The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: twyacht on May 03, 2009, 08:45:13 PM
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Just curious for the members in the Northern Plains, and Rockies that know more than I about this animal.
For myself, I remember the Florida Gator Ban, strict rules for hunting, tags etc,...
I kinda like the Gray Wolf, big, bad, and been part of the food chain for a long time. What effect does this have on those with cattle, other livestock, for you?
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hufOmhn7Y6MQrv14iKIDnSfDaY5AD97UUEKG3
Wolves no longer protected in Northern Rockies
By MATTHEW BROWN – 6 hours ago
BILLINGS, Mont. (AP) — Wolves in parts of the Northern Rockies and the Great Lakes region come off the endangered species list on Monday, opening them to public hunts in some states for the first time in decades.
Federal officials say the population of gray wolves in those areas has recovered and is large enough to survive on its own. The animals were listed as endangered in 1974, after they had been wiped out across the lower 48 states by hunting and government-sponsored poisoning.
"We've exceeded our recovery goals for nine consecutive years, and we fully expect those trends will continue," said Seth Willey, regional recovery coordinator for the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service in Denver.
With the delisting, state wildlife agencies will have full control over the animals. States such as Idaho and Montana plan to resume hunting the animals this fall, but no hunting has been proposed in the Great Lakes region.
Ranchers and livestock groups, particularly in the Rockies, have pushed to strip the endangered status in hopes that hunting will keep the population in check.
About 300 wolves in Wyoming will remain on the list because the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service rejected the state's plan for a "predator zone" where wolves could be shot on sight. Wyoming Gov. Dave Freudenthal and a coalition of livestock and hunting groups have announced a lawsuit against the federal government over the decision.
Freudenthal, a Democrat, claimed "political expediency" was behind the rejection of his state's wolf plan.
Wolves were taken off the endangered list in the Northern Rockies — including Wyoming — for about five months last year. After environmentalists sued, a federal judge in Montana restored the protections and cited Wyoming's predator zone as a main reason. In the Great Lakes, the animal was off the list beginning in 2007 until a judge in Washington last September ordered them protected again.
Environmental and animal rights groups have also said they planned to sue over the delisting, claiming that there are still not enough wolves to guarantee their survival. The groups point to Idaho's plan to kill up to 100 wolves believed to have killed elk.
"We understand that hunting is part of wildlife policy in the West," said Anne Carlson with the Western Wolf Coalition. "(But) wolves should be managed like native wildlife and not as pests to be exterminated."
The delisting review began under the administration of President George W. Bush and the proposal was upheld by President Barack Obama's administration after an internal review. In a recent letter to several members of Congress, Interior Secretary Ken Salazar wrote that he was "confident that science justifies the delisting of the gray wolf."
Willey said his agency projected there would be between 973 and 1302 wolves in the Northern Rockies under state management, a number well above the 300 wolves set as the original benchmark for the animal's recovery.
More than 1,300 wolves roam the mountains of Montana and Idaho and an estimated 4,000 live in Michigan, Wisconsin and Minnesota.
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I'm with you on this. As a native Floridian, I root for the native wildlife. We've lost too many and too much to over development, golf courses, exotic species and the like. A bald eagle nests in my dad's yard just outside of the Big Cypress Preserve in the Glades and you can't swing a Yankee without hitting a gator. (I will get that image out of my head before my mind goes to a disturbing, but happy, place). I am delighted the wolf is back as they have more of a right to be here than we do. That being said, if they are threatening people's live stock on private land (NOT public BLM land, because I think if you lease taxpayer subsidized public land you get the critters that go with it), folks should be able to deal with the problem. (again, on land I pay for, suck it up). As far as hunting, the state wildlife commisions are in the best position to know whether its sustainable or not. Personally, I don't believe in predator hunting for sport, because the that's not their place in the food chain and I won't kill something I won't eat. Thats just a personal preference though, and I have zero problem with those that decide differently. As far as predator control, its not sport but work, and I have killed a few coyotes for a friend that was losing pen raised quail in Texas. All in all, I'm pro-wolf and oppose poison, traps and areial hunting,but fair chase should be up to the states to permit or not based on local data.
FQ13
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Being from NJ my perspective is definitely "outsider" but I think it's a really good thing when any species come back. Lord knows we could use a few wolves here in NJ to eat some of the deer that are worse than pidgeons in Central Park. Since the coyotes have developed here the small irritating animals (coons, skunks, opossum,etc) are much more manageable. Of course, so are the small, fluffy pets...we lose a few of them too.
