Well guess what, native born Americans of Mexican descent have been undergoing that kind of treatment for years, thruout the Southwest.
Have I misinterpreted your post? Your statement as it reads is that it's OK for this to happen and is justifed because it has happened to other US citizens that were unjustly treated. Am I somehow misinterpreting this as a rascist statement when it is not?
This should not happen to any US citizens.
Title: Re: Baptist pastor beaten + tazed by Border patrol - 11 stitches
Post by: twyacht on May 19, 2009, 08:31:01 PM
As I previously posted about how easy it is to have your rights violated, this just confirms it.
I am an American, I have nothing in my car and have done nothing wrong, therefore, the DHS, and/or LEO's (for that area),
decide I am a "problem", for exercising my rights, and the Constitution gets thrown out for "probable cause"... tazed and "booted" on the asphalt.
Granted, I can see this guy kinda being a pain in the ass for a hot tired LEO, but calmer heads prevail. And in this case they did not.
LEO's are used to getting their way, search and seizure, probable cause, ME LAW, YOU NOT mentality, but if I know I'm innocent, I will respectfully tell them so.
OK, I'll watch it again,, Chris Rock, How Not To Get Your Ass Kicked By The Police.........
Title: Re: Baptist pastor beaten + tazed by Border patrol - 11 stitches
Post by: DesertMarine on May 20, 2009, 09:00:47 PM
No, the treatment was not justified. My post was meant to make a statement as to why this incident is outrageous when this type of events have been happening all the time. Is it because it is a Bapist Minister? And yes, they are being committed by local, county, state and federal law enforcement not just border patrol and DPS. I worked as a civilian employee for a large police department and I saw that type of treatment being committed. I was trying to go with that PD as an officer but I got an offer for a federal officer job and went there. Fortunately, my job did not put me in a position where we were put in that type of position.
Where my button gets pushed is like in events like in the NE where a Hispanic boy gets killed by four non-Hispanics by being beaten up in what the police called a hate crime. The most time any of them will serve is one year. No outraged citizens complaining about it.
In the news this week, police in LA chase a guy in a vehicle with finally stopping him and he gives up, lies down, spread-eagle, a policeman comes and kicks him in the face, then he and another cop jump on top of him and start to beat him. No outraged citizens complaining, with one reporter on Fox News saying it was ok but the adreneline was high on the officer. Also commented that it was ok because the guy was a gang member.
I was traveling out of El Paso into New Mexico a week and a half ago and came to the Border Patrol check station. They were checking all vehicles with a dog. I have a crew cab truck and they checked my truck. I could see the dog handler giving signals to the agent alonside me. The looks on their faces were not good, almost like conspiring. Asked me if I had a dog in the truck, which I didn't. Finally after several minutes, they let me go. How easily it could have gone differently. The agents were Hispanic and black. First time something like this has happened personally, normally they see my Marine Corps license plate in front and wave me thru. But I have seen how they have treated other people.
The good part is that for the a-holes that are in law enforcement there are a lot more who are good examples of their profession.
Title: Re: Baptist pastor beaten + tazed by Border patrol - 11 stitches
Post by: tombogan03884 on May 20, 2009, 09:14:47 PM
Unfortunately it's the A holes that we see on TV, Whether it's something like this, or the "Mafia Cops" type corruption, or the 2A debate, it's usually the A holes that the media wants to listen to. Up here we had 2 Police Chiefs, The Chief in Nashua kept crime low, was a Decorated former NH State trooper and a real nice guy, who eventually wound up with an executive position at NRA Headquarters, The other one, in Portland Me. was a former Philadelphia detective who left the force after he blew the Ira Eichorn, Unicorn killer case, under his administration crime doubled and he violated state and federal law in his hatred of our civil rights. Can you guess which one was ALWAYS asked about gun control issues ? Micheal Chitwood was one of those A Holes you mentioned.
Title: Re: Baptist pastor beaten + tazed by Border patrol - 11 stitches
Post by: Hazcat on May 20, 2009, 09:34:37 PM
DM,
Don't go all racial on us ya old desert rat. ;) His race and occupation had nothing to do with it. It sure didn't help him.
