The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: MikeBjerum on May 07, 2009, 08:36:10 AM
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http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/StockInvestingTrading/a-budget-cure-marijuana-taxes.aspx (http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/StockInvestingTrading/a-budget-cure-marijuana-taxes.aspx)
I don't want to debate whether anything should be legalized or not, but I have an issue with our moral compas and ethics. We have publicly become a society that will put money above anything else. I have heard this issue of the tax income from things saving us financially in the past, and in our area that is what brought the lottery and casinos out of the dark corners to lucrative business to be catered to.
In my mind right is right and wrong is wrong. Making money is not the reason to say yes or no to something. Also, just because everyone is already doing it is not a reason. Minnesota raised speed limits by five to ten miles per hour, because that is how much over the limit most were driving on these highways ... Guess what ... now they drive five to ten over the new limits. As my grandma used to ask "If everyone else jumped off the cliff would you?" Isn't that what we are now doing in many areas just for a few dollar?
Rant off ... Time to head for the church.
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Its a money grab by politicians...... nothing more, nothing less.
Yes, our society has gotten to the point where they can push for this and not have to worry about reelection, but what you are seeing here is how politicians get when they see a chance to grab up more money -- same thing with Obama rewriting the tax code to "eliminate off shore tax shelters".
THE GOVT DOES NOT NEED MORE OF OUR MONEY!
If you want to make something legal because you believe it should be legal.... fine...... Do it. But what politicians are doing in both cases is manipulating laws simply to get their hands on more money.
I will say it again.... THE GOVT DOES NOT NEED MORE OF OUR MONEY! If they cant get by on the astronomical amounts of money they already take from us, then cut non essential programs in order to fund the necessities.... its what each of us do in our day to day lives and in our own personal budgets...... so why can Govt understand the same concept?
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http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/StockInvestingTrading/a-budget-cure-marijuana-taxes.aspx (http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/StockInvestingTrading/a-budget-cure-marijuana-taxes.aspx)
I don't want to debate whether anything should be legalized or not, but I have an issue with our moral compas and ethics. We have publicly become a society that will put money above anything else. I have heard this issue of the tax income from things saving us financially in the past, and in our area that is what brought the lottery and casinos out of the dark corners to lucrative business to be catered to.
In my mind right is right and wrong is wrong. Making money is not the reason to say yes or no to something. Also, just because everyone is already doing it is not a reason. Minnesota raised speed limits by five to ten miles per hour, because that is how much over the limit most were driving on these highways ... Guess what ... now they drive five to ten over the new limits. As my grandma used to ask "If everyone else jumped off the cliff would you?" Isn't that what we are now doing in many areas just for a few dollar?
Rant off ... Time to head for the church.
Legalizing pot, and other drugs, isn't just about money M58, its also about very important moral issues as well as self defense, preserving our gun rights, national security and common sense.
Now, all thats going to make me sound like some stoner whack job. While I can't say I've never smoked ( I inhaled, exhaled and tried to blow smoke rings, because unlike Clinton I at least managed to do drugs correctly 8)), I haven't since freshman year of college when I went ROTC, so its been about 20 years.
That being said, the big lie about the drug war is that drugs cause all "drug" related problems. This is untrue. There are two sources of drug related problems. The first is due to the drugs themselves, and the second is due to prohibition and the blackmarket and attendent crime it creates.
Lets be clear, drugs can be addictive, cause health problems, lower job productivity and increase health care costs and be hard on families, the same way tobbaco and alchohol are. Would we be better of if all of the above didn't exist, yes. Do even chimps try to get drunk by seeking out fermented fruit, yes. Will the demand go away because of a law, no. Will someone always seek to provide a supply if the demand is there, yes.
By acknowledging this we leave a perfect drug free world, and travel back to planet earth. The bottom line is this. Drug abuse exacts a toll in lives, happiness and money. Prohibition on the other hand is far more expensive. What does prohibition do?
It means drug dealers must operate outside the law and deal in cash. They can't sue a supplier if a deal goes bad and they can't enjoy the protection of the police to prevent theft. Plus they are less easily deterred by laws against violence as they are looking at jail time if they just get caught with the merchandise. This means guns and violence are rational ways to deal with disputes as its basically the law of the jungle. In Texas in the '80s you had the chance to get less time (25-life) for second degree murder for killing a cop and claiming an accident, than you did if he caught you with a kilogram of crack, (life). Thus more gun violence, thus more calls to take our guns.
Likewise prohibition removes the state's ability to regulate. No refusal to sell to minors, no ability to certify purity, no way to say, sell the stuff only in package stores, make it expensive and ban advertising.
