The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Defense and Tactics => Topic started by: TAB on May 20, 2009, 08:30:36 AM
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I've gone back and forth on this over the years.
There is a bad guy in your house at night, you are armed, on the phone with 911, you have already "collected" your family... They do not see you and do not know where you are.(<<<<< very important)
Do you yell at the bad guy to GTFO, telling him your armed... blah blah blah.
or do you wait, in pretty much silence?( talking to the 911 operator of corse.
now if they see you then I am all for telling them to GTFO and I'm armed.
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If they see me I'm gonna shoot them. (I am assuming I have identified them to the exdtent that I do not know them and that they intend mischief)
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Buy the dvd for the first season of The Best Defense. This topic is covered.
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In that scenario, I would say no. MB gave a wonderful personal example in a thread a while back where communication led to a deescalation of events and spared him from having to take a life.
In the scenario you are describing, I think it is best not to give up your tactical advantage (surprise). When things escalate to the point where a home invader is that deep into your home and that close to your family, there is no reason to not take decisive action and stop the threat. At the point you are describing the scenario, you are literally "backed into a corner" with no where to go. The consequences of things not going 100% in your favor are too great, and I see no reason to decrease the percentages of bringing you and your family out alive.
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Warning.
Here are some reasons why:
1.If you've set yourself so that you are at a 90 degree angle to the entrance to your safe room, you still have an element of surprise when BG comes in the room.
2. I think it s a stretch to assume that you are still going to have "tactical advantage" or "surprise" if you have "collected your family" and are talking to 911. Unless you are in a REALLY big house with REALLY good insulation, etc, the BG's going to hear you. Think about how much sound carries in your home at 2 am when everything else is quiet.
3. It is still better to not have to shoot. The warning may provide that option.
4. By giving the warning, I think you can actually shoot sooner when/if the BG comes into the room. By giving the warning, you can now by much more sure that it is not your neighbor frantic over some issue you don't know about. You can be more sure it isn't a long lost relative or your son's best friend. You can also be more assured that it isn't some random drunk/drugged person in the wrong house (see the "Should vs. Could" thread). If you've given the warning (even more one that is recorded on the 911 call), you are that much more justified and it will sit that much better in the aftermath of the event regardless of who you end up shooting if they do come in.
-RJP
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In the words of Yackoff Smirnoff, "... a warning shot is when they shoot your friend."
Seriously -
In this situation I sit like a mother bird on her nest, I cover and conceal my family and wait. I say nothing and do nothing until LE arrive and clear. However, at first sight of human flesh, or whatever is covering it, I announce, confirm (remember that good guys are assumed to be on way, and the fact that it isn't drunk brother hasn't been confirmed yet) and fire!
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Number 4 is a intresting take.
I wish I could wait at a 90 in the "safe room", I live in a multi family, if I missed or had a pass thru, I would be shooting into another units bed room. the good news is my hall way is murder. two off set 90 turns, you can't see past the 2nd until you turn the corner. down the hall way is also by far my best back stop. 2 int walls, frige, garage, wood garage door.
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Keep in mind that all states don't have the Castle Doctrine. Here in MA and CT, you'd better be darn sure your life is imminent danger before you shoot someone. A warning is the only way to somewhat assure that you're not the one going to prison for shooting someone even within the confines of your own home. Make sure that the 911 dispatch hears that warning very clearly.
Rob gives very sage advice on this matter.
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Everyone has a different situation as far as where you live, proximity to people and number of family. My situation is very simple and easy to make this decision. I dont warn.
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Tim makes a great point about state laws, and Rob also provides great feedback....... and if given the option, I think a warning is beneficial..... but as I read this scenario, I see it as a "Should".
*Here is the referenced Should vs Could thread:
http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=4939.0
*Here is the referenced MB incident:
http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=4939.msg58623#msg58623
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I warned them by locking the door.
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The signs outside my doors that are styled after Chuck Norris' signs should be enough of a warning. The signs recite "We don't call 911" and have the silhouette of a gun hanging just below those words.
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The signs outside my doors that are styled after Chuck Norris' signs should be enough of a warning. The signs recite "We don't call 911" and have the silhouette of a gun hanging just below those words.
You're forgetting the third part of your sign.
"Guns inside, please come steal." ::)
FQ13
PS if you DO shoot someone, and didn't have time for 911 before, you have just complicated your life. Me, I'd get a new sign.
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I think I would give the warning.
If the Pistolcam will do what it's suppose to, this will help if there is no time to make the 911 call. LEO's will be able to see just what happened and if legal action is taken it will all be captured. ;)
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You're forgetting the third part of your sign.
