The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Handguns => Topic started by: rjenks on May 20, 2009, 04:12:40 PM
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Can anybody point me to a source for information about the rates of accidental discharges for various handguns. I'm not so much interested in rate of negligent discharges, only truely accidental discharges. I've spent the last 20 minutes with google and yahoo and have not really been able to find anything authoritative.
I carry a glock in .40 sw and the other day my wife asked me "is it safe to carry that with a round in the chamber?" My answer was "yes" but then I got curious and wanted to know actual numbers. So far, all I can find are opinions about the safety of carrying various handguns.
Robert Jenks
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True ADs are EXCEEDINGLY rare. Most are ND even if not called that.
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It seems the terminology is constantly changing on this, I was brought up with ND being an AD, and AD being 'misfire'. But there are many types of misfires, mechanical failures and slam fires. I, in fifteen years of shooting, have never witnessed a mechanical failure of a weapon system that led to misfire or a round being discharged. I've heard from a few primary sources about slam fires on various rifle platforms, but never on handguns. I'm sure someone like MB would have the shooting experience, to enlighten us.
I wouldn't be worried about it, you could remind the wife that cops leave their chambers loaded for literally months at a time with the the same round in the chamber without the hammer falling. The true misfires are probably so few and far apart that no one keeps those numbers, and even if those statistics were kept, you would only being seeing those that were reported to a manufacturer.
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Just assure your wife that gun deaths are not even close to the top of accidental anything in this country. Alcohol, automobiles, Doctors, fires, etc...are all FAR more responsible for death than guns...
As long as you know your firearms and check them for function EVERY time you touch them, you should be safe.
http://www.the-eggman.com/writings/death_stats.html
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Lightning and sharks EACH kill more people per year than even Negligent (careless) discharges do, true Accidental, (malfunction) Discharges are about as common as winning the lottery.
I've been shooting for over 30 years and have NEVER seen a fire arm discharge that did not involve some one being careless with the trigger.
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ND happen alot more then are made public. hell one small town in UT this year had 2 very public ones in less then a month, both made national head lines... There was also one recently of a professional trainer that was carrying "mexican". It can happen to anyone, I can't stress this enough, guns are made to destory, always treat them with that in mind.
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While I seldom agree with TAB, He is right when he stresses appropriate safety. You would not act carelessly with a chainsaw. Do not act carelessly with firearms. Negligent discharges seem to be more common among people who have more experience and should know better, but Familiarity DOES breed contempt if you allow it to and that contempt can cost a life.
http://www.negligentdischarge.com/
Carelessness Kills
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While I seldom agree with TAB, He is right when he stresses appropriate safety. You would not act carelessly with a chainsaw. Do not act carelessly with firearms. Negligent discharges seem to be more common among people who have more experience and should know better, but Familiarity DOES breed contempt if you allow it to and that contempt can cost a life.
http://www.negligentdischarge.com/
Carelessness Kills
Beyond sobering. I consider myself to be a safety minded person, my number one rule is muzzle direction and keeping the trigger clear of any dangers, like wandering fingers, but you can never be reminded too many times. Humans are forgetful creatures, and I'll take any bit of safety reminders that someone can offer. My dad's safety stories, be it about guns, cars, or motorcycles, always end with, "and there were brains all over that place." Stay vigilant, it may be mentally tiring and your friends may be fed up with your 'safety BS' but its worth it.
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While I seldom agree with TAB, He is right when he stresses appropriate safety. You would not act carelessly with a chainsaw. Do not act carelessly with firearms. Negligent discharges seem to be more common among people who have more experience and should know better, but Familiarity DOES breed contempt if you allow it to and that contempt can cost a life.
http://www.negligentdischarge.com/
Carelessness Kills
THAT was a great find Tom. This guy screwed up and spent months documenting it. Well worth a gander. He has several links in the document that take you to updates etc.
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Not sure where to look but I have only seen a few accidental discharges. All but one were in the military till I saw a slam fire a few weeks ago at the range.
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Thanks to all for the replies. I am convinced that a true accidental dischange with my Glock is extremely unlikely, I'm probably more likely to get killed by lightning, but it seems that hard statistics on this just aren't available. The events may be so rare that meaningful stats just can't be gathered.
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Fundamental rule of booger hook OFF bang switch, till needed, applies.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6aSJgcpqePk
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last year there was a poll/thread on THR ( the high road) more then 50 % of the people that actually took the poll admited to have a ND( or AD as many like to call them)
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plus guns carried in large numbers by LE agencies -- i.e. Glock, Sig etc -- are going to have many more NDs simply because they make up a much greater percentage of the sample.
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plus guns carried in large numbers by LE agencies -- i.e. Glock, Sig etc -- are going to have many more NDs simply because they make up a much greater percentage of the sample.
Also, guns carried by an organization will have AD/ND more likely to be documented where if a private person screws up if no injuries they are more likely to just say"damn, won't do THAT again". and go about their business.
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I suppose some of it depends on how you define AD vs ND. To use the unfortunate example of the guy who got shot carrying Mexican, we can define that as ND. On the other hand, if he had just tripped and dropped the gun, probably AD. Its one of the good features of the Glock you mentioned (along with many other guns) that they are mechanically incapable of accidental discharge as long as you, quoting Tom "keep your bugger hook off the bang switch". There are exceptions in some weapons though. I love my old 3 screw Blackhawk, but it is simply unsafe to carry with a round under the hammer because it can go off if dropped. I still own it, but I either fire all five, or rotate the cylinder to put it back over an empty one. The same was true of my old .44mag model 94. If you load with pointed bullets, and slam it down butt first, bad things can happen. You need to know this stuff before buying/operating a weapon. If you don't own a gun and are worried, I would reccomend the Glock as there is only one thing to worry about and that is to keep your finger off the trigger. Reassure your wife of its safety by reminding her of how many PDs issue it. One of their criteria is making it both idiot proof, and being safe if a cop falls and drops it durig a chase.
FQ13
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its very simple ADs are when you have a gun or "gear" malfunction.( gear malfuctions are iffy)
Every thing else is a ND.
just about all NDs are from having your trigger on the finger... Droping a gun and having it go bang is a ND...
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its very simple ADs are when you have a gun or "gear" malfunction.( gear malfuctions are iffy)
Every thing else is a ND.
just about all NDs are from having your trigger on the finger... Droping a gun and having it go bang is a ND...
Accidental Discharge, like TAB says, is an equipment Malfunction, that's an unpreventable act of God.
A NEGLIGENT discharge means you messed up, either got your finger in the trigger or allowed some other object to contact the trigger, ALL ND's are preventable through proper safety procedures.
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This video makes it very clear what a negligent discharge is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PYHR72u51Q
"I'm the only one in this room professional enough, that I know of, to carry this glock 40" MY ASS!!!