Prohibition also means large criminal gangs with lots of money.
Prohibition leads to the abilty to buy off or intimidate public servants. Look at Mexico and Columbia which are two steps ahead of anarchy. If you say it can't happen here (where our police and courts are far more constrained than there's are) it is you who need to be drug tested.
Prohibition builds up international smuggling networks. If you can smuggle 800 pounds of pot, why not 800 pounds of c-4?
I could go on but I think that I've made my practical point. The moral point is this. God made us soveriegn over our own bodies and our own lives. Our neighbors, via the state, can only justly regulate our behavior to the extent that it poses a threat to others. Not just because they don't like it. To quote John Stuart Mill, "Your freedom to swing your fist stops where my nose begins." But not before. You want to poison yourself with heroin? I'll call you a jackass, but I won't put you in jail,
Libertarian counter rant over. ;D
FQ13
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RQ13
You toe the libertarian line very well..... but your entire argument about legalization is nothing more then academic theory....... and you are missing the entire point, that is that the politicians who are wanting to do this are framing the debate in the context of wanting to do this specifically for the tax revenues.
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RQ13
You tow the libretarian line very well..... but your entire argument about legalization is nothing more then academic theory....... and you are missing the entire point, that being the politicians that are wanting to do this are framing the debate in the context of wanting to do this specifically for the tax revenues.
Thank you for your praise of my adherence to Libertain doctrine. I am more used to being scolded because I support environmental laws and am a hawk on defense. As far as academic theory, I disagree. If you can make a factual counter argument to anything I said I will listen respectfully. Finally, when it comes to taxes, I would rather collect money from taxing drug consumption than pour yet more billions down a rat hole trying to prevent it which we have spectacularly failed to do since we started the drug war in 1914. Didn't we try this in the twenties?
FQ13 Who can now brag that at least one person has told him he knows how to tow a line (my dad will require proof) ;D
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I know this thread is supposed to be about the government collecting more money through taxing legalized marijuana and not the moral aspects of legalization, but it seems one cannot be discussed without being biased by the other. I have to agree with FQ13, why shouldn't the gov. make money on pot instead of spending our tax dollars on a war that's impossible to win. Prohibition of alcohol proved that you cannot stop people from doing what they want to do. You just create a black market which eliminates taxation, which in theory, hurts everyone, and increases the strength and money making capabilities of organized crime. Furthermore, I haven't seen any threads bashing the government when they raise taxes on alcohol or tobacco. So, forgive me if I'm wrong, but this seems more of a moral issue than a political / taxation issue. In that instance, if it is regulated like alcohol, I have no problem with marijuana. Actually when it comes down to breaking the law, I would rather someone got behind the wheel after smoking a joint than just having polished of a sixer. I mean it's hard to do much damage at 5 mph. ;D Before I give anyone the wrong impression, I am not a stoner, in fact, I am a devout Christian, but whether right or wrong, should it be illegal just because it's bad for us? In that case, McDonald's, Burger King, Taco Bell, etc, will soon be outlawed. If you aren't harming anyone else, it's up to you to follow your own moral compass, not have it mandated. Just had to throw in my two pennies.
Swoop
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RQ13
You toe the libertarian line very well..... but your entire argument about legalization is nothing more then academic theory....... and you are missing the entire point, that is that the politicians who are wanting to do this are framing the debate in the context of wanting to do this specifically for the tax revenues.
I totally agree with FQ. Granted the motive is more taxes for the Gov to piss away but how many billions have been wasted on the totally ineffective "war on drugs" ? How much has the Constitution been trampled with forfeiture laws, No knock searches, etc.
The so called war on drugs was never intended to be anything more than a jobs program for already corrupt feds thrown out of work by the abject failure of the previous prohibition of Alcohol.
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I totally agree with FQ. Granted the motive is more taxes for the Gov to piss away but how many billions have been wasted on the totally ineffective "war on some drugs" ? How much has the Constitution been trampled with forfeiture laws, No knock searches, etc.
Had ta fix that for ya. ;)
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I have smoked pounds of the evil wacky stuff in my young life, and grew out of it as I did with alcohol. They are both substances that do no harm to the fellow or gal partaking in their mood altering appeal but can do irrepairable harm to those around if abused.
I find nothing wrong in either and feel strongly, as a alcoholic myself that it is NOT an illness, but a weakness that I've overcome. I work in a world that thinks differently about one over the other and I've chosen to stop the practice personally on both fronts.
To each his own as they say, I'm sure we will have dozens of different opionions as varied as any other topic....
TAXES on any substance, thing, person, property, et al.....are wrong when the Government collecting them is unable to police itself and balance their own checkbook as we all must do at the end of every lunar cycle.