"Guns inside, please come [[steal]] taste the steel." ::)
;)
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Massachusetts laws on the Castle Doctrine...
Chapter 278: Section 8A. Killing or injuring a person unlawfully in a dwelling; defense
Section 8A. In the prosecution of a person who is an occupant of a dwelling charged with killing or injuring one who was unlawfully in said dwelling, it shall be a defense that the occupant was in his dwelling at the time of the offense and that he acted in the reasonable belief that the person unlawfully in said dwelling was about to inflict great bodily injury or death upon said occupant or upon another person lawfully in said dwelling, and that said occupant used reasonable means to defend himself or such other person lawfully in said dwelling. There shall be no duty on said occupant to retreat from such person unlawfully in said dwelling.
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Rob, in my opinion , ended the discussion with the qualification mentioned by Timothy and 2How, that local laws and personal situations can vary.
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Before they get anywhere near the room I'm in, I'll yell that the police are on the way and that I have a gun & I'm prepared to use it!
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I think they'lll figure things out when they hear the Remington 870 being cycled. ;)
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Before they get anywhere near the room I'm in, I'll yell that the police are on the way and that I have a gun & I'm prepared to use it!
WELCOME!! (to the fun house). Please post something in the new member thread so we can all razz....uhhhh...say hello to you.
;D
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FWIW, I was not really looking for "advice" I was more intrested in peoples "IMO"
I was on another web site and some one mentioned the old " if they are half way in the window, shoot them and pull them all the way in" myth. Which led to a do you warn or not idea.
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I was on another web site and some one mentioned the old " if they are half way in the window, shoot them and pull them all the way in" myth.
Yea TAB, that's called murder!
Also called, "the reason I don't visit any gun forums other than this one".....
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FWIW, I was not really looking for "advice" I was more intrested in peoples "IMO"
I was on another web site and some one mentioned the old " if they are half way in the window, shoot them and pull them all the way in" myth. Which led to a do you warn or not idea.
The answer to the advice question is simple. Its always better not to shoot if you can avoid it. I don't want to be a hero and catch the bad guy. I don't want to look in the mirror and know I killed somebody if I could have avoided it, however legal it may have been. I don't want to pay for a lawyer and face charges. I just want the asshole out my house. If saying I have a gun will work, good. Me, I plan on putting one through the ceiling to let them know I really do have one, if the situation permits. It always best to take every reasonable alternative to shooting that is available. Thats my advice for what its worth.
FQ13
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Yea TAB, that's called murder!
Also called, "the reason I don't visit any gun forums other than this one".....
it depends... I vist a few gun forums, some for the great wealth of info, others to crack up reading about the mall ninjas and the tinfoil hat crowd.
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it depends... I vist a few gun forums, some for the great wealth of info, others to crack up reading about the mall ninjas and the tinfoil hat crowd.
I stumbled upon this one some time ago because I wanted to watch Jerrett shoot 1000 rounds in 10 minutes and the link brought me here. It appearded to have a wealth of information, people with knowledge, constraint, humor and a great sense of community. I decided to stay around...
Glad I did because it appears that I've made a few friends. Something for me, a conservative, right wing veteran living in the socialist capital of the US, is pretty cool......
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I may warn depending on my initial assessment. But no to a warning shot. Ammo is too hard to come by and I hate patching holes in the walls and replacing anything that might be damaged. ;D In all seriousness though, do you want to be responsible for a warning shot gone awry? ???
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I may warn depending on my initial assessment. But no to a warning shot. Ammo is too hard to come by and I hate patching holes in the walls and replacing anything that might be damaged. ;D In all seriousness though, do you want to be responsible for a warning shot gone awry? ???
Hence the ceiling. 3/4 inch ply, the crap in the attic, 5/8 inck ply and then concrete roof tiles, which should be plenty for a 9mm hollow point. If I can't put it there, the guy better beleive me when I say I have a gun, because legal issues aside, I won't endanger an innocent to save a thug.
FQ13
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I guess I am lucky due to FL law does have a castle clause. And it not only pertains to your home, business, but also to your car and any where you happen to be.
So we have law on our side to defend ourselves from bodily harm without penalty.
Now with that said, if you are on the phone with 911 remember, it is being recorded and can and will be used against you in court if the BG or their family sues you. As you all can think up recent examples of this I am sure.
So, being on the phone with 911 I would most certainly yell, GTFO , STOP, then followed by bang x15 (9mm, 14 for my 40) followed by reloading. Well, maybe not the whole mag but at least "enough to stop the threat."
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I guess I am lucky due to FL law does have a castle clause. And it not only pertains to your home, business, but also to your car and any where you happen to be.
So we have law on our side to defend ourselves from bodily harm without penalty.
