The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: ericire12 on April 30, 2009, 08:31:58 AM
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http://www.ammoland.com/2009/04/29/the-shotgun-is-the-most-neglected-weapon-in-our-arsenal/
Berryville, AR - -(AmmoLand.com)- Have you been to your local sporting goods or gunshop lately? Have you tried to find 5.56 or 9mm ammunition? Likely it was a frustrating experience.
My local WalMart who normally has a fairly well stocked sporting goods section now has bare shelf space where once was a wide variety of ammunition. Management confirms that the warehouses are empty and that what little does come in is allocated to several stores in the region so everyone gets a little.
If WalMart, the nations largest ammo retailer is in this fix what does that say for the small Mom and Pop gunshops? The frenzy that is driving this shortage is not likely to get better in the near future either.
The one thing that is available however, at least at present is shotshells. The shotgun is one of the most neglected weapons in our arsenal of defensive firearms.
We think of the Carbine and Pistol as being more fun or sexy to shoot and tend to leave the scattergun at home when range time comes around. With the price of rifle ammo skyrocketing many shooters are forced to cut way back on their consumption. I was used to shooting a couple hundred rounds of 5.56 a week and now only shoot around fifty in carefully selected drills designed to get the most out of my training.
Many trainers are seeing attendance drop and classes not filling due to the rising costs and availability of ammo.
Back to the shotgun….., at least for now we should take the opportunity to stock up on training ammo and dust off the shotguns and get back up to speed on this very versatile tool.
Think about it, the shotgun from the days of Leonardo DaVinci has fed our families, patrolled our streets, defended our homes, and fought our wars for hundreds of years virtually unchanged in concept of a multiple projectile weapon.
Given the wide variety of ammunition available, the typical defensive shotgun can do a fine job either protecting the homefront or putting food on the table. I feel that the best training ammo is birdshot either 7 ½ or 8 shot. This can also be used for small game so putting away a goodly supply will serve you well.
At this time it is still found at decent prices as all the manufactures have promotional ammo for sale in bulk. This could change at any time so if you are even remotely thinking of buying a shotgun for defensive use you should act now and stock up.
Another consideration is politically, the shotgun will probably be the last weapon to be regulated if another AWB should take effect. So take advantage of the chance to get the scattergun to the range.
Rob Haught:
Veteran Law Enforcement Officer
Firearms Trainer for civilian, law enforcement and military
IDPA National Champion
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I was totally think the same thing, in fact, I've been researching a shot gun build to compete for the role of an AR. When you think about it, a 8 round shotgun can put down more lead in a shorter time than any AR15, now how a shotgun compares to an AR in delivering that lead is up for debate, but I don't think that a shotgun would pursue the same role as an AR to begin with. But you take a Remington 870, Mesa Tactical sight and shell rail, and your choice of holographic sights and you've got quick on target, 12 pellet, or 1.5 oz slug monster. But again, I understand that the delivery of those rounds is much different than a rifle or carbine. But if you fight is 75 yards or closer, why not?
P.S. at Wal Mart last night, Winchester Super X slugs 5 rounds $3.17.
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1100&1187+1
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1100&1187+1
I've never really looked at the semi auto shotguns. Ever sense I was little my old man always told me never to get one, to always go with pump action. Maybe he's old school, but he has always slammed them for their lack of reliability. Then again, he's LE and all they've only ever carried 870's. A person can get pretty quick with a pump action.
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I've never really looked at the semi auto shotguns. Ever sense I was little my old man always told me never to get one, to always go with pump action. Maybe he's old school, but he has always slammed them for their lack of reliability. Then again, he's LE and all they've only ever carried 870's. Are person can get pretty quick with a pump action.
The reliability prejudice is as obsolete with shotguns as with rifles and pistols. HOWEVER, they do require a certain level of pressure to function reliably that may not be provided by specialized munitions such as bean bags that present no problem with pump guns.
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Prejudice is hard to shake! I hunted with my uncles and used their guns - mostly Ithica 37. Their words were always slamming the unreliability of semi-autos in the field. They worked fine on the range, but take them in the dusty field or sleeting blind and you were in for trouble. And, don't even ask about the cleaning of the little gas ports.