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TAXES on any substance, thing, person, property, et al.....are wrong when the Government collecting them is unable to police itself and balance their own checkbook as we all must do at the end of every lunar cycle.
+100 Tim
No taxes and LESS GOVERNMENT. ;)
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[TAXES on any substance, thing, person, property, et al.....are wrong when the Government collecting them is unable to police itself and balance their own checkbook as we all must do at the end of every lunar cycle. /color]
+100 Tim
No taxes and LESS GOVERNMENT. ;)
You know, I was told I toed the Libertarian line just an hour or so ago, but now I'm going to have to blow it. (sigh...oh well it was nice while it lasted) No taxes? Talk about an all volunteer military. ::) ;D
FQ13
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Article 1 Sec 2
Clause 3:
Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons.2 The actual Enumeration shall be made within three Years after the first Meeting of the Congress of the United States, and within every subsequent Term of ten Years, in such Manner as they shall by Law direct. The Number of Representatives shall not exceed one for every thirty Thousand, but each State shall have at Least one Representative; and until such enumeration shall be made, the State of New Hampshire shall be entitled to chuse three, Massachusetts eight, Rhode-Island and Providence Plantations one, Connecticut five, New-York six, New Jersey four, Pennsylvania eight, Delaware one, Maryland six, Virginia ten, North Carolina five, South Carolina five, and Georgia three.
National sales tax. These idiots MUST be taught to live with in their means.
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Article I, Section 8 thru 10 and the 16th Ammendment allow for legal taxes for the common good, etc.......militia, army, navy, etc.....I have no problem with that...
Taxes to line the pocket of the usurpers of our Constitution are the problem...taxation for the sake of taxation is wrong...
Now, where did I put my Bong?
;D
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Article I, Section 8 thru 10 and the 16th Ammendment allow for legal taxes for the common good, etc.......militia, army, navy, etc.....I have no problem with that...
Taxes to line the pocket of the usurpers of our Constitution are the problem...taxation for the sake of taxation is wrong...
Now, where did I put my Bong?
;D
Graduated income tax is a scam that was specifically opposed in the Federalist Papers.
You can always make one out of an apple ;D
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Graduated income tax is a scam that was specifically opposed in the Federalist Papers.
You can always make one out of an apple ;D
Though it has been 20 or more years Grasshopper, I can make one out of darn near anything!
;D
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Go Navy ;D
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A funny and ON TOPIC story (lets do the tax debate on another thread because it would be illuminating, but so is the drug one). My landlord in college was a DC cop. He'd come home on his dinner hour, but got an urgent call to come back as an officer had been unresponve for an hour. Found the guy passed out in his patrol car with his windows rolled down, and his Glock dissasembled on the seat as he had been smoking pot out of the barrel with a bit of coffee filter over the end. Told ya' they were versatile! ::)
FQ13 who would like to say the guy could just as easily have been drunk
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A funny and ON TOPIC story (lets do the tax debate on another thread because it would be illuminating, but so is the drug one). My landlord in college was a DC cop. He'd come home on his dinner hour, but got an urgent call to come back as an officer had been unresponve for an hour. Found the guy passed out in his patrol car with his windows rolled down, and his Glock dissasembled on the seat as he had been smoking pot out of the barrel with a bit of coffee filter over the end. Told ya' they were versatile! ::)
FQ13 who would like to say the guy could just as easily have been drunk
Talk about barrel fouling. Guess when you run out of pot, you just run a patch down the barrel, roll that up and smoke it. ;D The solvent would just an extra kick to it.
The ingenuity of druggies never ceases to amaze me. Hand one an empty bottle of Gatorade and the next thing you know, you got a gravity bong. Try to cut off the supply brought in illegally and they'll get just those Topsy-Turvy things and grow it inside their closet.
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The ingenuity of druggies never ceases to amaze me. Hand one an empty bottle of Gatorade and the next thing you know, you got a gravity bong. Try to cut off the supply brought in illegally and they'll get just those Topsy-Turvy things and grow it inside their closet.
In all fairness Texan, if it were 1929 outside, how long would it take any of us to have a still rigged up? Hell, how to and recpies would be the main topic on this board, probably overseen by the mostly sweet but not so innocent M'lette. (thus proving my earlier point that the war on drugs is a war on human nature and you ain't gonna win) ;D
FQ13
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In all fairness Texan, if it were 1929 outside, how long would it take any of us to have a still rigged up? Hell, how to and reciepts would be the main topic on this board, probably overseen by the mostly sweet but not so innocent M'lette. (thus proving my earlier point that the war on drugs is a war on human nature and you ain't gonna win) ;D
FQ13
FQ will probably have better info on this but I believe that after cultivating grains the next step in civilization was the brewing of beer, even before the invention of the "community". About 6,000 years ago.