Now with that said, if you are on the phone with 911 remember, it is being recorded and can and will be used against you in court if the BG or their family sues you. As you all can think up recent examples of this I am sure.
So, being on the phone with 911 I would most certainly yell, GTFO , STOP, then followed by bang x15 (9mm, 14 for my 40) followed by reloading. Well, maybe not the whole mag but at least "enough to stop the threat."
Same here, no duty to retreat in your home, so if possible I will warn them, but no warning shots, if I pull the trigger it will be at center of mass.
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I guess I am lucky due to FL law does have a castle clause. And it not only pertains to your home, business, but also to your car and any where you happen to be.
So we have law on our side to defend ourselves from bodily harm without penalty.
Now with that said, if you are on the phone with 911 remember, it is being recorded and can and will be used against you in court if the BG or their family sues you. As you all can think up recent examples of this I am sure.
So, being on the phone with 911 I would most certainly yell, GTFO , STOP, then followed by bang x15 (9mm, 14 for my 40) followed by reloading. Well, maybe not the whole mag but at least "enough to stop the threat."
Texas is very similar. Castle includes home, vehicle, property and business. When a repo man was shot and killed in Houston, the Grand Jury no-billed the shooter who stated that he thought that his property was being stolen. In the summer of 2008 case of Joe Horn. Mr. Horn left his home and pursued 2 criminals that were burgularizing his neighbors home. Mr. Horn was on the phone with a 911 operator. Even when told by the 911 operator to return to his home, Mr. Horn continued the pursuit. He told the 911 operator that he was going to shoot the men in question. The operator again told Mr. Horn not to do so and that law enforcement was on the way. All well documented on the 911 call. Long story short. Mr. Horn was also no billed. Don't mess with Texas!!!
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both of those are very bad examples.
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both of those are very bad examples.
I absolutely 200% agree with you TAB. It is the degree of the bad examples that I wished to illustrate. Texas is very different and I would not advise anyone in Texas or anywhere else to follow such foolish behavior. These examples were meant to demonstrate how leniant the laws in Texas are. If Mr. Horn gets no-billed, it makes you wonder just what it takes. The "Don't Mess with Texas" is a serious warning. Would you be a repo man here? I wouldn't...not for a million bucks. By the way, it's against the law for a repo man to carry a gun.
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I absolutely 200% agree with you TAB. It is the degree of the bad examples that I wished to illustrate. Texas is very different and I would not advise anyone in Texas or anywhere else to follow such foolish behavior. These examples were meant to demonstrate how leniant the laws in Texas are. If Mr. Horn gets no-billed, it makes you wonder just what it takes. The "Don't Mess with Texas" is a serious warning. Would you be a repo man here? I wouldn't...not for a million bucks. By the way, it's against the law for a repo man to carry a gun.
I wouldn't try to be a repo guy and operate in subterfuge in Texas, ain't worth it. And if some one is breaking into my place you have permission to shoot them. And I have declared "Don't Mess with Texas" to be the national motto of Texas.
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With the joe horn case, it was the grand jury not fallowing the laws, but going on emotion. it happens from time to time.
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With the joe horn case, it was the grand jury not fallowing the laws, but going on emotion. it happens from time to time.
Actually, it was the media who was driving the story on emotion..... The grand jury did things right as per TEXAS law..... TAB, dont even try to wrap your tiny little cal-E-for-E-a brain around it.... it wont work.
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Actually, it was the media who was driving the story on emotion..... The grand jury did things right as per TEXAS law..... TAB, dont even try to wrap your tiny little cal-E-for-E-a brain around it.... it wont work.
try again, in tx, you can use deadly force to protect property, you can also use deadly force to defend some one elses property, when you have written permission. he only had verbal.
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try again, in tx, you can use deadly force to protect property, you can also use deadly force to defend some one elses property, when you have written permission. he only had verbal.
try again...... you are still only right in your own mind!
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try again, in tx, you can use deadly force to protect property, you can also use deadly force to defend some one elses property, when you have written permission. he only had verbal.
Ok here's the story. Both men were shot in the back from Horn's shotgun. IMHO several things got him off the hook. They were in Horn's yard at the time they were shot and killed, Horn stated that he was in fear for his life (probably the most important legal factor). He did garner additional sympathy for many reasons including; They were illegal aliens and convicted criminals in their home country of Columbia, they were known members of an organized burgulary ring, they had the stolen property on them when they were shot, they had multiple false identifications with multiple aliases.
Still...any other state you're going away for a long time when you shoot two guys in the back for robbing your neighbor. Takes me back to my original contention. Being a repo man or a criminal in Texas can be very hazardous to your health.
