The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Politics & RKBA => Topic started by: ericire12 on April 22, 2009, 11:12:13 AM
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http://www.kenoshanews.com/news/opencarry_ruling_triggers_gun_debate_4800679.html
Open-carry ruling triggers gun debate
Kenosha sheriff, police chief weigh in
BY BILL GUIDA
bguida@kenoshanews.com
While the state’s top attorney says it is legal for residents to carry unconcealed firearms in public, Milwaukee authorities say they won’t stand for it.
“My message to my troops is if you see anybody carrying a gun on the streets of Milwaukee, we’ll put them on the ground, take the gun away and then decide whether you have a right to carry it,” Milwaukee Police Chief Ed Flynn said.
“Maybe I’ll end up with a protest of cowboys. In the meantime, I’ve got serious offenders with access to handguns. It’s irresponsible to send a message to them that if they just carry it openly no one can bother them.”
Meanwhile, Kenosha County’s top cops said how their officers and deputies will respond to openly armed citizens won’t be automatic and aggressive, depending on a number of factors, including the setting and behavior of the citizen involved.
Attorney General J.B. Van Hollen issued a memo saying the law allows carrying unconcealed weapons without a permit, as long as it’s done peacefully and within specified restrictions, such as not taking guns into schools.
Van Hollen’s memo concluded that citizens have a constitutional right to openly carry firearms and doing so cannot alone warrant arrests for disorderly conduct.
Morrissey and Beth said they agree with Van Hollen’s interpretation of the law but said how their personnel will respond on scene will be dictated by circumstances.
Morrissey said his main hope is that those who exercise their right to carry a weapon openly understand fellow citizens might react adversely, triggering calls to police.
“And we are going to respond to those calls,” Morrissey said. “I don’t know that we’re going to take them down.
“If it’s an individual just walking down the street carrying a gun, we may just stop them and talk to them. Someone cutting their grass with a push mower, openly wearing a gun — for whatever reason somebody might want to do that — we’re not going to take him down.”
Like Morrissey, Beth cited nuanced police responses based on what deputies observe. He noted the difference between, for example, spotting someone toting a shotgun in a farm field in a rural area where hunting is common versus carrying the same weapon on a city street or in downtown Paddock Lake.
“If I’m in the city, I’ll probably react just like Chief Flynn says in Milwaukee,” Beth said. “In an urban area, that isn’t the norm.
“What creates a disturbance is someone’s perception of what’s going on,” Beth added. “If our officers see someone walking with a shotgun in the city of Kenosha, we’re going to order him down, take it away from him and ask questions afterward.”
Morrissey cited a recent situation at a Kenosha grocery store where a customer entered the store wearing a holstered sidearm outside his jacket.
“That created a terrible stir. Other customers and the store manager wanted him to leave the store,” Morrissey said.
When police arrived, the man willingly gave up his handgun, and police returned it to him after he exited the store. Morrissey said the man never acted aggressively and obeyed all police orders. Had he done otherwise, he could have faced disorderly conduct charges or more serious charges, Morrissey said.
Milwaukee County Sheriff David Clarke, however, echoed Flynn’s response.
“How we approach a person with a gun, I can tell you right now, isn’t going to change. As far as a law enforcement person is concerned, you just don’t walk up to a person with a gun and say ‘Excuse me, sir,”’ Clarke said. “On the ground, give up. Get that gun under control and then we’ll figure out what we got here.”
Wisconsin is one of 29 states that allow people to openly carry a firearm without a permit. It’s one of two states that bans concealed weapons.
Flynn’s comments came as gun control advocates and state lawmakers derided Van Hollen’s ruling.
“The idea of people ... openly carrying guns strikes me as somewhere between bonkers and totally ridiculous and stupid,” said state Rep. Josh Zepnick, D-Milwaukee.
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Looks like ya got a couple of renegade, power hungry, jack booted thugs as sheriffs that need to be 'taken down'!
They should be sued every time a citizen gets 'taken down'. After all open carry IS legal. The person carrying was not causing the disturbance. The disturbance will be caused by the Deputies over reacting to a complaint. The complaint should be handled by explaining to the bed wetting anti that called it in that the gun owner is NOT breaking any laws and is in fact perfectly legal. If deputy dawg harasses the law abiding gun owner instead then HE (deputy) is causing the disturbance by breaking the law.
Could be a lucrative business for some enterprising lawyer.
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And I work in Milwaukee ::)
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And I work in Milwaukee ::)
Does the air smell of corrupt power hungry cops that don't work for the people, or is it just this one unpleasant fellow?
