the Uber Aggressive advertising. Isn't Frontsight in anti-gun California? I told the wife that if we are to take a class together that it should be at the USSA in Tulsa. We would have room and board since the in-laws live there. That is a plus in my opinion and plan on going to Tulsa this fall.
Title: Re: Front Sight
Post by: twyacht on April 25, 2009, 10:55:02 AM
Just got the secondamendmentmarch.com update, Front Sight is now a big sponsor offering free sessions and other stuff.
http://www.secondamendmentmarch.com/news_032109.htm April 22 , 2009
Front Sight Firearms Training Institute Supports Second Amendment March!
The Second Amendment March is proud to announce we are partnering with Front Sight Firearms Training Institute, www.frontsight.com a world-renowned personal defense school located near Las Vegas, Nevada. Dr. Ignatius Piazza, Four Weapons Combat Master and Founder and Director of Front Sight, has graciously offered to support the Second Amendment March by backing up his words with his money.
Dr. Piazza is a patriot and believes so strongly in the Right to Keep and Bear Arms and the Second Amendment March that he is offering a FREE Two-Day Defensive Handgun course to any person who supports or attends the Second Amendment March in Washington DC or any of the 50 State Capitol Marches. Upon attending the DC March or any of the 50 State Capitol Marches you will receive a certificate redeemable for a Front Sight Two Day Defensive Handgun Course with no expiration date! That's right! You heard me correctly. We're talking about a $1,000 Two-Day Defensive Handgun Course at world-class Front Sight Firearms Training Institute FREE OF CHARGE simply for supporting the Second Amendment March! How can any patriotic American justify not supporting the Second Amendment March with an offer like that?
But wait! Dr. Piazza isn't done! If you can't make it to the DC March or any of the 50 State Capitol Marches to take advantage of this great offer, then read further... Dr. Piazza will extend this offer to any person who donates $100 to the Second Amendment March in the next 30 days! That's how serious he is about the Right to Keep and Bear Arms! Please don't miss this once-in-a-lifetime opportunity! Go now to www.frontsight.com and to learn all about the classes Front Sight offers. This is a $1,000 class simply for doing the right thing in supporting the Second Amendment March!
Once again, thank you Dr. Piazza and Front Sight Firearms Training Institute for your generosity.
All the best,
Skip Coryell Founder, Second Amendment March
Title: Re: Front Sight
Post by: Shiv on April 25, 2009, 02:54:17 PM
Sounds like a "free 3 day 2 night vacation in a beautiful Las Vegas resort!" even the structure of that release was like a pitch for a timeshare.
BTW, if Piazza is a 4 weapon combat master, who was his teacher? Or better yet, what are the requirements to become a "combat master"?
Title: Re: Front Sight
Post by: tombogan03884 on April 25, 2009, 02:59:43 PM
I have no experience with Frontsight beyond the E mails and Mailings but I get the impression that Piazza's D0octorate is in used car sales.
Title: Re: Front Sight
Post by: twyacht on April 25, 2009, 04:02:56 PM
If you swap the fans and Air Cond. for guns and training, it kinda has a little of that on the FrontSight.
We all remember Crazy Eddie Right ::)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jc-Mhynh_pg
Title: Re: Front Sight
Post by: Timothy on April 25, 2009, 04:10:26 PM
The interweb ;D says he's a chiropractor so he's not really a doctor. No offense to any other chiropractors out there, I have friends who can't do without them.
As far as a PhD, you can buy them on the internet, statistics in the US indicate that nearly 50% of masters degrees and doctorates are FAKE....I had a boss who hand lettered his own BSME from Northeastern University...
I've mastered the fork, spoon, chefs knife and a potato peeler, does that make me a "Four Weapons Combat Master"?
I'm a bit cynical when it comes to this stuff....sorry! ;D Where I need training is trying to roll cast a 1/32 oz dry fly in a 10 knot wind in dense cover....
Title: Re: Front Sight
Post by: bumpster on April 27, 2009, 10:37:07 PM
http://www.frontsightlitigation.com/
Appears to be losing a fairly large class action lawsuit. I have been 3 times. Training was fine (never pay list).
Title: Re: Front Sight
Post by: deamonpi on April 27, 2009, 11:14:29 PM
From the little information I've seen, it seems more about joining the club than getting good training. I watched the DVD they sent and read the emails, mostly, but the message I get is join our club, and by the way we theme our club around firearms training.