Back to the original question of the thread. If you live in Texas, no need for a warning, even when recorded by 911.
Do I think shooting repo guys or burgulars at the neighbors house is a good idea? No way, no how, never..... but if these guys can get off the hook, it makes me feel a little better if there is ever the need for a responsible, justifiable, righteous shoot.
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Look I live in CA and once about 5 years ago i had to use my gun to save my life. I had 3 assholes break into my garage which is in the front of my house. They made it to the door that leads into the house, and there i am with my 9mm and 911 has me on hold. WTF could i do but shoot the wrecked garage door after voice commands didnt work. They broke out like they had seen the devil and cops get there as the last jerk was making his way out. The cops got them but i got treated like a criminal beacuse i discharged my weapon.
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FWIW, I was not really looking for "advice" I was more intrested in peoples "IMO"
I was on another web site and some one mentioned the old " if they are half way in the window, shoot them and pull them all the way in" myth. Which led to a do you warn or not idea.
It may or not be murder - if he has a gun in his hand and points it at you even tho he's still in the window, you drop him where he is. However, pulling him into the house is tampering with evidence and you will go to prison - righteous shoot or not.
The answer to the advice question is simple. Its always better not to shoot if you can avoid it. I don't want to be a hero and catch the bad guy. I don't want to look in the mirror and know I killed somebody if I could have avoided it, however legal it may have been. I don't want to pay for a lawyer and face charges. I just want the asshole out my house. If saying I have a gun will work, good. Me, I plan on putting one through the ceiling to let them know I really do have one, if the situation permits. It always best to take every reasonable alternative to shooting that is available. Thats my advice for what its worth.
FQ13
No, the gun is for shooting the bad guy to stop him from doing bad things to you or your family. It is not for redecorating your ceiling. Let's say the shot scares him away - a neighbor calls the cops reporting gunshots, and now it is just your word that someone was trying to break in. And if in town, they will arrest you for discharging a weapon inside the city limits.
Let me make this clear -
You do not fire a warning shot!
You do not shoot to wound!
You do not shoot for any reason other than to stop the BG from doing bad things to you or your family!
Using a gun is using deadly force, and you have to treat it as such. Leave the other crap in the movies where it does not belong. If you break these rules, a 1st year prosecutor or PI lawyer will have you in jail and/or paying through the nose for the rest of your life.
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Although I live in California, I took a Utah CCW class last weekend. In part to further the cause of CCW by showing that citizens have an interest in possessing them, but also to have the RIGHT to protect myself in the many states that recognize Utah's CCW (they'll be the only states to see our vacation dollars). The instructor, Clark Aposhian, who is also the Chairman of the State of Utah Concealed Weapon Hearing/Licensure Board, gave the best, most sensible answer to a question about warning/wounding shots that I've ever heard and I'll keep it in mind always.
He said that warning shots and wounding shots were like tools that you've had in your toolbox since before you can remember. You never use them and you may never ever need them and they are probably inappropriate for 99.9% of situations. They are small enough to keep stored away and just because you don't use them doesn't mean that you have to throw them away. There is always the slightest possibility that those tools may come in useful and may help you to get home to your family someday.
He did point out that Utah law doesn't allow for these types of shots and that there are risks.
When there is a police shooting where someone says, "why didn't they shoot him in the hand?", or something like that. I point out that cops don't take chances with trick shooting. However, I remember a televised shooting where a man with a revolver tried to commit suicide by cop and a sniper used his little hidden away tool, when he shot the cylinder out of the revolver.
In California, we have no castle doctrine, but I'll keep those little tools stored away for some unforeseen circumstance.
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Fuzdaddy reminded me of something I did not remember in the dark of night in my last post. This re' "shoot to wound".
Remember the various news stories about cops in a shootout, and the news reports go something like - "Police say they fired 42 shots at the suspect, of which 4 hit him"? And the cops are required to qualify on a regular basis.
In a high-stress situation, you cannot even count on hitting center-mass, so you're going to try to shoot him in the shoulder (like in the old TV shows) or the hand (ditto), maybe the leg? Please, ain't gonna happen except for a lucky shot.
As for the sniper, that is a different story - they receive range time and training way above what an average cop gets. Besides, there they are, prone, or with the highly accurate weapon stabilized in some manner, scope, etc. That is a very different shot than being a civilian in his home in the middle of the night, groggy from sleep, trying to sort out what's happening, and confronting an intruder in the hallway.
One other thing, if the BG turns out not to be armed, I would think a prosecutor - esp a lefty anti-gun one - could make your life very miserable for a long time.
