The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: PegLeg45 on April 24, 2009, 08:58:50 PM
-
Petraeus: Shippers should consider armed guards
By LARA JAKES, Associated Press Writer Lara Jakes, Associated Press Writer – 1 hr 11 mins ago
WASHINGTON – The global shipping industry should consider placing armed guards on its boats to ward off pirates who have become increasingly violent, the U.S. military commander who oversees the African coastline said Friday. Gen. David Petraeus told a House committee Friday that just trying to outrun or block pirates from boarding cargo ships isn't enough to deter sea bandits off the Somali coast who are becoming more aggressive.
But the shipping industry has resisted arming their boats, which would deny them port in some nations.
Petraeus said defensive preparations short of armed guards "can work. You can have water hoses and others that can make it more difficult," Petraeus told a House Appropriations subcommittee.
But in a wry tone, he added: "It's tough to be on the end of a water hose if the other guy is on the end of an RPG. So you've got to think your way though that calculation as well."
An RPG is a rocket-propelled grenade launcher.
Petraeus said the Navy would continue to patrol the region, but added that some shippers in the past hadn't taken even basic steps to avoid pirates.
"We started off by saying, 'If you just speed up, when the pirates approach you that will help. If you take evasive action, that's even better. And if you unbolt the ladder that allows the pirates to climb onto your ship before you set sail, you get extra credit for that,'" Petraeus said. "These were not being taken before."
Joe Cox, president of the Chamber of Shipping of America, cautioned that deploying armed guards aboard cargo ships could escalate violence if pirates expect a gunfight.
"If you asked us two weeks ago, we would say, 'No guns on ships,'" Cox said Friday. "Now the reaction is, 'Let's talk.' That's not a ringing endorsement of going in that direction. But we know, under the current circumstances, something has to be done."
The Washington-based trade association represents 32 shipping companies.
Cox also called on the government to remain committed to securing the high seas. "We don't want them to abrogate the responsibility," he said.
Pirates have hijacked more than 100 ships off the Somali coast over the last year, including one in a dramatic standoff between pirates and the U.S. Navy earlier this month in the Indian Ocean. A U.S. sea captain was held hostage for five days before three of his captors were shot and killed by Navy SEALS. A fourth pirate is now being held in New York, where he awaits prosecution.
Naval forces from several nations patrol the waters that Petraeus described as many times the size of Texas. But he said there is no way for any military to be able to safeguard all commercial ships that ply those waters.
The region is one of the world's most crucial shipping lanes, with oil vessels and other merchant ships carrying billions of dollars worth of cargo. Authorities say pirates are well aware that ship owners have been willing to pay an average of $2 million ransom for each seized ship.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090424/ap_on_go_co/us_us_piracy
-
Just for an instant I thought it said Strippers should consider armed guards. The may be a good idea too.
-
Just for an instant I thought it said Strippers should consider armed guards. The may be a good idea too.
They are at a disadvantage when carrying concealed.
FQ13
-
Evasive maneuvers are tough in a tanker/freighter., its like a school bus with flat tires. Armed protection is the way to go. Blackwater Inc,. has something in the works with an old vessel called the Olympic. Also has offered armed squads for any ship that wants it.
If ports of call won;t accept armed vessels, do business at different ports. OR charge a fee to deliver goods to a "port of risk"
The world commerce market better step up, a lawless cesspool of a nation( Somalia ) dictating maritime commerce through the Gulf of Aden?
Petraeus is a military man, if attacked or threatened, FIGHT THE **** BACK! Sounds great to me....
-
They are at a disadvantage when carrying concealed.
FQ13
I prefer when they open carry ;)
-
Evasive maneuvers are tough in a tanker/freighter., its like a school bus with flat tires. Armed protection is the way to go. Blackwater Inc,. has something in the works with an old vessel called the Olympic. Also has offered armed squads for any ship that wants it.
If ports of call won;t accept armed vessels, do business at different ports. OR charge a fee to deliver goods to a "port of risk"
The world commerce market better step up, a lawless cesspool of a nation( Somalia ) dictating maritime commerce through the Gulf of Aden?
Petraeus is a military man, if attacked or threatened, FIGHT THE **** BACK! Sounds great to me....
We don't even let armed ships come into ports( unless they are US citz, even then there are bunch of restrictions)
in every single trainign corse I had in the USCG, they all stress we looked for 5 things.
1drugs
2money
3plants/animals
4guns/weapons
5people
with drugs being number 1, guns/weapons being number 2 and 3 being people.
-
from TAB
We don't even let armed ships come into ports( unless they are US citz, even then there are bunch of restrictions)
in every single trainign corse I had in the USCG, they all stress we looked for 5 things.
1drugs
2money
3plants/animals
4guns/weapons
5people
with drugs being number 1, guns/weapons being number 2 and 3 being people.
