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Member Section => Politics & RKBA => Topic started by: philw on May 31, 2009, 05:59:28 AM

Title: Coded Ammo only in the U.S. By Mid Year???
Post by: philw on May 31, 2009, 05:59:28 AM
as you can understand I have been following this a little, 


it there any chance of this getting in ???



Quote
May 29th 2009
Here's what you'll find in this edition:

 The topic of available ammunition and ammunition accountability has been a hot topic recently.  We thought you might appreciate one of our recent articles posted within the GunsInternational.com articles section.

The Scoop on Ammunition Accountability
 

The Scoop on Ammunition Accountability  by James Dark
Ever since the invention of the internet by Al Gore, a new phenomenon has come into being, one surely as inevitable as death and taxes: the phenomenon of the constantly circulating e-mails, jokes, pictures and conspiracy theories. It seems that about every six or seven months, usually when people discover the Internet for the first time, they have to forward these things to all their friends, and it just starts the vicious cycle all over again.

Those of us who have been on the Internet since good old Al figured it all out, are getting carpal tunnel syndrome from deleting the emails that we have seen ten thousand times since the mid-1990's.

So I thought I would devote my space in this month's magazine to giving you the straight skinny on one of the new myths circulating, in the hope that you will at least know the complete truth about this one before you circulate it. I am talking about the much ballyhooed Ammunition Accountability Act, which is being touted as President Obama's means of controlling guns through ammunition control.

I have to begin by saying something you have never heard me say and likely never will again. The president is innocent on this one! Pure as the driven snow! Let me tell you the whole story.

By now, everyone on the planet has received this e-mail at least 1,000 times. In case you don't own a computer, here is what it says (typos and all):

Remember how Obama said that he wasn't going to take your guns? Well, it seems that his minions and allies in the anti-gun world have no problem with taking your ammo!

The bill that is being pushed in 18 states (including TN, Illinois and Indiana ) requires all ammunition to be encoded by the manufacture, a data base of all ammunition sales. So they will know how much you buy and what calibers. Nobody can sell any ammunition after June 30, 2009 unless the ammunition is coded.

Any privately held uncoded ammunition must be destroyed by July 1, 2011. (Including handloaded ammo.) They will also charge a .05 cent tax on every round so every box of ammo you buy will go up at least $2.50 or more! If they can deprive you of ammo they do not need to take your gun! Please give this the widest distribution possible and contact your Reps!

It's the ammo, not the guns.... I've said for a long time that they wouldn't go for your guns, they'd go for your ammo... guns have a Constitutional protection. Ammo does not.

Heads up to all of you who swore to defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign AND domestic. Let your state Legislatures know that we do not want this bill passed, and petition them to vote no on this bill. We should keep after them until the bill is closed by bombarding them with e-mails, phone calls, and letters.

Get to all your politicians to get to work and NOT LET THIS HAPPEN!!! The 2008 Legislative session has begun, and the Ammunition Accountability Act is being introduced across the country. Below is a list of states where legislation has already been introduced:

Alabama, Arizona, California, Connecticut, Hawaii, Illinois, Indiana, Kentucky, Maryland, Mississippi, Missouri, New Jersey, New York, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Carolina, Tennessee, and Washington.

More information can be found at: http://www.ammunitionaccountability.org/Legislation.htm

Oh, where to begin...

Let's start with that website mentioned above. Who owns it?

According to the whois.com registry, it is registered to domains by proxy in Arizona , a firm specializing in hiding the identity of its customers by concealing ownership information of websites. So long as you don't post anything illegal, or openly and obviously libelous, this firm will protect your identity from anyone, short of a subpoena being delivered.

So who runs the domain? The lobbying and political consultant firm of Gordon, Thomas, Honeywell, which is employed by a company called Ammunition Coding Systems, runs ammunition accountability.org. ACS was co-founded by Russ Ford and Steve Mace, and coincidentally, I'm sure, owns the patent on the system designed to laser-engrave codes on projectiles and casings, as part of the system being proposed in this legislation.