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If you do not have the mindset to use a defensive fire arm as it was intended, in other words shooting the BG until he ceases to be a threat, then you should forget it, lock it up for range use and get a dog.
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Fuzdaddy reminded me of something I did not remember in the dark of night in my last post. This re' "shoot to wound".
Remember the various news stories about cops in a shootout, and the news reports go something like - "Police say they fired 42 shots at the suspect, of which 4 hit him"? And the cops are required to qualify on a regular basis.
In a high-stress situation, you cannot even count on hitting center-mass, so you're going to try to shoot him in the shoulder (like in the old TV shows) or the hand (ditto), maybe the leg? Please, ain't gonna happen except for a lucky shot.
As for the sniper, that is a different story - they receive range time and training way above what an average cop gets. Besides, there they are, prone, or with the highly accurate weapon stabilized in some manner, scope, etc. That is a very different shot than being a civilian in his home in the middle of the night, groggy from sleep, trying to sort out what's happening, and confronting an intruder in the hallway.
One other thing, if the BG turns out not to be armed, I would think a prosecutor - esp a lefty anti-gun one - could make your life very miserable for a long time.
something like that happen in the bay area not to long ago 3 cops 1 with a ar 2 with thier side arms. 50 something shots 2 hits. the guy from the ar fired all 30, another fired his mag, reloaded and shot some more. the 3rd fired 3 times. the hits were ankle and upper arm.
all this at about 5 yds.
guess who got the hits?
the guy that fired 3 times. ;D
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something like that happen in the bay area not to long ago 3 cops 1 with a ar 2 with thier side arms. 50 something shots 2 hits. the guy from the ar fired all 30, another fired his mag, reloaded and shot some more. the 3rd fired 3 times. the hits were ankle and upper arm.
all this at about 5 yds.
guess who got the hits?
the guy that fired 3 times. Grin
Well, yeah, his buddies laying down suppressing fire. ;)
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Well, yeah, his buddies laying down suppressing fire. ;)
So I read through this entire thread and run across this. ;D It's a perfect example of why I keep coming back here. Quality stuff.
With the subject at hand, if you have a gun you need to be prepared to take a life. Period. You can argue semantics of warn and not warn etc. Unless you have trained countless hours you will default to your level of training. I would hope that the only time I would come across this scenario would be here in discussion only.
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Texas is very similar. Castle includes home, vehicle, property and business. When a repo man was shot and killed in Houston, the Grand Jury no-billed the shooter who stated that he thought that his property was being stolen. In the summer of 2008 case of Joe Horn. Mr. Horn left his home and pursued 2 criminals that were burgularizing his neighbors home. Mr. Horn was on the phone with a 911 operator. Even when told by the 911 operator to return to his home, Mr. Horn continued the pursuit. He told the 911 operator that he was going to shoot the men in question. The operator again told Mr. Horn not to do so and that law enforcement was on the way. All well documented on the 911 call. Long story short. Mr. Horn was also no billed. Don't mess with Texas!!!
Texas law allows you to actually shot someone who has stolen your property and is fleeing if they have taken something that is basically irreplaceable. And it allows the same thing for protection of a third party's property.
Sec. 9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY. A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property:
(1) if he would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.41; and
(2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:
(A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or
(B) to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the property; and
(3) he reasonably believes that:
(A) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means; or
(B) the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.
Sec. 9.43. PROTECTION OF THIRD PERSON'S PROPERTY. A person is justified in using force or deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property of a third person if, under the circumstances as he reasonably believes them to be, the actor would be justified under Section 9.41 or 9.42 in using force or deadly force to protect his own land or property and:
(1) the actor reasonably believes the unlawful interference constitutes attempted or consummated theft of or criminal mischief to the tangible, movable property; or
(2) the actor reasonably believes that:
(A) the third person has requested his protection of the land or property;
(B) he has a legal duty to protect the third person's land or property; or
(C) the third person whose land or property he uses force or deadly force to protect is the actor's spouse, parent, or child, resides with the actor, or is under the actor's care.
So damn straight: Don't mess with Texas!
http://tlo2.tlc.state.tx.us/statutes/docs/PE/content/htm/pe.002.00.000009.00.htm
This is not legal advice...I am not a lawyer and I don't play one on TV. ;D
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Thanks for the facts True !!!!
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Is a red dot on their chest enough warning?? Thats all they'll get from me!!
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Is a Barking, German shepherd along with the "beware of dog" sign on the mailbox a good warning??? ;) Would be for me, but then I've got integrity and good sense enough to work for the money for what I want instead of stealing.
But seriously, Castle doctrine or no, I think it's not a bad thing to give the bad guy warning before you have to shoot. Just one more thing to tell the judge and jury you tried every means possible before deadly force. And if a witness such as a Dallas police dispatcher hears that warning, that much better.