Now black bear are a problem in NW NJ- moving into the suburbs and the leftist govt won't allow a hunt. Be thankful for ANY wildlife management program that works. For every one it seems like there are ten that don't.
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I think wolf and grizzly should both taken off the endangered list in thoughs areas where thier numbers are in need of being kept in check.
Colorado no longer has trapping >:( Grew up a traper, I am a firm believer in it!! It's needed to keep numbers manageable. Coyotes,fox,coons,skunk,muskrats are getting out of control.
The wolf and the grizzly will keep balance in the ecosystem. BALANCE!!
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Hey, great I've been delisted......wait a minute!
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Hey, great I've been delisted......wait a minute!
Don't worry, we'll give you a head start. ;D
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Don't worry, we'll give you a head start. ;D
At which point, we release Sarah Palin! You are soooooo screwed. ;D
FQ13
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At which point, we release Sarah Palin! You are soooooo screwed. ;D
FQ13
Sarah Palin........screwed............oh, forget it.....I'll just head to the corner. ;)
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Let me give you an insiders view. I was and continue to be against the reintroduction plan. Here's why. Wyoming, Montana, and Idaho weren't given a say in the process. It was decided by the federal government, and these states were simply told "You are getting the wolves, and YOU the states will now be responsible for their management." In the first year after reintroduction Wyoming lost nearly a third of it's fish and wildlife budget because of obligations it had to meet reguarding the wolves, and we've been playing catch up ever since. This has resulted in higher fees for hunting licenses and restricted access to state and BLM land because of "wolf habitat".
Secondly, the interior secretary at the time (correct me if I am wrong I believe it was Bruce Babbot) assured everyone that the wolves would remain in Yellowstone Park. We knew at the time that it was B.S. and now we are confirming it. I live about 280 miles from Yellowstone and we have had confirmed wolf sightings within a couple of miles from my house! The area I am in is one of the prime beef producing parts of the state. So when the wolves start decimating herds of cattle, the price of your steak starts going way up.
And finally, consider this, about every other year we have to track and kill a mountain lion or two, because they will come down off the top of the mountain and start prowling around the schools. It's only two elementary schools that they go to, and it's the same two every time. But, some of us here think about that and wonder how long before a wolf tries it. Then what? And don't misunderstand these schools are not on the edge of town or anything, they are right smack in the middle of very nice neighborhoods.
So there is my .02, so come to my house and berate me, but when you leave please take a wolf with you.
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But, some of us here think about that and wonder how long before a wolf tries it.
JC5123, unless the wolf is rabid that wont happen!!
Here in Colo. there have been sightings of wolves here. Which was bound to happen because of the growing numbers. I think any live stock that was lost to wolves will be rembursed for their lose.
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But, some of us here think about that and wonder how long before a wolf tries it.
JC5123, unless the wolf is rabid that wont happen!!
Here in Colo. there have been sightings of wolves here. Which was bound to happen because of the growing numbers. I think any live stock that was lost to wolves will be reimbursed for their lose.
So the mountain lions that have threatened our children were just rabid and so we can't go after them because they couldn't control themselves.
Look personally I don't like the idea of bringing the wolves back. But here is the real issue, and it's one that should be in the forefront of everyone's minds, is states rights. The federal government forced the reintroduction, and then forced the states to manage it. But then told the states HOW to manage it, but didn't do anything to offset the cost of the management.
Also, yes ranches do get reimbursed for livestock losses, FROM THE STATE. That means me. And you exactly right about growing numbers. So if you want an example of what a state managed species can do, just look at the bison populations.
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Hear in Montana the wolfs are decimating the dear and elk herds in a big way. The wolfs we have hear in NW Montana came naturally from Canada and are spreading south at an alarming rate. Just a few years ago, we were told that there were no wolves close to us. Now we have four packs within an hours drive. Go to the link of the Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks and see for yourselves how many packs we have. http://fwp.mt.gov/wildthings/wolf/population.html , click on the map and close your mouth before a fly flies in. I just hope the courts will let the hunting season start this fall. I don't mind a few wolfs around, but they do need to be managed.
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Hear in Montana the wolfs are decimating the dear and elk herds in a big way. The wolfs we have hear in NW Montana came naturally from Canada and are spreading south at an alarming rate. Just a few years ago, we were told that there were no wolves close to us. Now we have four packs within an hours drive. Go to the link of the Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks and see for yourselves how many packs we have. http://fwp.mt.gov/wildthings/wolf/population.html , click on the map and close your mouth before a fly flies in. I just hope the courts will let the hunting season start this fall. I don't mind a few wolfs around, but they do need to be managed.