You and the Shipping companies will need cash on hand for that mindset, its called:
PAYING RANSOM TO PUNK ASS THUG PIRATE WANNABE'S
-
no, its called getting sniped from long range ;D
We really need to start the practice of hanging pirates. Try them right as they are captured, then hang them on the ship that captured them. it worked great in the past.
-
We don't even let armed ships come into ports( unless they are US citz, even then there are bunch of restrictions)
in every single trainign corse I had in the USCG, they all stress we looked for 5 things.
1drugs
2money
3plants/animals
4guns/weapons
5people
with drugs being number 1, guns/weapons being number 2 and 3 being people.
This seems like something could be easily fixed at the UN in about a week. Just require that while in port they declared inventoried and kept in a safe under a customs label until the ship leaves. Its no different than flying through Heathrow with rifles on your way to Kenya, a PITA but legal and doable.
FQ13
-
Trust me, it will never happend.( atleast not in our life times) The guns you need to defend yourself against priate effectively start at a mounted 30 cal machine gun, a m2 would be better. You have to understand, once your boarded, your screwed. You need to take them out at range. thier only real threat is a RPG, so yu need to get them before they get in RPG range. Non miltary ships can't take a hit from from a RPG, you would be shocked at the condition some of these ships are in. They are litterly ran til they are no longer profitable to do so. Seeing a ship that is 30 years old is not uncomon. Many ships are dry docked, cut up and extended, its cheaper to do that then it is to buy a new ship. Up until just recently it was not unherad of to have a motor running for years at a time. Its only with the new envroment regs and the price of fuel that the practice has changed. ( mainly envro regs)
-
as far as defending against the pirates effectively, any gun will keep them back. remember, they're in a little open boat and VERY exposed. they've gotta have a solid brass set to approach an armed vessel in something like that. One good rifle (remember, the ship is a much more stable platform to fire from) a couple of shotguns and a couple of handguns are that are really needed to protect a ship. firing a rifle at them before they get within rpg range I'm sure will slow them down. nothing for them to hide behind, nowhere to run to, who in their right mind would approach? of course, firearms are useless if the crew is complacent and does not keep a good watch for suspicious vessels.
-
Trust me, it will never happend.( atleast not in our life times) The guns you need to defend yourself against priate effectively start at a mounted 30 cal machine gun, a m2 would be better. You have to understand, once your boarded, your screwed.
I like your idea of the .50 cal. better. That would give them a jar of whoop ass! :-X
-
as far as defending against the pirates effectively, any gun will keep them back. remember, they're in a little open boat and VERY exposed. they've gotta have a solid brass set to approach an armed vessel in something like that. One good rifle (remember, the ship is a much more stable platform to fire from) a couple of shotguns and a couple of handguns are that are really needed to protect a ship. firing a rifle at them before they get within rpg range I'm sure will slow them down. nothing for them to hide behind, nowhere to run to, who in their right mind would approach? of course, firearms are useless if the crew is complacent and does not keep a good watch for suspicious vessels.
You clearly have never tried to fire a weapon ship to ship. even hitting the other ship with a mounted machine gun is not a easy task, let alone trying to hit a single person on it from a shoulder fired weapon.
-
Those .30 cal mini guns don't require advanced marksmanship, you can walk the "splashes" right to the target.
Dillon AeroMini-Gun
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oATVz5cUJTY&feature=related
More affordable than ransom, can have quick release pins from the deck to be stowed in the ships safe, and only used in "troubled waters".
How much are Navy Escorts? When The ships can have 2 of these, and fight the hell back.
-
You clearly have never tried to fire a weapon ship to ship. even hitting the other ship with a mounted machine gun is not a easy task, let alone trying to hit a single person on it from a shoulder fired weapon.
TAB, You are a dumb donkey, Deepwater JUST GOT OFF a ship that had arms aboard.
For some one who was in the CG you sure come up with some ignorant crap, but then you were an Ensign so I guess that explains it. I'll put it in little words for you, Bang, hole in boat, WATER starts coming in, (Remember that little detail from your Seamanship classes, water around boat GOOD, water IN boat, BAD ) More Bangs, more holes, more water in boat (remember, that's a BAD thing) I do not care how heavily you are armed, you are no threat when you are treading water.
-
TAB, You are a dumb donkey, Deepwater JUST GOT OFF a ship that had arms aboard.
For some one who was in the CG you sure come up with some ignorant crap, but then you were an Ensign so I guess that explains it. I'll put it in little words for you, Bang, hole in boat, WATER starts coming in, (Remember that little detail from your Seamanship classes, water around boat GOOD, water IN boat, BAD ) More Bangs, more holes, more water in boat (remember, that's a BAD thing) I do not care how heavily you are armed, you are no threat when you are treading water.
yes every one in the navy knows how to shoot a gun at a ship at 800 yds in rough sees... they are so good they use 22s and open sites. Try it some time, you will understand.