God willing, you and I'll never have to use any of this type of advice. :)
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I'll give a VERBAL warning, but if I fire it will be for center of mass.
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If you've given the warning (even more one that is recorded on the 911 call), you are that much more justified and it will sit that much better in the aftermath of the event regardless of who you end up shooting if they do come in.
-RJP
+1
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NO. In my house, unlawfully, trespassing, with not ONE SHRED of GOOD intent? 3:48 a.m. or any other time...
There may be more than one BG and a "warning" may allow the first scumbag that's going downs "friends" to take defensive cover.
I believe in the Spray-N-Wash home defense mentality: IF I have to get my Rem 870 out, after the Model 19, .357, all bets were off to begin with.
NO Warning, and NO Quarter.. if one invades my home....
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One warning shot.... right between the eyes. Then if they keep coming I let them have it.
Oh...no...that's for bears...
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Well, around 4 a.m. this morning, 8/30/09, my wife and kids were awaken by a boom or bang. The wife sat tight with the baby and I gave her my cell phone while I grabbed the Glock 21SF and a flashlight. I made it across the hallway to where my two teenage sons were sleeping. I opened the door and entered their room and found them sitting up in their bunkbeds. I told them to sit tight and lock their bedroom door as I descended down the stairs for further investigation.
I have motion sensor lights on the front and rear of the home and both were on. I cleared every room slowly and methodically. None of the doors had been comprimised. As I headed towards the rear of the home I saw a shine in the windows. The police were already present and shining their spotlight around my home. I live in a better neighborhood so I decided to withdraw back towards where my loved ones were.
I did not exit nor open the exterior doors of the home. Once I saw the spotlights and squad cars I knew we were in good hands and moved back upstairs. Not sure what the situation was nor is it any of my business. One thing I am thankful for, other than God, was the ability and knowledge to deal with a home invasion situation effectively. Fortunately for us it was not our home being invaded.
I would not have given a warning shot in this situation. My instincts and training kicked in and I would have nuetralized the threat/s and my wife would have been on the phone with the police and prepared to protect the children.
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Well, around 4 a.m. this morning, 8/30/09, my wife and kids were awaken by a boom or bang. The wife sat tight with the baby and I gave her my cell phone while I grabbed the Glock 21SF and a flashlight. I made it across the hallway to where my two teenage sons were sleeping. I opened the door and entered their room and found them sitting up in their bunkbeds. I told them to sit tight and lock their bedroom door as I descended down the stairs for further investigation.
I have motion sensor lights on the front and rear of the home and both were on. I cleared every room slowly and methodically. None of the doors had been comprimised. As I headed towards the rear of the home I saw a shine in the windows. The police were already present and shining their spotlight around my home. I live in a better neighborhood so I decided to withdraw back towards where my loved ones were.
I did not exit nor open the exterior doors of the home. Once I saw the spotlights and squad cars I knew we were in good hands and moved back upstairs. Not sure what the situation was nor is it any of my business. One thing I am thankful for, other than God, was the ability and knowledge to deal with a home invasion situation effectively. Fortunately for us it was not our home being invaded.
I would not have given a warning shot in this situation. My instincts and training kicked in and I would have nuetralized the threat/s and my wife would have been on the phone with the police and prepared to protect the children.
One question Ping
Why clear the house? I know its a natural instinct and one I would be tempted to do as well.Yet, if the your loved ones are behind you and the cops are outside, why not just hold in place? Clearing rooms is dangerous work, and unless you're in lot better shape than me (not a high standard) I wouldn't want to be wrestling for contol of a gun if I could just have sat tight at the top of a staircase and let 5 0 take care of it.
FQ13
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To give you an answer FQ, I have been trained to do so in several capacities (military,local LE and civillian) over a couple of decades. The mistake that I do not make is exiting my home with a firearm. I am a big guy but I can manuever around my home with ease. After attending and training with Rob Pincus and Paul White this past week for Combat Focus Shooting, I am more confident, determined, consistent and efficient with my firearm within the household.
And as for the police, I do have a high regard for them. That is why after observing their presence outside my home I made the appropriate decision to allow them to perform their duties, remain inside and go back upstairs with my family. In the meantime I remained alert.
Hopefully that answers your question about clearing the house.
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After attending and training with Rob Pincus and Paul White this past week for Combat Focus Shooting
.... but, for the record, we do not advocate clearing the house in that situation. In our home defense courses, we would've suggested that once the older children were identified as secure, all of the family should have gathered in one room and awaited LE response.
Possessing Ability to shoot does not mean one should seek out the opportunity to do it.