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Out here in California illegal pot growing goes on by trespassers on private property, private property owners, in "grow houses" in side city limits ( a great source of electrical fire causes) and in warehouses in commercial districts. The trespassers are always Mexicans either working the patch by choice or by force . They pollute the environment, terrace and erode the hillsides and steal water. the local LE goes in and clears them out when they can at very high cost. They run snares and triplines and other booby traps and are armed to the teeth to defend the patch. The grow houses and warehouses are usually done by "medical marijuana" users. It is insanely easy to get a medical marijuana card out here. One card holder can grow up to 99 plants for personal use. You have three card holders in one house and they can each grow 99 plants...I've been to very many fires caused by electrical issues in these houses.
If it is made legal will big brother legislate where and how it is grown? Or will these people continue to produce it as they have been to supply a market?
Is it good to have a drugged, complacent populace? Especially one with no guns? Or should we continue to spend lots of money trying to fight drugs? Hmmm....
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FQ will probably have better info on this but I believe that after cultivating grains the next step in civilization was the brewing of beer, even before the invention of the "community". About 6,000 years ago.
I appreciate the vote of confidence Tom but I home brewed exactly three five gallon batches of beer. They were pretty good, but a whole lot of work, and in Austin I could go to two brew pubs and several bars with micros and get better. My understanding is that historically, it was wine first (much like the chimps with their rotting fruit, which bonobos will actually let age) then honey mead, then beer, then distilled spirits. Beyond that, you'll have to find a better informed drunken geek.
FQ13
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Just for the record, I feel bad for M58. He started this thread full of moral outrage, and now we're talking about the history of homemade hootch and making bongs out of apples. Does this make us bad people?
FQ13
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Just for the record, I feel bad for M58. He started this thread full of moral outrage, and now we're talking about the history of homemade hootch and making bongs out of apples. Does this make us bad people?
FQ13
Another sign of whats wrong with our society
;D
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FQ will probably have better info on this but I believe that after cultivating grains the next step in civilization was the brewing of beer, even before the invention of the "community". About 6,000 years ago.
I can't believe I am going to say this . . . .
It takes a village to make beer.
More precisely, it takes a settled society to grow and harvest enough grains adequately, and make the beer. It is not beer as we would recognize it, strnger and thicker, and it's not mead (which is honey-based) either. The Egyptians used it for food - prevented problems from questionable water and is highly nutritious. I'm not aware of a clear archeological record that "proves" wine preceded beer or vice versa.
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Out here in California illegal pot growing goes on by trespassers on private property, private property owners, in "grow houses" in side city limits ( a great source of electrical fire causes) and in warehouses in commercial districts. The trespassers are always Mexicans either working the patch by choice or by force . They pollute the environment, terrace and erode the hillsides and steal water. the local LE goes in and clears them out when they can at very high cost. They run snares and triplines and other booby traps and are armed to the teeth to defend the patch. The grow houses and warehouses are usually done by "medical marijuana" users. It is insanely easy to get a medical marijuana card out here. One card holder can grow up to 99 plants for personal use. You have three card holders in one house and they can each grow 99 plants...I've been to very many fires caused by electrical issues in these houses.
If it is made legal will big brother legislate where and how it is grown? Or will these people continue to produce it as they have been to supply a market?
Is it good to have a drugged, complacent populace? Especially one with no guns? Or should we continue to spend lots of money trying to fight drugs? Hmmm....
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Your argument is irrelevant for 2 reasons, first, the thread is more about the Gov trying to scrounge up more money with another tax. Second, with legalization companies like Phillip Morris and RJR Reynolds would cut into Pedro's market, plus he would STILL be a target of the Gov, just like moonshiners.
According to a report I saw on TV in 2000, Pot is the number 1 cash crop in Ca, and 50% of home owners are growing for extra income.
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Beer is as old as civilization itself. It all started some ten thousand years ago in Sumeria, the fertile flood plains between the rivers Tigris and Euphrates in what is now Iraq. It was there that the first humans abandoned their hunting and gathering ways and settled down to plant fields, raise cattle, and do all the things we now associate with society. We also know that much of the grain the Sumerians harvested went into their beverage: beer! Yes, the Sumerians were the world's first brewers.
From this fact, some beer historians have maintained, somewhat glibly, that man settled and started agriculture because he wanted to turn grain into beer. In other words, these authors argue that beer came before bread. That argument, however, makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, because the ancient brews were made from bread! In those distant times, you needed bread before you could make beer.