Today's semi-autos are a different breed, but I am still slow to switch. I do have a couple Benellis. I was sold on them by the reliability claims by many owners that I know use their guns on the edge of abuse - that by the way is my way of using a gun. I want a tool I can take out and use for its intended purpose without pampering it. Benelli has only let me down once, and that was at the end of a long dusty day in Montana. I mistakingly over oiled it in the morning, the oil collected dust, and it jammed. I put the butt on the ground, used my foot to open the action, and poured what was left of the coffee down the muzzle. A quick blast of WD-40, and away we went. That evening I stripped it down, dried, cleaned and SPARINGLY oiled, and it has never acted up again.
By the way, I have jammed my pumps on sleet filled mornings in the blind also, and a long day of hunting that involves many load and unload cycles will also jam a pump with plastic shavings.
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Not in mine...I posted up for home defense shotgun advice. Guess what? I have a 870 Wingmaster in the safe. Swap out the vent rib 28" barrel and stock forearm with a new 18" barrel, mag extender, tactical forearm, sidesaddle, and Viola! Home defense shotgun for less than $200. I have a few hundred shells of 2 3/4 12ga and now my safe room has it's artillery piece. And there is still lots of ammo out there locally.
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I have several 1100 they range from the 60s to modern production. The only probs I have had were do to lack of maintance( AKA cleaning) those only come up every once in a blue moon, normally have sveral thousnad rounds between cleaning of the gast system.
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My Benelli M1 has never acted up. Luckily, even with light loads.
At last months pistol competition, we had 2 stages that utilized shotguns with slugs. A good number of the guys with pumps had problems with short-stroking as I've mentioned. Some were cops. A couple of guys had problems with forgetting they hadn't racked a round, but pulled the trigger anyway. Under pressure, the pump gun was very reliable, the users weren't. Again, this included cops and retired cops.
About half of the users were using Semi-autos of all types. Among them, there was only one problem and that was a newer Benelli with a low-recoil round.
The shotgun has become my number one home gun, but with primarily birdshot with 2 rounds of 00 at the end. Has anyone seen the Best Defense outtake that was posted, where Rob fired birdshot through the simulated walls? Great stuff! Does anyone have the link to those videos?
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I found it.
http://www.downrange.tv/bestdefense/wall-penetration.htm (http://www.downrange.tv/bestdefense/wall-penetration.htm)
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The beneli is also the hardest kicking auto in current production.
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A good old, plain-Jane shotgun is an awesome weapon. Pump action guns used by Americans in WW1, were thought by the Germans, of all people, to be cruel and inhumane weapons. That by the same folks who were using mustard gas at the same time.
Clint Smith demonstrates that in the hands of someone who has a combat mind-set and a little practice, even a single barrel, break open shotgun can be an effective weapon. http://uk.truveo.com/Defensive-Shotgun/id/1432387776
All guns really are, are launchers for projectiles. It makes absolutely no difference what a launcher looks like, as long as you know how to run the gun that you have. We can all spend lots of dollars on the latest, high-speed, low drag, super "tactical" whiz-bang blaster, when we can do the same things with stuff we already may have. Who says a hunting gun has to be just for hunting? Unless you are scheduled for the finals of the Bianchi Cup, or are being deployed to Iraq soon, the old stuff can work just as well for what you need. By all means buy what you want. That is the capitalist way of doing things, it keeps the gun companies in business and it's your money. At the end of the day, the bad guy will not care that he was shot using the latest black "tactical" accessory platform on the market with a gun attched to it.
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The beneli is also the hardest kicking auto in current production.
That hard kick is what keeps it reliable. Because they aren't gas operated, they stay really clean too. I do like an 11-87 though - soft enough for my wife to shoot.
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there are other models out there that are recoil operated( yes the beneli is recoil operatored... don't beleave thier hype)
Even a old browning auto 5( hump back) kicks less then a beneli
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Rem. 870 x 2
Red Lable 12 ga O/U
Dankin Arms 12 ga S/S
Mule Kicking Iver Johnson Single Shot 12 ga.
The Rem. 870 12 ga Express gets a lot of use, far from neglected. 8)
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The only ammo I tried in my 1100 that won't cycle is rubber buckshot. I haven't tried rubber slugs but they probably won't work the action either. Any load of lead ammo will work just fine even target loads, and reduced recoil slugs and buckshot. The 18" barrel that used to be 28" is a lot handier now.
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OH! THE SHAME!