-RJP
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Possessing Ability to shoot does not mean one should seek out the opportunity to do it.
-RJP
Comment of the Day, week and so far, the year! thanks Mr. P....
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I apologize for bringing you up Mr. Pincus, Mr. White and I.C.E. Training (
we do not advocate clearing the house in that situation[/ I will surely think twice towards making the same mistake again. I was not trying to give the green light for possessing the ability to shoot. But I will and shall utilize all means necessary within the confines of my home to eliminate or nuetralize any threat that enters the walls of my home and threatens my family on my own accord.
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No offense taken, Ping.... nor was any meant. I just wanted to clarify my position on he issue, certainly didn't mean to insinuate that you were "looking for trouble". :)
-RJP
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To give you an answer FQ, I have been trained to do so in several capacities (military,local LE and civillian) over a couple of decades. The mistake that I do not make is exiting my home with a firearm. I am a big guy but I can manuever around my home with ease. After attending and training with Rob Pincus and Paul White this past week for Combat Focus Shooting, I am more confident, determined, consistent and efficient with my firearm within the household.
And as for the police, I do have a high regard for them. That is why after observing their presence outside my home I made the appropriate decision to allow them to perform their duties, remain inside and go back upstairs with my family. In the meantime I remained alert.
Hopefully that answers your question about clearing the house.
Ping, did the LEO's talk to you after and what did they say?
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They never stopped at my home. Two squads drove by with their spotlights on towards the homes in the neighborhood including mine. Not sure what made the noise in the neighborhood and I stayed inside my home. Nothing was ever mentioned in the paper either.
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This is a question I don't think there is a cookbook answer for. For people who live in states with no "Castle Doctrine" you definitely don't have the law on your side when it comes to an intruder in your house. For those of us who do, we are afforded a little more leniency in our homes. I guess my feeling is I keep my doors locked for a reason, and no way anyone is mistaking my house for someone else’s, drunk or not. If I hear my door being broke down and they make it past my dog to where our bedrooms are, they are fair game. I WOULD be afraid for my life and that is enough justification to pull the trigger in my mind. I have two small children whose bedrooms are next to ours. I can't afford the luxury of waiting to find out the intentions of the intruder, especially with rest of my family in the house. They would get no warning from me except hearing the slide of my pistol chamber a hollow point.
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This is my second post on this, but I am compelled after observing all the looks on this . IF YOU PUT YOUR FIREARM IN YOUR HAND YOU SHOULD BE READY TO USE LEATHAL FORCE, PERIOD. The circumstances must have escalated to a point where your life or the life of another person in your proximity is in leathel danger. There is no such thing as a warning shot, unless your a bad shot. ::)
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This is my second post on this, but I am compelled after observing all the looks on this . IF YOU PUT YOUR FIREARM IN YOUR HAND YOU SHOULD BE READY TO USE LEATHAL FORCE, PERIOD. The circumstances must have escalated to a point where your life or the life of another person in your proximity is in leathel danger. There is no such thing as a warning shot, unless your a bad shot. ::)
2HOW
My comment (or two) earlier were that I would give a warning, not give a warning shot. I am totally against giving a warning shot, because in self defense it is both sending a round into an area that is not a target, and it is a waste of ammo you may need. I am for giving a verbal warning to be sure the person is either a threat or a questionable person vs. a friendly. Would hate to shoot the kid sneaking in late at night ... as much as I considered it a few times ;)
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Like I posted earlier, VERBAL warning Especially if I had time to get 911 on the phone, "I got a cop on the phone and a gun in my hand, GET OUT OF MY HOUSE". As 2How says, if I pull the trigger and don't hit them it will be a miss, not a warning.
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2HOW
My comment (or two) earlier were that I would give a warning, not give a warning shot. I am totally against giving a warning shot, because in self defense it is both sending a round into an area that is not a target, and it is a waste of ammo you may need. I am for giving a verbal warning to be sure the person is either a threat or a questionable person vs. a friendly. Would hate to shoot the kid sneaking in late at night ... as much as I considered it a few times ;)
Understood, a little misunderstanding with your post. I see no problem with calling out you are armed to flush out a suspected intruder.
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They would get no warning from me except hearing the slide of my pistol chamber a hollow point.
You store your home defense gun in condition 3?
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You store your home defense gun in condition 3?
Not sure what condition 3 means, but it has a full magazine but not one in the chamber. It is kept in a lock box under my bed with the key always in it. IF my 2 1/2 year old would happen to get ahold of it there is no way she could make it fire. If I kept one in the chamber, that could be a different story. I have a Springfield XD sub-compact in .40 if that matter to you.