The reason I posted this and the reason I am outraged is that this is happening more and more and it is also becoming more 'open'.
I want to make sure as many people as possible see this and realize that the guy did nothing wrong. He stood up for his rights. We must all stand up like this (I know most if not all here would) but we must make others aware and this is ammo for you when talking to people.
Title: Re: Baptist pastor beaten + tazed by Border patrol - 11 stitches
Post by: Sgt Z Squad on May 20, 2009, 10:27:57 PM
Now why wouldn't the dog handler want to come back to show the alert to get the pastor to cooperate. The DPS guys should have gotten a lttle leary when the dog handler would not bring it over for him... :-[
The van appears to be a typical passenger van with windows, a look through the windows could reveal no persons. I think we have a case of contempt of cop and this gets us LEOs in trouble all the time. Think there will be a pay out for this one.
Title: Re: Baptist pastor beaten + tazed by Border patrol - 11 stitches
Post by: tombogan03884 on May 20, 2009, 10:34:58 PM
Now why wouldn't the dog handler want to come back to show the alert to get the pastor to cooperate. The DPS guys should have gotten a lttle leary when the dog handler would not bring it over for him... :-[
The van appears to be a typical passenger van with windows, a look through the windows could reveal no persons. I think we have a case of contempt of cop and this gets us LEOs in trouble all the time. Think there will be a pay out for this one.
No offense intended to you or the other "good cops" who are there to "serve and protect", but it is badge happy "law enforcement assholes" like this that make the rest of us leery of ALL of you. You don't know if you are dealing with a good citizen or a murderous maniac, well, neither do WE.
Title: Re: Baptist pastor beaten + tazed by Border patrol - 11 stitches
Post by: Rastus on May 20, 2009, 11:36:43 PM
No offense intended to you or the other "good cops" who are there to "serve and protect", but it is badge happy "law enforcement assholes" like this that make the rest of us leery of ALL of you. You don't know if you are dealing with a good citizen or a murderous maniac, well, neither do WE.
Yep. Had a state cop pull me over when my boys were younger on the way to a ball game. 4 year old, 6 year old and 8 year old in the car...well, on our road out of the woods right at the county highway the officer (using the term loosely) was writing someone up. From his mannerism's I called it...citizens can read people too. Anyway, I told my boys by the way his head was bobbing up and down we were going to get a ticket. Here's the scenario I told them...He'll hurry up with his ticket, nearly trip over his feet, pull forward turn in the driveway to that new garage, either when stopped in the driveway, or upon turning around, he'll flip on the lights. We will stop at the stop sign first, make our turn, then you'll see him do all that and totally disregard the stop sign hauling ass to catch us.
Bingo. Just as I said....the boys were incredulous. They had faith in officers until that point. Valueable life lesson.
I pulled over and he walked up shaking his gun in his holster...no kidding. I hollered he better calm down I had thee little boys in the van and he better not hurt them...now, the van was open, windows either down or not covered, sun shining in to us with him from behind he could see in clearly and easily...and he was parked at the end of our road collecting taxes on a regular basis I'd waved at him for months. He asked what I was doing...heading to a ball game observing the law I said. To which he told me no sir you were speeding and I even gave you a chance on this county road to slow down before I pulled you over. To which I called him a damn liar, that his lights were on before he got off the woods road and then he said, well you weren't wearing your seat belt...so I called him a liar again...that I'd been driving for 25 years and could count on one hand the times I hadn't worn a seat belt and this was not one of them.
Tough crap. I was ready to go to jail for that POS because my boys had to be shown what was right.
Damn straight Tom, we don't know who we are dealing with. I can tell you about cop scams in New Orleans, Golden Meadow Lousiana, Bunkie Louisiana , St. Landry Parish Louisiana, Pine Bluff Arkansas, etc. etc. The time I was robbed and a POS officer went in my home to inspect the robbery and tried to walk out with some of my stuff (hey, insurance is going to cover it right) ...give it a break. You're either a good cop or a POS and guess what...... we don't know you and since you both wear uniforms and drive police cars we need to be careful too.