I hang may head in utter embarrassment as I have criminally neglected my Mossberg 500A, She stands in the closet, day after day, night after night, month after month,. while I take my AR, my Tikka T3, my Savage Mod 25, my CZ 452 out to range week after week. I carefully hand craft ammo for my other guns. Taking great care and pain to select the proper bullet. So carefully measure and shape the brass. Selecting only be best powder and metering it out in tenths of a grain. Loving storing that ammo in specially designed boxes all clearly labeled with their date & pertinent data. For the Mossberg it's, "HEY, what's on sale?" 2-3/4? 3"? I don't care. Gi'me some with tiny shot and some with that big shot. 7-1/2 or 9? Either will do. Double ought sound cool, so gi'me some of that. When did I buy that ammo? Last month? Last decade? Last century? Eh...what's the diff? Dump it all in a range bag. Stuff it in magazine. Rack the slide and blast away. It'll take anything.
Oh how I'm amazed the Mossberg hasn't run off. Joined Hell's Angels. Or gone to a nunnery. I've mistreated and neglected her so. But like my dog. When I call. When it's time for action. She'll respond. She's like that. Maybe I'll take her out tomorrow. Pick out some quality Winchester hulls. Put the longer barrel on 'er. Have the guy sling a few skeet out at the horizon. Yep. I'll make it up to 'er......tomorrow.
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from alfsauve,,,,
Oh how I'm amazed the Mossberg hasn't run off. Joined Hell's Angels. Or gone to a nunnery. I've mistreated and neglected her so. But like my dog. When I call. When it's time for action. She'll respond. She's like that. Maybe I'll take her out tomorrow. Pick out some quality Winchester hulls. Put the longer barrel on 'er. Have the guy sling a few skeet out at the horizon. Yep. I'll make it up to 'er......tomorrow.
It's always the quiet ones.
The latest XD, M+P, "G" gun, 1911's, and the rifles of all shapes and sizes get all the limelight.
But in a solitary, lonely, and quietly kind of way, the shotgun stays in the closet, in the safe, patiently waiting........
Whether semi-auto, or pump, single/double barrels ,new, granddads, doesn't matter, there it stays. Well, it's time for the "closet" shotgun lovers to come out!
Something about it makes it worth having at least one in any SD or collection. They work and hit hard, versatile for dove, squirrel, turkey, rabbit, hogs, gator, deer, trucks, name it...., if its in range,it will get thumped hard, let alone anything with two legs.
Make it up to her alf,,,,she's still family. Plus, they make a great "firewall".
(http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm182/twyacht/DSC00476.jpg)
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I've been neglecting my 20 gauge Mossberg bolt-action. I don't recall shooting it since my mom gave it to me.
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I just shot my 500 Breacher tonight at the range with #1 buck and it was an impressive show. Those sixteen (16) thirty (.30) caliber pellets made a nice pattern on my IDPA target at seven (7) yards. It was total destruction at its finest!
I highly recommend the Remington Express #1B loads for self defense; which the recommendation originated from Dr. Fackler...... You can get them at Natchez: http://www.natchezss.com/Ammo.cfm?contentID=productDetail&prodID=RT20624&prodTitle=EXPRSS%20BUCKSHT%20LOAD%2012%202-3%2F4%20%231 (http://www.natchezss.com/Ammo.cfm?contentID=productDetail&prodID=RT20624&prodTitle=EXPRSS%20BUCKSHT%20LOAD%2012%202-3%2F4%20%231)
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I feel better now that all this is in the open, like the guilt of a thousand ARs and Mini 14s has been lifted. ;D
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there are other models out there that are recoil operated( yes the beneli is recoil operatored... don't beleave thier hype)
Even a old browning auto 5( hump back) kicks less then a beneli
What's wrong with "kick"? I'm big enough that some recoil isn't bad. When adrenaline is going, I don't feel it at all (until the next day).
I will say that there is a shotgun that I had that kicked harder than the Benelli M1. That distinction would go to the featherweight Beretta 1201 FP. It was still a great shotgun, even though she was ugly. That shotgun would eat shells all day. I would have kept it, if I knew they would be discontinued. I got it cheap and sold it for more.
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fallow up shots. very important when it coes to SD. wolfs tend to roam in packs.