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Not sure. He has been doing a good job on crime or so the local newspaper says ::). Doing live street roll calls in sh$t areas. But I don't really make judgements calls on Police Chiefs because they tend to be political. I use to work for them in a support capacity (civilian) back in the 80's. If you want to make an informed decision on his remarks or him in general /what he's made of. I would always listen to the guys and gals that patrol the streets or the rank and file if you will.
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But I don't really make judgements calls on Police Chiefs because they tend to be political.
Anyone above street cop, his supervisor, and his supervisor is politician. Employee, manager, his manager, then policy makers.
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Looks like ya got a couple of renegade, power hungry, jack booted thugs as sheriffs that need to be 'taken down'!
They should be sued every time a citizen gets 'taken down'. After all open carry IS legal. The person carrying was not causing the disturbance. The disturbance will be caused by the Deputies over reacting to a complaint. The complaint should be handled by explaining to the bed wetting anti that called it in that the gun owner is NOT breaking any laws and is in fact perfectly legal. If deputy dawg harasses the law abiding gun owner instead then HE (deputy) is causing the disturbance by breaking the law.
Could be a lucrative business for some enterprising lawyer.
I wonder how many lawsuits until he either changes his mind or loses his job.
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Can't the Sheriff be re-called, or held in contempt of a court order?
Sounds like a schmuck.....
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Can't the Sheriff be re-called, or held in contempt of a court order?
Sounds like a schmuck.....
recalling a elected offical is extremly hard to do. They have to really mess up bad in the eyes of the voters. The contempt of court deal, almost never happens. Judges are political as well. its not good to go around having police cheifs arrested, unless they do something very bad.
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recalling a elected offical is extremly hard to do. They have to really mess up bad in the eyes of the voters. The contempt of court deal, almost never happens. Judges are political as well. its not good to go around having police cheifs arrested, unless they do something very bad.
Very Bad! Or cost the city alot of money in lawsuits!
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How about some CIVIL Disobedience. Have 500 people PEACEFULLY protest across the street from his office while openly carrying.
The Court said they can right?
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How about some CIVIL Disobedience. Have 500 people PEACEFULLY protest across the street from his office while openly carrying.
The Court said they can right?
you 1st.
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you 1st.
"It's easy to be brave from a distance."
Aesop
If I were a Wisconsin resident, the you 1st would be followed by another, and another, and another,.....
Keyword: Peacefully. I would stand there openly carrying an UNLOADED firearm, with a big sign stating, Who Are You To Deny Me My Right?
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P.S. I would be a media whore and get the NRA, Ted Nugent, close enough in Michigan, Sean Hannity, Bill O'Reilly, Michael Savage, and anyone else who defends the Constitution to show the video of a citizen being "taken down" with an UNLOADED yet openly carried sidearm.
Affirmed by the Wisconsin Courts to be allowed to do so.
Like my grandfather used to say, hit the biggest one first..the rest usually run away.....
Just like Liberals.....
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you 1st.
No problem! I'd be proud to 'be first' in suipporting my rights!
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“My message to my troops is if you see anybody carrying a gun on the streets of Milwaukee, we’ll put them on the ground, take the gun away and then decide whether you have a right to carry it,” Milwaukee Police Chief Ed Flynn said.
“Maybe I’ll end up with a protest of cowboys.
The Milwaukee Police Chief sounds like an arrogant pig, no pun or disrespect to LEOs intendened. Refering to citizens excecising their constitutional right to carry and protest is unacceptable. No offense to real cowboys, but I interpet the way he used cowboys as demeaning and derogatory. If this meets the definition of hate speech he should be prosecuted. At the least the city council should discipline or terminate him. If I were to talk in this manner about gays or minorites I would be strung up. Would he belittle someone for reading the newspaper in a public park? That is protected as is the right to carry and protest.
How about some CIVIL Disobedience. Have 500 people PEACEFULLY protest across the street from his office while openly carrying.
The Court said they can right?
Sounds like a good idea and I wouldn't be surprised if there is grass roots protest.
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My dad lives in De Pere, WI and was invited to a meeting at a nearby farm with around 30 other guys. They met to discuss ideas on how they can reign in the bloated government we have. He told me today this topic came up there and a few of them were looking into getting a protest started (peacefully). I wish I still lived there because I would be there in a heartbeat!
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The whole point of these "take downs" is to send a message to everyone else that they will not tolerate open carry- intimidation. These tactics are similar to what the police did in the '60's during the civil rights movement. Unfortunately, the current DOJ probably will not get in the middle of this given their posture toward guns. It really is up to the locals to do something about these thugs.....