I'll treat you with courtesy and submit to your authority but I am not going to trust you until at very least we are done with our business. It's like a LEO buddy of mine explained to me, to open my eyes when I was yet naive, that there are a lot of home break-ins where an officer makes off with a little "pirates booty" too....I asked him why he didn't report the bad apples...answer...next time or two when he responded to a domestic disturbance call he didn't want to end up face down dead with a throw down laying next to him and no witnesses to know who pulled the trigger.
Which, by the way, if you are in New Orleans walking around, especially around the French Quarter, and see an officer stay off your cell phone. Tourists are shaken down every day....cop walks up being gruff and beligerent and threatening to haul you off...why you ask, what have I done, what's up...then you get really threatened and informed that little cell phone you were on...you stole it from that boy standing over where he was. When you tell him it's your phone he grabs you to haul you off and threatens to beat the crap out of you.....of course if you and the boy can work it out he'll let it slide....to which the cop steps away, the boy walks up and says something like, "Give me fifty dollars bitch."
No profession is immune from the criminal element in their ranks....it's just especially bad when the people you are supposed to have faith in and trust to keep us safe can be criminals too. Officers say you never know, so do we. Officers need to have procedures to stay safe...so do we. Officers need to stay alert, so do we. Officers can beat the crap out of you and drag you off....we just have to take it if it happens and hope we can prevail in court because if we try that to defend ourselves against a criminal gang of officers there may be no tomorrow.
............ Where my button gets pushed is like in events like in the NE where a Hispanic boy gets killed by four non-Hispanics by being beaten up in what the police called a hate crime. The most time any of them will serve is one year. No outraged citizens complaining about it.
Post it and give us a chance to be outraged about it. I get outraged about anybody being mistreated....without focus on their racial makeup.
Title: Re: Baptist pastor beaten + tazed by Border patrol - 11 stitches
Post by: tombogan03884 on May 21, 2009, 12:20:20 AM
When I attended Region 6 NCO academy for the National Guard a couple of my classmates were New Orleans cops, they bragged about things like Rastus posted about, and I saw it myself during Madri Gras in 76.
Title: Re: Baptist pastor beaten + tazed by Border patrol - 11 stitches
Post by: Sgt Z Squad on May 21, 2009, 05:34:44 AM
Yep, we are all a mess and that is the wild card, what type of person is in that uniform? You get what you pay for (New Orleans - lowest paid in country) and the imperfect selection process does let those who relish the badge, gun and the control an opportunity to use it at our expense.
I was lucky. I had a dad who was a good cop; who left the job at the station but understood the importance of character, honor, courage and integrity (He is a member of the greatest generation - WWII USN Pacific). He and I have some fun, seeing his number 1 son is a former Marine. As I enter my 29th year on the job, I recognize the importance of these qualities needed in the individual even more as a supervisor. Yet, we have boys and girls coming in whose life has been a mess from a broken family life, a lack of a father figure, a society whose message is a narcistic mentality and with lack of moral fabric to build on those previously mentioned important traits. So, LE is not a career, it is a calling. But like preachers who think shepherding a flock would be a good career quickly learn that it isn't a bed of roses and you will not get rich. Dave Grossman has a good treatise describing our society's makeup of Sheep, Sheepdogs and Wolves in "On Killing." Sheepdogs which harm the sheep need to be kenneled. >:(
After thinking more about the situation this pastor was put in; as soon as the DPS guy said he was under arrest, he should have gotten out and let himself be taken into custody. Then the attorney could take it from there without the scars or trauma. Up here in the democratic socialist state of Connecticut, we have a statute on the books in which it is illegal to resist arrest even if it is illegal. C.G.S. 53a-23. The statute does state that a person may reasonably put up resistance to an unlawful entry into their home.
I will get off my soap box. :-X
Title: Re: Baptist pastor beaten + tazed by Border patrol - 11 stitches
Post by: philw on May 21, 2009, 06:17:53 AM
well that is crap,
what sort of recourse dose this bloke have,
it will be interesting to see what against him when he goes to court
Title: Re: Baptist pastor beaten + tazed by Border patrol - 11 stitches
Post by: Rastus on May 21, 2009, 06:22:15 AM
When I attended Region 6 NCO academy for the National Guard a couple of my classmates were New Orleans cops, they bragged about things like Rastus posted about, and I saw it myself during Madri Gras in 76.