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Went in wally world today and the only thing they had (other than a few rifle calibers) was Winchester 12ga. shells...and plenty of them. Right at $60 a case.
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fallow up shots. very important when it coes to SD. wolfs tend to roam in packs.
Benellis are pretty fast. Maybe the recoil isn't quite as bad as you think it is. All of our guys on inertia recoil shotguns were really fast. One of the Benelli user's split times were the fastest in the group.
Went in wally world today and the only thing they had (other than a few rifle calibers) was Winchester 12ga. shells...and plenty of them. Right at $60 a case.
The Walmarts around here don't carry handgun cartridges, but 100 12ga. shell was $22 when I went in the other day.
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Took her out last week. A few dozen rounds, some bird shot, some buck shot. All's well. We've restored out relationship.
Now she's back home resting comfortably until needed.
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh20/alfsauve/Firearms/IMG_1929.jpg)
Actually, I'm going to get some wall hangers and hang her inside the closet above the door. Not readily visible, but readily accessible.
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RE: Recoil, I'd agree that the Benelli is a thumper, but it's hard to beat the old model Remington ll-87 semis with the reciprocating barrel. It was like trying to shoot a jackhammer. I had one I cut down (with a Poly-Choke, no less) for self-defense use back in the 1970s. Using the high powered buckshot or slugs that were available at the time, it was a toss-up wether to shoot the miscreant or just hand him the shotgun and dare him to shoot me.
Rob H.'s counterintuitive method of using the weak hand to push forward hard on the forearm while plulling the gun to the shoulder with the strong hand (sort of a reverse Weaver) takes a little sting out of a short-barreled 12 gauge. That's how I shoot my looney Serbu Super Shorty.
Michael B
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..... counterintuitive method of using the weak hand to push forward hard on the forearm while pulling the gun to the shoulder with the strong hand.
Didn't Herb Parsons pioneer that technique with the Thompson .45. back in the '40s-'50s? The Army refused to teach the technique even though Herb could keep the Thompson on target while firing full auto.
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The hardest kicking shotgun I can ever remember having the misfortune of touching off was my mom's uncle's SxS dbl 10-gauge that he let me shoot when I was about 13, after a couple of years of begging. HOLY SHIT!!! The damn thing doubled on me, to boot. I think my right shoulder ended up in a different zip code!!
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My best friend's dad from my youth had an 8 gauge, single shot break action from circa ?????, old gun....
Damn near broke my collarbone with it...I was about 13-14 at the time.
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The hardest kicking shotgun I can ever remember having the misfortune of touching off was my mom's uncle's SxS dbl 10-gauge that he let me shoot when I was about 13, after a couple of years of begging. HOLY SHIT!!! The damn thing doubled on me, to boot. I think my right shoulder ended up in a different zip code!!
That's funny. My dad would use one goose hunting, never could hit anything unless he pulled both barrels at the same time. Goose hunting wasn't a favorite after that. ;)
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Alf...yes, that is the same as the Parsons technique with a Thompson. And to prove that nothing ever changes, I've had instructors tell me Rob's technique shouldn't be taught because it was "inconsistent" with current thinking...
Man, I'd LOVE to have an 8-gauge double like the one they cobbled up for the movie APPALOOSA...of course the movie gun was a 12 gauge fitted with barrels to look like an 8 bore, but wouldn't that just rock? I wouldn't mind having an old Ithaca Mag-10 Roadblocker 10 gauge...by golly, THAT was a gun! Nothing succeeds like excess!
Michael B
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One of the local PDs just went back to 870s from Benellis. The guys on the road like the Benellis, but one guy with a little pull in the department decided they were too complicated. The road officers aren't to happy to be going back to 870s. To top it off, it sounds like they about gave them away on the trade in.
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I took Fuzzdaddy's lead and watched the penetration test. That was pretty informative.
I'd like to see them repeat it with 4" wall insullation and studs 16" apart. The sheet rock looses pockets of compound with each shot so it weakens the rock a little. I think the drill should be construction as mentioned with walls 10 and 35 feet apart and some outdoor siding like Hardiplank at the end of the range. In my house I still have a .45 Cor Bon that didn't make it through that stuff. ;D The shotgun they're using is a Fabarms FP6, nice gun with tri-bore, chokes and a nice long forend for a close grip - very under rated, and discontinued. Anyway I appreciated the link.