Title: Re: Front Sight
Post by: 1776 Rebel on April 28, 2009, 12:19:28 PM
I think there is an AR picatinny rail attachment for that. ;D ;D ;D
that would screw up the action on my "Tactical Flyrod".....but thanks for the tip, Reb!
Title: Re: Front Sight
Post by: Hottrockin on April 28, 2009, 06:05:48 PM
I signed up for the freebie stuff and info and agree that it all seems like a BIG infomercial...kinda tacky! I'm sure they have some grand stuff to offer, but, still the "join now" as it's your last chance just comes off kinda beggin'!
Title: Re: Front Sight
Post by: pioneer on April 30, 2009, 05:27:21 PM
TV shows are edited and follow a script. Your mistakes and screw-ups can be made to go away. The Front Sight infomercial is pure hype. I thought of giving them try and soon found it to be nothing more than a money making scheme with marginal training technique. But as Tom's grandmother says, "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all." Someone who is sincere and genuine, doesn't need to keep reminding you that he is a "doctor."
Title: Re: Front Sight
Post by: RickB on May 01, 2009, 10:18:04 PM
Hello all, This is in response to the posts I've read about Front Sight in Nevada. I'm 56 years old & just started shooting again after 35 years. I signed up for the "tips" that would make me a better shooter. I received the DVD too. The movie was good but like most of you, I thought it was a bit "over the top". I make sure I do my homework when I spend my money & more importantly my time. I also received more than a bunch of e-mails with all the "sign up now" stuff. But as I continued to check out Front Sight on the web & other forums I found that about 90-95% negative comments was from people that were never there & just repeating what they heard. Last October I took my son-in-law with me to the 4 day Defensive Handgun class & the 1 day, 30 state CCW class. We were both very impressed with the level of trainning we received. I worked my hind end off to keep up & learn as much as possible. I didn't hear anything negative from any of the 25 in our class. We had a couple of cops & some ex-military & everyday people like myself. The range master & instructors were excellent.
I have been back there 3 more times & can't beleive what I've learned in 6 months. I do the dry practice like they recommend. Almost all the shooting is from the holster & controlled pairs. I can honestly say that if anybody goes there for trainning that I think they would have to agree about the level of training you receive there. We do night firing one night & tons more. One thing I'd like to mention that most don't seem to know about what a Combat Master is. When I was there about a month ago I found out that there are I think 3 of them at Front Sight. I beleive there are only 52 or 53 in the world. You can be a Combat Master in handgun, rifle, machine gun & shotgun, & the founder, has all four. I read one of the threads before mine & asked where the founder became a Combat Master. I think the head of all this is Chuck Taylor. If I messed up his name justGoogle Combat Master, & find the man's website. He is a leader in combat shooting & tactics . I hope this first hand account after 13 days of training there may help anybody that wants to know from somebody that has attended. As for those that already made up there minds based on notions, nothing will clearify anything. Take care, Rick
Title: Re: Front Sight
Post by: tombogan03884 on May 01, 2009, 11:48:50 PM
Thank's for the input Rick. I think the negetive opinions are probably from the fact that the advertising reminds many of Amway and other "Cult Companies".
Title: Re: Front Sight
Post by: Pathfinder on May 16, 2009, 06:54:06 AM
***Off topic Alert*** Cool link, Pathfinder, as far as the location is concerned. Nye county is where my parents lived (USAF) when I was born in '68, although I was actually born in Mineral county because it had the closest hospital.
**Topic related** As in RickB's post about Chuck Taylor, you better be on top of you game to pass his Combat Master Test, it ain't nothing to sneeze at from what I understand.
May 15, 2009 Dr. Ignatius Piazza Founder and Director http://www.frontsight.com/free-gun.asp
Only 3 Day Left to Secure Self Reliance Lifetime Membership
Dear Phil,
This weekend we are once again training over 400 students to levels of expertise with firearms that exceed law enforcement and military standards without any boot camp mentality or drill instructor attitudes.
I anticipate you only have 3 days left to secure your own Self Reliance Lifetime Membership before they are sold out so my office staff will be working over the weekend to make sure you can secure your lifetime membership!
Take advantage of the special offer below and get yourself and every member of your family a special, Self Reliance Membership before they are gone...
Don't Miss This Special Front Sight Lifetime Membership Because It Is Perfect for Your Kids As Well As Adults...
See this link and take advantage of my special 2 for 1 Self Reliance Front Sight Lifetime Membership Before It Sells Out!