And I didn't even mention how they were chopping many of the stolen cars in NO a few years before Katrina. You park in the wrong spot....you get towed. Simple enough, you should have gotten towed parking in the wrong spot...then again, nice car, almost parking where it wasn't supposed to be...ooops...it's gone too. Now, go to the impound to pick up your car....ooops, it never checked in, must be stolen sorry. Sometimes they were in the yard about to be moved to the chop shop...sometimes they were already there.
Low pay in New Orleans, yes. But, did you know that there is Louisiana State Supplemental pay for LEO's? The state pays an extra $450/month to them....maybe a bit more. That's not a huge amount, but it has to help. I think low pay for police attracts a bad element everywhere...or rather increase the pool of poor candidates. Want to know why? Well, to pass taxes of course...we need a penny sales tax so we can increase police salaries XXXX dollars...and it gets worded so that most of the money has to go to general fund and so little a bit to police..." It's for the children." Right. These dog politicians have sucked money out of general funds to pay for buying votes to stay elected and push "dedicated taxes" for schoolteachers, police and firefighters because we all want those people to be paid well. The dirty secret, the public is too lazy or stupid to realize the bait and switch...that those dedicated funds to the good causes allow the politicians to steal the general funds that should have been used for paying those people and, instead, is used to pass around free money projects to buy votes with.
I think in some areas if police were paid well, like in New Orleans, Chicago, etc., it wouldn't really help bring in better people because the culture and politics is so deviant now they don't want honest people.
Title: Re: Baptist pastor beaten + tazed by Border patrol - 11 stitches
Post by: Pathfinder on May 21, 2009, 06:37:26 AM
As I enter my 29th year on the job, I recognize the importance of these qualities needed in the individual even more as a supervisor. Yet, we have boys and girls coming in whose life has been a mess from a broken family life, a lack of a father figure, a society whose message is a narcistic mentality and with lack of moral fabric to build on those previously mentioned important traits. So, LE is not a career, it is a calling. But like preachers who think shepherding a flock would be a good career quickly learn that it isn't a bed of roses and you will not get rich. Dave Grossman has a good treatise describing our society's makeup of Sheep, Sheepdogs and Wolves in "On Killing." Sheepdogs which harm the sheep need to be kenneled. >:(
I have seen this, although back in Illinois I saw some older LEOs who did things they should have known better than to do. I posted a short while back about the LEOs who - if I ID'd myself as a CCW during a stop - would secure me with cuffs before proceeding with the ticket. These were the young guys. The older LEOs who were running the program - and the kids' Sgt to boot, were lackluster in their support of his statements. But they will be retired soon, and the kids then in positions of authority.
The Chief in Milwaukee, the LEOs in NO after Katrina, the harassment of the guy in WI open carrying - the list goes on. These will be the front line troops when the gun grab comes, and it is one reason they have been as militarized as they have been.
Title: Re: Baptist pastor beaten + tazed by Border patrol - 11 stitches
Post by: Sgt Z Squad on May 21, 2009, 07:33:39 AM
I have seen this, although back in Illinois I saw some older LEOs who did things they should have known better than to do. I posted a short while back about the LEOs who - if I ID'd myself as a CCW during a stop - would secure me with cuffs before proceeding with the ticket. These were the young guys. The older LEOs who were running the program - and the kids' Sgt to boot, were lackluster in their support of his statements. But they will be retired soon, and the kids then in positions of authority.
The Chief in Milwaukee, the LEOs in NO after Katrina, the harassment of the guy in WI open carrying - the list goes on. These will be the front line troops when the gun grab comes, and it is one reason they have been as militarized as they have been.
Yep, I agree. When you figure out how to get the best personality and character for this job, you will make a mint.
Title: Re: Baptist pastor beaten + tazed by Border patrol - 11 stitches
Post by: tombogan03884 on May 21, 2009, 09:43:28 AM
Sgt Z Squad, I want to take this chance to reiterate that we are NOT bashing ALL Police Officers. From your previous posts it's pretty obvious that you are one of the good guys who is doing a crappy job in order to serve his community. Our beef is with the "law enforcement" thug who has a gun, a badge, and an attitude. You can look around your locker room and probably come up with examples of exactly who we mean, just by the way they talk.