Recently, Russ Ford appeared on the NRA News with Cam Edwards and endured what had to be an uncomfortable and grueling interview with Edwards over the feasibility of his proposal. He also admitted during the interview that his company's lobbying firm runs ammunitionaccountability .org, claiming that the relationship is "transparent." I guess my question is why is it registered through domains by proxy if the intent is to be transparent?

Significantly, when asked about the Public policy experts Ammunition Accountability claims support this proposal, Ford was unable to provide a single name. But most of the discussion centered on the manufacturing systems.

Ford admitted that this system is essentially a theory. It has never been tested on any manufacturing process, but he doggedly defended that the technology exists to be able to accomplish that which is required by the legislation: the production of 20 or 50 round boxes of ammunition, with all rounds within a box encoded (on both projectile and casing) with a laser-engraved serial number. One mistake in this process results in a $ 10,000 fine to the manufacturer. There has never been any attempt to test this procedure by inserting it into a current running manufacturing process to evaluate the ability to make all the cogs fall into place in a way that doesn't seriously hamper production.

In a sniveling defense of his proposal, Ford stated that his company had sent out more than 400 letters to ammunition manufacturers asking for their assistance in testing their system, and had received only one letter back, and that was one that was misaddressed. In rebuttal, Cam Edwards stated the quite obvious when he said, "No one is under any obligation to help you out with an idea that they think is stupid!"

The bottom line is that this entire legislative scheme is being pushed by a company that stands to make millions of dollars on royalty income if its insane scheme bears fruit. But so crazy is the scheme that the only hope for its eventual use is the bludgeoning of legislation through the state legislatures.

So far, ACS has managed to get this bill introduced into 18 states. Here is the status of all of the bills:

Alabama Senate Bill 541: It was indefinitely postponed in House of origin. It will not pass and would have to be reintroduced.

Arizona House Bill 2833: It never got heard in any committee. Never voted on. It would have to be reintroduced.

California Senate Bill 997: SB997 has no Info on it, and died in committee. SB1471 passed and is now known as the "Crime Gun Identification Act of 2007." It was authored by Assembly member Mike Feuer (D- Los Angeles ) and was signed by Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger. The bill is in regard to handguns and microstamping, not ammunition. It also has no wording in it that would indicate that citizens would need to turn in their guns. It could also be rendered moot depending on the technology. It is not a part of the AAA agenda.

Connecticut Raised Bill 603: The bill was raised and had a public hearing. No action was taken. Bill would need to be re-introduced.

Hawaii House Bill 2392, Hawaii Senate Bill 2020 , Hawaii Senate Bill 2076: All bills were deferred to the judiciary with no further action taken. Bill would need to be reintroduced.

Illinois House Bills 4258, 4259, 4269, 4349. Illinois Senate Bill 1095: All bills referred to Rules Committee. No other actions were taken.

Indiana House Bill 1260: Was sent to committee and not acted on again. It would need to be reintroduced.

Kentucky House Bill 715: Was withdrawn.

Maryland House Bill 517: No copy of the report. It didn't pass. Would need to be reintroduced.

Mississippi Senate Bill 2286: Died in Committee.

Missouri Senate Bill 1200: Referred to Judiciary. Would need to be reintroduced.

New Jersey Assembly Bill 2490: Referred to Assembly Law and Public Safety Committee. Would need to be reintroduced.

Pennsylvania House Bill: Referred to the Judiciary on Feb. 5, 2008. No other action taken.

Rhode Island Senate Bill 2742: Committee recommended measure be held for further study. It would need to be reintroduced.

South Carolina Senate Bill 1259: Was referred to a subcommittee with no further action taken. Would need to be reintroduced.

Tennessee House Bill 3245, Tennessee Senate Bill 3395: Both were sent to the judiciary committee with no other action taken. Would need to be reintroduced.

Washington House Bill 3359: Was referred to the Judiciary with no other action taken. Would need to be reintroduced.

So as you can see, ACS and its lobbying firm have made little progress. But what I find most interesting in this case is that this proposal is not being forwarded by the "usual suspects." The Obama administration hasn't said a word, and even the Brady Campaign (at least nationally), the Million Mom March, Violence Policy Center and the other usual Second Amendment foes are keeping their distance from this stinker of an idea. Even they can apparently recognize a crackpot when they see one.