Dr. Ignatius Piazza Founder and Director Front Sight Firearms Training Institute P. O. Box 2619 Aptos, CA 95001 http://www.frontsight.com info@frontsight.com 1.800.987.7719
Front Sight Firearms Training Institute is committed to the best email practices and has been accredited by the Institute for Spam and Internet Public Policy as meeting the requirements for listing in their SuretyMail IADB Email Accreditation Program. Our IADB registration number is 2007043000543. For more information see http://www.SuretyMail.com
If you received this newsletter in error and don't want to receive emails from us, please click: http://www.frontsight.com/subscribe.asp?e=philw@-------.com
This Email Newsletter was sent to: philw@---------.com on 5/15/2009 9:25:04 PM. ID#154368 [-827.923548-] UniqID: 99190
Title: Re: Front Sight
Post by: 1911 Junkie on May 16, 2009, 05:50:52 PM
I can sum up Phils letter in much fewer words.
Dear Phil,
Hurry up and send us your money before we go out of buisness.
Thanks.
Title: Re: Front Sight
Post by: 84B20 on August 17, 2011, 01:32:24 PM
I know this is an old thread but I think this is the most appropriate location. After hearing Michael Bane's podcast last night about training, I though I'd make my first post here regarding the training I recently undertook. It was at Front Sight in Nevada. I feel he failed to even mention it in the program probably because of some of the negative comments regarding their advertising method and their failed attempt to raise enough funds to start their resort. All I can say is I have gone through training there recently and found it to be excellent. I have been CCW for over 25 years and was trained in the Army and nothing I have experienced in the past compares. This post was to reinforce RickB post and to update the post that Pathfinder made indicating they were going out of business, which is far from the truth.
One final note about their advertising. It was through one of the emails that I was able to purchase 3 courses at a much reduced price. This enabled me to take a handgun and a rifle course and I was even able to convince my wife to attend the handgun course with me, which wouldn’t have happened at the standard rate.
Title: Re: Front Sight
Post by: MikeBjerum on August 17, 2011, 01:57:11 PM
Thanks 84B20!
Welcome to the mud hole! Stop over to the new member thread, and introduce yourself.
It is good to get an update like this, and that is what this place is for. It would be nice if Front Sight would address some of these issues more directly in a method that does not parallel an infomercial.
Hope to see you around more.
Title: Re: Front Sight
Post by: Solus on August 17, 2011, 02:42:14 PM
Thanks, 84. You don't mind if I call you 84 do you? Just call me Sol.
I've never heard anything bad about Front Sight training.....I see a lot of flak about Pizza's marketing methods and some of his real estate practices, but never anything bad about the training.
I've not run across anyone who has taken the training so you are the first.
Perhaps you can answer some of the concerns that have been expressed on the Forum about Front Sight.
Hidden costs for one, requirements to purchase ammo at Front Sight, cost of ammo there and other concerns.
I'd welcome any kind of run through of "the day in the life of a Front Sight Student" even if you can't get into detail about the training itself.
Take care.
Title: Re: Front Sight
Post by: 84B20 on August 17, 2011, 03:55:03 PM
Thanks, 84. You don't mind if I call you 84 do you? Just call me Sol.
I've never heard anything bad about Front Sight training.....I see a lot of flak about Pizza's marketing methods and some of his real estate practices, but never anything bad about the training.
I've not run across anyone who has taken the training so you are the first.
Perhaps you can answer some of the concerns that have been expressed on the Forum about Front Sight.
Hidden costs for one, requirements to purchase ammo at Front Sight, cost of ammo there and other concerns.
I'd welcome any kind of run through of "the day in the life of a Front Sight Student" even if you can't get into detail about the training itself.
Take care.
No problem, what's in a name anyway? :)
As far as any hidden cost, if you check the website all the costs are listed. The only additional cost is the $50 background check and it is only charged once for the whole year. As far as ammo, the only time they require you to use their ammo is if you rent one of their firearms. I purchased my own for my courses. You just can't use steel bullets, the casing can be anything. They don't allow anything but new factory loads. That is so they can assure safe loads. The main thing they stress is safety. They train so may people they have to be very strict about it, thankfully.
If you want more about the training you should visit their website, there is a lot of info on it and if you have specific questions you can call their 800 number and ask one of their reps. They are very helpful. You can ask me also but be advised, I'm only a student and far from an expert.