Agreed.
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Hear in Montana the wolfs are decimating the dear and elk herds in a big way. The wolfs we have hear in NW Montana came naturally from Canada and are spreading south at an alarming rate. Just a few years ago, we were told that there were no wolves close to us. Now we have four packs within an hours drive. Go to the link of the Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks and see for yourselves how many packs we have. http://fwp.mt.gov/wildthings/wolf/population.html , click on the map and close your mouth before a fly flies in. I just hope the courts will let the hunting season start this fall. I don't mind a few wolfs around, but they do need to be managed.
Agree also..
Need to be managed. Balance.
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Yes, I believe it is a states rights issue, but the Federals do it anyway.
On a more personal note, we see them around the house from time to time, usually the spring and fall when they are moving around with the Elk and Deer herds. We also have Grizzly around, and had one removed from behind our house when it dined on our chickens for a few days. We also get the lions around now and again, but they have not been a bother, yet. At least in our little part of Montana, they are all doing quite well.. :)
-Bidah
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Yes, I believe it is a states rights issue, but the Federals do it anyway.
On a more personal note, we see them around the house from time to time, usually the spring and fall when they are moving around with the Elk and Deer herds. We also have Grizzly around, and had one removed from behind our house when it dined on our chickens for a few days. We also get the lions around now and again, but they have not been a bother, yet. At least in our little part of Montana, they are all doing quite well.. :)
-Bidah
Bidah, I was hoping you would weigh in this.
When things are left up to the Feds to run.... well we know how that goes ::)
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I was hunting with a friend in Saco, MT on a friends section, 1995 I think. We were told to shoot any wolves we saw, and this was before they acknowledged wolves in MT. We did spot a wolf that was deer hunting too and took some shots. Grazed him and off he went. Near Missoula up the Nine Mile has plenty to deal with. Wolves never should have been re-introduced. They are killing livestock, pets and game animals willy nilly.
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Federal intervention has been brought up several times, I think that the States should do what they need to do to take over most of the federal lands. These decisions need to be made closer to home.
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Hear in Montana the wolfs are decimating the dear and elk herds in a big way. The wolfs we have hear in NW Montana came naturally from Canada and are spreading south at an alarming rate. Just a few years ago, we were told that there were no wolves close to us. Now we have four packs within an hours drive. Go to the link of the Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks and see for yourselves how many packs we have. http://fwp.mt.gov/wildthings/wolf/population.html , click on the map and close your mouth before a fly flies in. I just hope the courts will let the hunting season start this fall. I don't mind a few wolfs around, but they do need to be managed.
Wow, that is quite amazing. For one, the population of the species has made that much of a comeback and two, they are able to track that stuff so closely.
Think I'll start praying: "I hope I don't have a tracking device in my butt. Please keep me from turning up on a statistics map."
Truly though, for humans and wolves to live together in balance, the smarter of the two needs to take steps to regulate the population of the other.
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Truly though, for humans and wolves to live together in balance, the smarter of the two needs to take steps to regulate the population of the other.
I think wolves should be reintroduced to Kalifornia, maybe they could eat some of the dumb ones.
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I think wolves should be reintroduced to Kalifornia, maybe they could eat some of the dumb ones.
Problem is most of the dumb ones stay in the cities. Its the smart ones, libs included, that appreciate camping and the outdoors. For th Darwin awards you'll have to rely on your gangbangers like the crips and MS13 , which by the way,thanks for "reintroducing" to the rest of us. ;D ;D
FQ13 (if f you're reding 1911, sorry if I am slurring Kalifornians ;))
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Ok, I know, bringing this up AGAIN! But I just received an email today from one of our friends (who will stay unnamed) a rancher, who stalked and killed this wolf after he got about 1/3 of his sheep. And for all those who think that he will be reimbursed for his loss. HE WON'T This non-native predator has become an invasive species and needs to be dealt with.
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Damn ! That IS a big one.
Thoughts ? Personally I don't eat much lamb or mutton (also non native species) I'd rather see the wolves than most of the people I know.
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Damn ! That IS a big one.
Thoughts ? Personally I don't eat much lamb or mutton (also non native species) I'd rather see the wolves than most of the people I know.
I will admit sheep and cattle are not native, but they aren't capable of eating grown men either.
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I will admit sheep and cattle are not native, but they aren't capable of eating grown men either.