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Oh my GOD ! Not the "terrible two's ! ;D Unless the lock box is attached to the bottom of your bed frame I'd bet she found it before she started walking. it just didn't have any amusement value. Watch out, at those ages they have that rubber arm thing going, Kids seem to be able to get into things WE can't reach. ;D I'm only PARTLY kidding.
Condition 3 refers generally to 1911's,
#1 is a round in the chamber, hammer cocked and the thumb safety on, which is actually very safe as there are 3 separate safeties between that and a bang, the thumb safety, the grip safety and keeping everything away from the trigger, It's how John Browning intended it to be carried.
#2 is hammer down on an empty chamber and
#3 is empty Chamber, no magazine
That's how I remember it any way, I may be off, but I KNOW #1 by heart, it's how I carry.
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Not sure what condition 3 means, but it has a full magazine but not one in the chamber. It is kept in a lock box under my bed with the key always in it. IF my 2 1/2 year old would happen to get ahold of it there is no way she could make it fire. If I kept one in the chamber, that could be a different story. I have a Springfield XD sub-compact in .40 if that matter to you.
Conditions of carry...
Condition One: Ready To Rock
In Condition One, the pistol has a cartridge in the chamber and a fall magazine inserted into the magazine well. This state of readiness occurs just prior to firing the gun.
In Condition One, a Glock handgun is brought into action simply by being brought on target. When placed on the trigger, the shooter's finger disengages the safety lever located in the middle of the trigger.
In Condition One, 1911 pistols are in a mechanical state commonly called "cocked and locked." In this mode, the hammer is back and the thumb safety is up and in a locked or "safe" no-fire position. The magazine is full and in place.
To bring into action, the 1911 is brought on target, the thumb safety depressed into fire mode and the trigger is accessed. The 1911 also requires that the grip safety located at the back of the frame be depressed in order to fire the pistol.
In Condition One, a firearm is in its fullest state of readiness. The operator is simply required to draw or present the pistol to the threat and apply the mechanics necessary to make the pistol fire. Condition One would be a correct choice when it is necessary to carry the pistol in a state of readiness for potential imminent use.
Condition Two: Dangerous And Awkward
In Condition Two, the pistol has a cartridge in the chamber and a full magazine in place. Glocks cannot be carried in Condition Two as they have no external hammer. When a 1911 is carried in Condition Two, the thumb safety is off and the hammer is down. The grip safety is still in place but does not come into play until the hammer is brought back for firing.
This Condition of Carry offers the dual disadvantage of being both dangerous and awkward. To bring the pistol into action, the operator must first cock the hammer to the rear, making this method of operation slower than the "cocked-and-locked" method of Condition One. Furthermore, Condition. Two could be dangerous if the hammer slips during the risky "dropping" process or if the gun itself is accidentally dropped while in this hammer-down mode. This mode of carry is not recommended under any circumstances.
Condition Three: Is It Child Proof?
In Condition Three the chamber is empty and a full magazine is in place in the magazine well. Condition Three is applicable in both the 1911 and Glock systems and is a common method of carry for military organizations around the world.
he Israelis have gone so far as to include drawing, crouching and reciprocating the slide as a technique of instruction. U.S. military units have long carried pistols in this half-loaded configuration while walking or serving on guard- and duty-stations. U.S. military sentries have even developed a technique of one-handed drawing by reciprocating the slide on the belt or holster to charge the weapon.
It has been suggested that Condition Three is a safe condition in which to store a handgun in a child-occupied home. This theory is based on the assumption that a youngster could not easily reciprocate the slide and thereby load the weapon.
More Articles of Interest
To dispel that myth, I personally know of a young couple whose 3-year-old daughter gained access to their Government Model 1911, cycled the slide and discharged the firearm in the bedroom closet. Fortunately, no one was injured, although everyone involved was quite shaken by the incident.
For this reason, I recommend that Condition Three is appropriate for firearm storage only if the half-loaded guns function as secondary weapons and are stored in locked vaults or lock boxes.
Condition Four: Ultimate Security
In Condition Four, which applies to all handguns, the gun is completely unloaded and the magazine is removed. In its most technically correct form, the slide of the pistol should be locked to the rear. This condition should be used when inspecting firearms as well as storing them in secure areas. For long-term storage, it is best to put the pistol into Condition Four, making sure that it is unloaded, and then bring the slide forward to rest with the hammer down.
In various forms, these four conditions apply to all semi-automatic handguns. These conditions also apply, based on design and mechanics, to some revolving handguns. For example, the Colt Single Action Army is best and most safely carried with only five rounds loaded and the hammer down on an empty chamber -- essentially Condition Three
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_8_46/ai_63772593/