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Friends-
As a LEO for 29 plus years; put yourself in the shoes of the police officer on the street. You have thugs and you have the law abiding. Now you have someone, who you do not know, openly carrying a firearm. Is this person a nut job, a thug or a citizen exercising his legal right to open carry? How would you approach the individual? What precautions would you take or would not take? And please common sense rules here.. :-[
I personally think that you are putting yourself at a great disadvantage when you openly carry. The chief does not help his subordinates by taking the position he verbalized. He could have explained his position in a more sensible way; but then the newpapers would not want that either.
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The state does not ALLOW concealed carry.
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Friends-
As a LEO for 29 plus years; put yourself in the shoes of the police officer on the street. You have thugs and you have the law abiding. Now you have someone, who you do not know, openly carrying a firearm. Is this person a nut job, a thug or a citizen exercising his legal right to open carry? How would you approach the individual? What precautions would you take or would not take? And please common sense rules here.. :-[
I personally think that you are putting yourself at a great disadvantage when you openly carry. The chief does not help his subordinates by taking the position he verbalized. He could have explained his position in a more sensible way; but then the newpapers would not want that either.
SgtZ,
I have no problem with an officer approaching the citizen and asking a few POLITE questions.
I DO have a problem with 'take downs' for no reason other than exercising your rights.
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The Milwaukee Police Chief sounds like an arrogant pig, no pun or disrespect to LEOs intendened. Refering to citizens excecising their constitutional right to carry and protest is unacceptable. No offense to real cowboys, but I interpet the way he used cowboys as demeaning and derogatory. If this meets the definition of hate speech he should be prosecuted. At the least the city council should discipline or terminate him. If I were to talk in this manner about gays or minorites I would be strung up. Would he belittle someone for reading the newspaper in a public park? That is protected as is the right to carry and protest.
The problem that I see is not just that he is discriminating or playing politics here, but more importantly that he is publicly saying that he will not do his job and enforce the law. He is tarnishing the entire police force when he says that he will pick and choose which laws he feels should be enforced. He is betraying the public trust and undermining the entire criminal justice system of his state and local community. For that alone, he should be fired. What good is a police officer at any level that will make a statement to a reporter that they will not accept the law as it is written. It is not his job to interpret the law..... it is his job to enforce it. He is required to enforce EVERY law, if he agrees with it or not. If he can not or will not do that job, he should be fired.
*If this guy was a member of the military he would either be court marshaled for not following orders or charged with treason.
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SgtZ,
I have no problem with an officer approaching the citizen and asking a few POLITE questions.
I DO have a problem with 'take downs' for no reason other than exercising your rights.
Right. An officer that does a traffic stop is in EXTREME LIFE THREATENING danger each time he approaches a vehicle to do a stop...... BUT we do not allow officers to approach each car with gun drawn and force the driver to the ground to secure them in hand cuffs. If we did, countless officer lives would be saved each year, but its not a protocol that would be accepted by the public. There would be countless lawsuits for excessive force and/or discrimination.
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Right. An officer that does a traffic stop is in EXTREME LIFE THREATENING danger each time he approaches a vehicle to do a stop...... BUT we do not allow officers to approach each car with gun drawn and force the driver to the ground to secure them in hand cuffs. If we did, countless officer lives would be saved each year, but its not a protocol that would be accepted by the public. There would be countless lawsuits for excessive force and/or discrimination.
Sorry guys you are not answering the questions I left for you. Easy to quarterback from your computer stand. It's your call. What do you do?
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Sorry guys you are not answering the questions I left for you. Easy to quarterback from your computer stand. It's your call. What do you do?
I did answer your question. Approach him politely and ask for some ID.
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I did answer your question. Approach him politely and ask for some ID.
+1
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I did answer your question. Approach him politely and ask for some ID.
(http://www.libertyfilmfestival.com/libertas/wp-content/uploads/2007/04/john_wayne.jpg)
Well partner, you get the Duke Award. Ya-a-ha! ;D
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I will weight in on this because I lived in Milwaukee for 40 yrs so I understand/have seen more than I care to in a city of this size. I come from a LE family and as I have said in a past post. I worked for the MPD as a civilian for 11 yrs.(1980-91). I have been physically robbed twice once in Milwaukee and once in Tulsa Ok. and a third time in Tulsa at the gas station I worked at in 79 a BG stopped in his car at the door looked at me and then looked at my co-worker who just happen to walk to the counter and drove off. He went down the block and robbed the lounge (they were a dry county then) and as I heard he shot someone. That came from the LEO that interviewed me after it happened. Why all this history? Because if anyone should be jumpy it should be me. I have to agree with Sgt Z. Squad. I understand where he is coming from. Hazcat I also understand where your coming from. If they would pass the CCW in Wi. I would go for it. But as I see it open carry is not a smart idea. You put a bullseye on your back. Either from a seasoned BG or law enforcement. But all we have here is open carry. And the sheep here. Well it scares them. If you live here and you want to open carry, go for it. But there maybe a price to be payed. As far as the MPD chief and the County sheriff. Well as I said in my past post they are political. And we all know how that plays out. To give you an idea how a day here MIlwaukee goes for LEO's. My buddys son just got on the job. He has been on it for 2 yrs. He asked his son how many time he has drawn his weapon. His answer was. Every day. Understand that mind set and you will uderstand why you may not get a polite approach from LE. I think as time goes on more sheep maybe comfortable with open carry if they see it. This just my opinion. So fire up the flame throwers and have your say.