That's what we need the wolves for, getting rid of evidence.
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http://www.startribune.com/local/49433357.html?elr=KArksUUUoDEy3LGDiO7aiU (http://www.startribune.com/local/49433357.html?elr=KArksUUUoDEy3LGDiO7aiU)
Ooooooops ??? Back on the list again >:(
As a former farmer that still has livestock on the yard and with many friends with livestock on their yards and on pasture, I don't care whether it is listed or not! Given the choice between a dead animal worth hundreds (and in the case of some breeding stock, thousands) lots of out of season stuff disappears. Don't know what happens to these critters, but they just are in the pasture on day and never seen again.
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I don't want to get into a pissing contest but the historical range of the Grey Wolf is nearly ALL of the continental United States with the exception of the Southeast states. How can you consider this animal "Non-Native"?
I agree, if they are doing harm to your livelyhood, by all means take care of business but they WERE here first.
Just saying! ;)
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I don't want to get into a pissing contest but the historical range of the Grey Wolf is nearly ALL of the continental United States with the exception of the Southeast states. How can you consider this animal "Non-Native"?
I agree, if they are doing harm to your livelyhood, by all means take care of business but they WERE here first.
Just saying! ;)
They weren't here a few years ago. We kinda thought we took care of this once... >:(
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What mass and length to that wolf!!! Hate to run into him and his buddies unarmed.
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I'm a big believer in proper wildlife management. That means leave it up to the states. They know when the balance is upset and when controls need to be put in place.
It sounds like the wolves are not only ravaging livestock, but that they are also taking a serious toll on native Montana deer and elk. It also sounds like the Feds reintroduction and protection of the wolves is largely to blame.
Let the states manage their own wildlife populations. Good programs keep populations healthy. Proper hunting thins deer and elk herds when food supplies are low or when populations grow too fast. You prevent starvation and promote healthier wildlife. This requires local knowledge for proper wildlife management.
Feds out and let the states take care of their own. They know best. With all of the hunting that takes place in Montana I would have to believe that the states wildlife management bureau (or whatever it's called in Montana) is well funded and more than able to handle the task.
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All great points Kid and I DO agree on conservation vs. environmentalism...at the state level.
Here lies the problem....we have four basic upper level predatory species in the US, all competing for a similar food source or livelyhood, man, bear, lion and wolf. If man had left a few bison rather than obliterate them 150 years ago, the wolf, bear and lion would have plenty of food source to go after if, and it's a big if, we stay out of their back yard. As to the elk, mule deer and other critters, we manage them in order to live amoungst them and it's an unatural balance we're trying to achieve, it's a NO-WIN situation.
Again, don't want to start a big brewhaha about the subject. Like Tom, I've never eaten lamb, never would but that's just me. I do lilke wool but I don't believe I actually own any. I can't walk in your shoes JC but I do understand that you need to live and I would probably do the same thing if I were in your situation.
I would hope that problem animals are dealt with for obvious reasons but I'm not the type of hunter that kills for any other reason than to put food on my table.
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All great points Kid and I DO agree on conservation vs. environmentalism...at the state level.
Here lies the problem....we have four basic upper level predatory species in the US, all competing for a similar food source or livelyhood, man, bear, lion and wolf. If man had left a few bison rather than obliterate them 150 years ago, the wolf, bear and lion would have plenty of food source to go after if, and it's a big if, we stay out of their back yard. As to the elk, mule deer and other critters, we manage them in order to live amoungst them and it's an unatural balance we're trying to achieve, it's a NO-WIN situation.
Again, don't want to start a big brewhaha about the subject. Like Tom, I've never eaten lamb, never would but that's just me. I do lilke wool but I don't believe I actually own any. I can't walk in your shoes JC but I do understand that you need to live and I would probably do the same thing if I were in your situation.
I would hope that problem animals are dealt with for obvious reasons but I'm not the type of hunter that kills for any other reason than to put food on my table.
Tim, very well put!
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Damn, that is one big wolf. Before I popped the thumbnail into a photo, I thought he was holding a bear.
Lamb is wonderful, especially with a dollop of mint jelly.
Did I just say "dollop"? :o
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Damn, that is one big wolf. Before I popped the thumbnail into a photo, I thought he was holding a bear.
Lamb is wonderful, especially with a dollop of mint jelly.
Did I just say "dollop"? :o
Yes you did ;D I don't have anything against lamb, used to love it when Gram would make it. And yes, she served it with a dollop of mint jelly. ;D