Let me give you a idea of what its like to hit a small boat at range 25' ish boat at 800 yards is llike a clay bird at 100. very easy to hit when your standing still, now try walking and hitting it. Then try riding in the back of a truck doing 15 knots( almost 17 mph)
I was never a ensign, I was a petty officer until I got my commission, then I was a LTJG
-
There are two times when having RPG's and AK's with ammo is BAD:
When you are on FIRE,
When you are DROWNING.
If the crew of the Alabama even had access to small arms AFTER being boarded, with training, and even voluntary participation in a Ship's Defense Program, it might have changed the whole thing.
Keyword might. But I know there are crews that would have loved to have something..
-
yes every one in the navy knows how to shoot a gun at a ship at 800 yds in rough sees... they are so good they use 22s and open sites. Try it some time, you will understand.
Let me give you a idea of what its like to hit a small boat at range 25' ish boat at 800 yards is llike a clay bird at 100. very easy to hit when your standing still, now try walking and hitting it. Then try riding in the back of a truck doing 15 knots( almost 17 mph)
I was never a ensign, I was a petty officer until I got my commission, then I was a LTJG
I was a Marine on Float, I HAVE tried asshat, Just like just about every other Marine on here. Ammo boxes at unknown ranges.
"I was never a ensign, I was a petty officer until I got my commission, then I was a LTJG"
Even worse, you got rank with out having it pointed out to you that O-1 and O-2 are like whale crap.
-
Leaving marksmanship aside, if they'r dumb enough to come in one boat, the maximum point of vulnerablty is when they're along side and boarding, 40 feet below deck level. A grade or two lobbed over the side from a prone position would get their attention. I can't see frag penetrating a ships hull.
FQ13
-
Even a "flash bang" would be good for laughs. ;D
-
Leaving marksmanship aside, if they'r dumb enough to come in one boat, the maximum point of vulnerablty is when they're along side and boarding, 40 feet below deck level. A grade or two lobbed over the side from a prone position would get their attention. I can't see frag penetrating a ships hull.
FQ13
Find out how far it is to the water and tie a rope of appropriate length to a riot grenade and pop it right in their faces. Or you could just get a propane turkey fryer out on deck and kick that sumbitch over the side.
-
You clearly have never tried to fire a weapon ship to ship. even hitting the other ship with a mounted machine gun is not a easy task, let alone trying to hit a single person on it from a shoulder fired weapon.
sounds like you expect them to come during VERY rough weather. a ship is much more stable to fire from. One ship I was on had a couple of air guns for playing while doing long sea passages (good clean fun) and yes we would shoot at anything we could. it's not that hard to do from a SHIP. also, they have to come alongside to get aboard, rough weather would do them no good. besides we're talking about the Guf of Aden the entrance to the red sea. it's a damn mill pond there. just like the other piracy hot spots in the world, Malacca etc..
how about just shooting the first one to try and climb over the rail? his body falling back into the boat oughta be a good deterent ;D
-
I guess you could just wait for them to come along side and just drop bowling balls down on them......... ;D
It'd be much cheaper, too. ;D
-
Let's see... insurance companies charge more for a ship with an armed crew and some ports won't let you dock with an armed crew.
Solution is arm the crew, install a hidden locker for the weapons (for use when coming into 'some' ports) and drink a big cup of STFU about your capabilities. Concealed is concealed, no one needs to know. If you do need to defend yourself, who's going to report the pirates missing?
-
Let's see... insurance companies charge more for a ship with an armed crew and some ports won't let you dock with an armed crew.
Solution is arm the crew, install a hidden locker for the weapons (for use when coming into 'some'99.9999% ports) and drink a big cup of STFU about your capabilities. Concealed is concealed, no one needs to know. If you do need to defend yourself, who's going to report the pirates missing?
You would be amazed at what has been found in ships and where its been found. Lots of stuff can and does get thru, but I've seen pictures of hiding places that will just make you scratch your head as to how they ever found them. unless you weld it shut, chances are good it will be found at some point.
-
Gee, armed guards DOES work...what a novel idea ! ;D
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090426/ap_on_re_af/piracy
Cruise ship fends off pirate attack with gunfire
By RUKMINI CALLIMACHI AND NICOLE WINFIELD, Associated Press Writer Rukmini Callimachi And Nicole Winfield, Associated Press Writer
Sun Apr 26, 2:44 pm ET
NAIROBI, Kenya – The small white skiff approached the Italian cruise ship Melody after dinnertime as it sailed north of the Seychelles, the pirates firing wildly toward the 1,500 passengers and crew on board.
What the pirates didn't expect was that, in the darkness, the crew would fire back.
In a new twist to the increasing scourge of Somali pirate hijackings, the private Israeli security forces aboard the MSC Cruises ocean liner fired on the pirates Saturday with pistols and water hoses, preventing them from clambering aboard, the company's director Domenico Pellegrino said.
"It was an emergency operation," Pellegrino told The Associated Press. "They didn't expect such a quick response. They were surprised."
Passengers were ordered to return to their cabins and the lights on deck were switched off. The massive vessel then sailed on in darkness, eventually escorted by a Spanish warship to make sure it made it to its next port.