The very first Sumerian brew was probably made by sheer accident and must have been a rather primitive beverage by today's standards. A forgetful Sumerian baker - probably the lady of the house or her maid - might have left her dough out during one of Sumeria's infrequent rainstorms. When the rays of the returning sun warmed the earthenware mixing bowl, in which the dough was now immersed in water, it became a combination of mash tun and open fermenter (as we would say today). Or, perhaps, a Sumerian family sat down for a bowl of bread dunked in water, perhaps flavored with honey, dates, or date syrup. For some reason, however, the meal was not finished. When the household re-assembled, perhaps a few days later, the bowls of gruel were still on the table.
www.beeradvocate.com
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Not as irrevelant as talking about making beer...
Sure, they could legalize pot and make money off of it. What's to stop that. Is it the right thing to do? Lot of people out here think so. Dr. Dean Edells show today talked about how less people actually used pot since it was legalized over in some country in Europe...sorry, forgot which one. So, would I rather the state and feds spent tons of our money trying to control something they have no way of every controlling? OR would I rather they just legalize it, undercut the growers and dealers, and tax it like cigarettes and alcohol? Can you imagine the money that would bring in? You know that RJR et al will ramp up the advertising machine and hype the shit out of it. Can you imagine a nation full of pot smokers? Even more than we already have? Try and see the big picture here. There is more than just do we legalize pot to make money off of the taxes.
And how do you get 50% of homeowners out here grow dope? Haven't heard that one.
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Marijauna is a gateway drug that leads to other, harder drugs. I always thought that was just anti-drug propaganda until I saw it happen in my own family. If marajuana is legalizeed should we also legalize all the other drugs that people use? Should meth, crack, and heroin be available at the drugstore without a prescription? I don't think so. IMO even if it's legal junkies will steal to get drug money, and illegal dealers will commit acts of violence.
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I'm one of those that say legalize it and I haven't smoked (pot) in 30 years!
The "war on (some) drugs" is a bigger failure than prohibition!
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Not as irrevelant as talking about making beer...
Remember wher you are, beer is NEVER irrelevant with this crew ;D
Sure, they could legalize pot and make money off of it. What's to stop that. Is it the right thing to do? Lot of people out here think so. Dr. Dean Edells show today talked about how less people actually used pot since it was legalized over in some country in Europe...sorry, forgot which one. So, would I rather the state and feds spent tons of our money trying to control something they have no way of every controlling? OR would I rather they just legalize it, undercut the growers and dealers, and tax it like cigarettes and alcohol? Can you imagine the money that would bring in? You know that RJR et al will ramp up the advertising machine and hype the shit out of it. Can you imagine a nation full of pot smokers? Even more than we already have? Try and see the big picture here. There is more than just do we legalize pot to make money off of the taxes.
Will not make a difference, it's as common as tobacco now, just that most people don't talk about it
And how do you get 50% of homeowners out here grow dope? Haven't heard that one.
I don't know, It was an ABC7 News story out of San Francisco.
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Marijauna is a gateway drug that leads to other, harder drugs. I always thought that was just anti-drug propaganda until I saw it happen in my own family. If marajuana is legalizeed should we also legalize all the other drugs that people use? Should meth, crack, and heroin be available at the drugstore without a prescription? I don't think so. IMO even if it's legal junkies will steal to get drug money, and illegal dealers will commit acts of violence.
Jumbo,
That is like saying beer leads to whiskey. Does it for some? Yes. but only because that person was predisposed to adiction. (IMHO)
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JumboFrank, That "Gateway drug" stuff is a load of bullshit. Like Haz asked, does beer lead to whiskey, it has nothing at all to do with the DRUG it has everything to do with the PERSON, just like guns and crime.
You REALLY need to read "10 Things You Can't Say In America" By Larry Elder.
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I always preferred the shot of whiskey and then the beer!
;D
Just kidding....I'm an alcoholic, as Haz said, predisposed to have a problem because my Dad was a functioning alcoholic as were all of my four other siblings. We have all learned to control that problem. As I said before, it's a weakness in my opinion. For the record, I really didn't drink excessively.
Did smoking pot lead to other things, maybe but I never let any of that get out of control like the drinking. I can't find too many people my age that have not smoked pot. I know of none of my friends that went to become an addict of smack, crack or meth....etc....
Smart people can be guilty of doing stupid things! There are millions of people in this country that still smoke, lead normal lives and do no harm to any one but they just don't talk about it.
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I had something I wanted to say on this subject...but I forgot what it was ;D
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Who's bogarting the chips?
;D