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I always heard an armed society, was a polite society.
Maybe this will help motivate Wisconsin to pass a CCW law that won't make the Milwaukee sheriff so asinine in his response.
Generally, BG's won;t open carry because they would draw attention to themselves, questioning by LEO's, show ID, which when called in, would reveal warrants, or ex-felon status.
BG's don;t want interaction with LEO's under ANY circumstances. They'll Mexican carry, and stay in the shadows.
The family man with his J-frame, going fishing with his son, is hardly a reason for a "Take Down".
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.......The family man with his J-frame, going fishing with his son, is hardly a reason for a "Take Down".
It's paranoia.
Ask the Gonzales, La. police chief what happens when an official publically says he will enforce an illegal arrest contrary to law because he wants to.....terms of the settlement not released...$$$$$$$$$
It's legal or not. If PD's can make laws what's the point of having a government of checks and balances. The PD is, mostly, a service to the administrative function of government to enforce laws established by the legislative arm and, as needed, interpreted by the courts. When service organizations make and interpret laws, despite the good intentions, it follow that the Karl Marx School of Influencing People and Winning Friends is not far behind.
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I boil it down pretty simple.
License = Privilege. Privilege does not equal a Right. Privileges can be taken away, Rights cannot (except by force).
Here we are divided into the OC and CCW camps, when in reality these are, and should, RIGHTS. We should all be fighting for the same thing here. We are very close to going from Rights to Privileges in this country with gun ownership.
I know, wasted breath, but it felt good anyway.
-Bidah
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Bidah,
I am not divided on open or concealed. I like both.
What I don't like is Deputy Dawg deciding to point his piece at me yelling 'get down' just because I am exorcising my rights. If he wants to know something about me he can politely ask. If he is unwilling to do this then he needs to get a new job.
If he suspects a bad outcome then he can call in a back up to WATCH from a safer distance, ready to act IF necessary. If said officer finds this to much of a hassle then once again he needs to find a new job.
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Just my opinion, but shouldn't LEO's treat everyone as if they are armed.
Open carry just makes the officers job a little easier, as in he knows that a weapon is present and doesn't
need to second guess.
As Dalton would say,"Be polite, until it's time to not be polite". (Damn movie quotes again) ::)
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That was more general than aimed at you Haz. I fully understand your position, and I am in agreement with you. I could write a much longer version, but in the end I just boiled it down to that. One side of me has my dander up for what he said, and the other side is disgusted with what supposedly 2A supporters are doing or NOT doing. You know me, Mr. quiet usually, but I have a burr today... Must be 'cause I am in D.C. currently.
-Bidah
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That was more general than aimed at you Haz. I fully understand your position, and I am in agreement with you. I could write a much longer version, but in the end I just boiled it down to that. One side of me has my dander up for what he said, and the other side is disgusted with what supposedly 2A supporters are doing or NOT doing. You know me, Mr. quiet usually, but I have a burr today... Must be 'cause I am in D.C. currently.
-Bidah
In DC! Who did you p1$$ off to get sent there?
;D
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I have a very good friend of mine that is a Police officer. He has told me many times that he does not have to like a law he just has to enforce it. This Police Cheif is not enforcing the law he is MAKING THE LAW! This guy is acting way beyond his authority. I hope that someone sues the crap out of him personaly and also the City.
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This thread has opened up for so many areas of discussion. However, I can't get out of my mind asking how can a Chief of Police create or ignore law? I'm not calling for revolt ... or maybe I am, but isn't this the abuse of office and power that the Founding Fathers were concerned about?
Activist judges and now activist chief. Where does the City Attorney stand on this, and what would happen if someone openly challenged the Chief by carrying openly, peacefully being arrested, and filing a lawsuit against the City?
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JPFO is already part of a Federal lawsuit against the city, chief, and 2 P.O.'s for just this very thing.
-Bidah
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JPFO is already part of a Federal lawsuit against the city, chief, and 2 P.O.'s for just this very thing.
-Bidah
Good ! This Chief is a bully who needs a beating.