Title: Re: Baptist pastor beaten + tazed by Border patrol - 11 stitches
Post by: DesertMarine on May 21, 2009, 01:52:31 PM
Haz, like I said, this kind of stuff gets to me. Why is it that events are alarming when "white" people are being affected rather than when all Americans are being affected?
I have cousins that have served and some still in Border Patrol and police departments and I see their attitudes, not good. Like some else stated, Cops good, everybody else enemy. In a way it is sad, cause I am sure that there a lot of guys in this forum that if they see something bad happening to a LEO would want to help. I know I would but I would be leary of it, wondering how my help would be received and reprucussions afterwards.
I was thinking of my stop at Border Patrol check station and what would have happened if they had checked my truck and found, which would be easy, my 1911 (cocked/locked) and 38 snubbie. Incidently, in New Mexico and Texas, it is legal to carry firearms, loaded/unloaded, hidden/in the open when travelling.
Sgt Z, and the guys that do law enforcement in an honorable way, thanks for doing it.
Title: Re: Baptist pastor beaten + tazed by Border patrol - 11 stitches
Post by: tombogan03884 on May 21, 2009, 04:55:40 PM
DM, it's BS when this happens to any citizen, to be honest, if he had been an illegal alien of European decent, I would probably say F him. As I have said (typed) many times, (and practiced in my personal life) I don't care about the ancestry of my friends and co workers, my beef is not with aliens (hell, my sister married one ) it's the Illegal part that irks me. ALL who are here legally should be treated politely, illegals however are taking their own chances.
Title: Re: Baptist pastor beaten + tazed by Border patrol - 11 stitches
Post by: DesertMarine on May 21, 2009, 09:53:41 PM
Agree with you Tom. Though even illegals are persons and should be treated right. As I understand it, coming into the country illeagly is a civil crime, not a criminal offense. I have friends who are illegaly here and relatives that live with or have married illegals. I look at that differently, don't see it as being as bad as it generally made out to be. The solutions are easy but no one has the will or guts to do it. We have "patriotic" Americans who for making a buck, pay and bring them in to work or will hire them to save a few dollars an hour. But, I guess it is not against the law to hire illegals, so when they lose the current illegals, they just hire and bring in more. Make it illegal to hire them and prosecute and jail those who do. Job market would dry up quick. But that is too simple and not politically correct.
Title: Re: Baptist pastor beaten + tazed by Border patrol - 11 stitches
Post by: TAB on May 21, 2009, 11:06:03 PM
And I didn't even mention how they were chopping many of the stolen cars in NO a few years before Katrina. You park in the wrong spot....you get towed. Simple enough, you should have gotten towed parking in the wrong spot...then again, nice car, almost parking where it wasn't supposed to be...ooops...it's gone too. Now, go to the impound to pick up your car....ooops, it never checked in, must be stolen sorry. Sometimes they were in the yard about to be moved to the chop shop...sometimes they were already there.
Low pay in New Orleans, yes. But, did you know that there is Louisiana State Supplemental pay for LEO's? The state pays an extra $450/month to them....maybe a bit more. That's not a huge amount, but it has to help. I think low pay for police attracts a bad element everywhere...or rather increase the pool of poor candidates. Want to know why? Well, to pass taxes of course...we need a penny sales tax so we can increase police salaries XXXX dollars...and it gets worded so that most of the money has to go to general fund and so little a bit to police..." It's for the children." Right. These dog politicians have sucked money out of general funds to pay for buying votes to stay elected and push "dedicated taxes" for schoolteachers, police and firefighters because we all want those people to be paid well. The dirty secret, the public is too lazy or stupid to realize the bait and switch...that those dedicated funds to the good causes allow the politicians to steal the general funds that should have been used for paying those people and, instead, is used to pass around free money projects to buy votes with.
I think in some areas if police were paid well, like in New Orleans, Chicago, etc., it wouldn't really help bring in better people because the culture and politics is so deviant now they don't want honest people.
police are generally paid very well here( about 60k to start) there are still plenty of scum bags and crimals in the ranks. What I don't under stand, you are sworn to up hold the law, how could you sleep at night if you knew another officer was breaking the law and you said nothing?
Title: Re: Baptist pastor beaten + tazed by Border patrol - 11 stitches
Post by: tombogan03884 on May 21, 2009, 11:53:09 PM
Agree with you Tom. Though even illegals are persons and should be treated right. As I understand it, coming into the country illeagly is a civil crime, not a criminal offense. I have friends who are illegaly here and relatives that live with or have married illegals. I look at that differently, don't see it as being as bad as it generally made out to be. The solutions are easy but no one has the will or guts to do it. We have "patriotic" Americans who for making a buck, pay and bring them in to work or will hire them to save a few dollars an hour. But, I guess it is not against the law to hire illegals, so when they lose the current illegals, they just hire and bring in more. Make it illegal to hire them and prosecute and jail those who do. Job market would dry up quick. But that is too simple and not politically correct.
Yes, I have to admit that some of my ranting is like a fart, lots of noise, to make a point. When I was in Ca. I worked at one place with a lot of Hispanics, The Salvadorans, Hondurans and Guatemalans, varied, just like MOST other people, The Mexicans though, every single Mexican I met out there was a polite friendly hard worker, and I KNOW some of them were gang bangers, I also know that some of my best friends among them were illegal, because INS showed up one day and 3/4 of the crew disappeared.
Title: Re: Baptist pastor beaten + tazed by Border patrol - 11 stitches
Post by: Sgt Z Squad on May 22, 2009, 12:19:44 AM
Sgt Z Squad, I want to take this chance to reiterate that we are NOT bashing ALL Police Officers. From your previous posts it's pretty obvious that you are one of the good guys who is doing a crappy job in order to serve his community. Our beef is with the "law enforcement" thug who has a gun, a badge, and an attitude. You can look around your locker room and probably come up with examples of exactly who we mean, just by the way they talk.
Understood. You are right and as a sergeant, I know I have the biggest influence of how a young guy or girl will develop as a cop. I am in the twilight of my career and it my hope to leave a legacy with these youngsters that includes common sense, courage and the ability to make decisions that are logical through their knowledge of their laws and procedures as well as through experience.
There are a lot of times in my career, I wish I could have taken back some of my conduct and actions. It would be nice to be able to do a vulcan mind meld to give these youngsters all I have learned.
Title: Re: Baptist pastor beaten + tazed by Border patrol - 11 stitches
Post by: True_Texan on May 22, 2009, 12:22:52 AM
I think the main reason people are 'outraged' over this particular white guy being beaten is basically because he made it public.
He had a camera in the car with him. When he was being questioned and forcefully removed, he had it running. He posted it's contents on the Internet. News channels got wind of it and interviewed him. They in turn broadcast it to people sitting in their living rooms. Even more people get to watch it being streamed over the Internet.
Honestly, I don't think decent people would react any differently over which race is affected, but in general most sheeple don't have a clue what is going on around them and the injustices people face everyday. It tends to to work to your advantage to put it out there, and get it smashed into peoples faces so they have no choice but to look and pay attention.
Least that's my take on it... not even worth 2 cents I would guess.
Title: Re: Baptist pastor beaten + tazed by Border patrol - 11 stitches
Post by: Hazcat on May 22, 2009, 12:26:59 AM
I think the main reason people are 'outraged' over this particular white guy being beaten is basically because he made it public.
He had a camera in the car with him. When he was being questioned and forcefully removed, he had it running. He posted it's contents on the Internet. News channels got wind of it and interviewed him. They in turn broadcast it to people sitting in their living rooms. Even more people get to watch it being streamed over the Internet.
Honestly, I don't think decent people would react any differently over which race is affected, but in general most sheeple don't have a clue what is going on around them and the injustices people face everyday. It tends to to work to your advantage to put it out there, and get it smashed into peoples faces so they have no choice but to look and pay attention.
Least that my take on it... not even worth 2 cents I would guess.