Interestingly, Russ Ford claimed in his NRA News interview to be a shooter. He even mentioned that he was going to be paying for part of the cost of this proposal himself. Of course, he failed to mention the fact that he would also profit in the millions from every other of the 8 billion rounds of ammunition manufactured in the U.S. every year. Until Ford shoots more than 8 billion rounds of ammo personally a year, he will clearly profit from this.

What is quite obvious from this is that we are not dealing so much with anti-gunners but rather with opportunists. If the Ammunition Accountability folks are in fact supporters of the Second Amendment or shooters, then they are simply modern-day Judas Iscariots looking to make millions of pieces of silver by selling out the Constitution with their ill-gotten idea to mandate a theory that has never been proven to work.

Legislation Status provided courtesy of http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2009/01/ammunition-accountability-act-e-mail.html, retrieved January 28, 2009.

Originally published in the Texas State Rifle Association Sportsman magazine.
Title: Re: Coded Ammo only in the U.S. By Mid Year???
Post by: tombogan03884 on May 31, 2009, 11:58:34 AM
The only one pushing this legislation is the guy who holds the patent on the machinery. With the exception of Ca. as soon as this is pointed out to a State legislature the bill dies. Even Illinois didn't pass this one.
Title: Re: Coded Ammo only in the U.S. By Mid Year???
Post by: TAB on May 31, 2009, 07:13:23 PM
The only one pushing this legislation is the guy who holds the patent on the machinery. With the exception of Ca. as soon as this is pointed out to a State legislature the bill dies. Even Illinois didn't pass this one.


there is aloop hole in the law, if the tech is not in the free market, it does not have to be done.   so as long as that guy holds a patton, its not a vaild law.   thank you who ever stuck that in the bill.
Title: Re: Coded Ammo only in the U.S. By Mid Year???
Post by: MikeBjerum on May 31, 2009, 11:25:12 PM

there is aloop hole in the law, if the tech is not in the free market, it does not have to be done.   so as long as that guy holds a patton, its not a vaild law.   thank you who ever stuck that in the bill.

Problem is that all he needs to do is sell the info to another company that makes machines and you got the full force facing you instantly!

There are many laws that are passed that are worded X will be the law as of Y date or whenever the (supply, technology, infrastructure, etc.) is available.  Minnesota passed a bio-diesel law that everyone thought the fuel stations would have at least five years to prepare before production reached the trigger level ... three months later a new soy processor converted all oil production to soy-diesel by pairing with another company with the resources.  Over night the fuel regulations were changed.

We don't want this kind of junk legislation passed ... PERIOD!
Title: Re: Coded Ammo only in the U.S. By Mid Year???
Post by: TAB on May 31, 2009, 11:54:29 PM
the way the law is written it has to be free to use by anyone.  so he would have to give every one a lic, free of charge.

it would also only apply to new model hand guns that are trying to be added to the safe hang gun list.  those on the list can not be removed as long as the manufactor does not make any major changes and pays the $15 or so buck every 3 year per model( that law say they can only change what it costs to process the info, not turn a profit)

why yes it sucks, its not the end of the world.
Title: Re: Coded Ammo only in the U.S. By Mid Year???
Post by: tombogan03884 on June 01, 2009, 12:02:10 AM
the way the law is written it has to be free to use by anyone.  so he would have to give every one a lic, free of charge.

it would also only apply to new model hand guns that are trying to be added to the safe hang gun list.  those on the list can not be removed as long as the manufactor does not make any major changes and pays the $15 or so buck every 3 year per model( that law say they can only change what it costs to process the info, not turn a profit)

why yes it sucks, its not the end of the world.

But it's one step closer. Which do you fore see if the trend continues, give up all your guns, or move somewhere else and rebuild your business, even if you can take all your tools and equipment you still have to rebuild your reputation among people who don't know you ?
To quote Pathfinder, Runstowin and a few others, CLICK
Title: Re: Coded Ammo only in the U.S. By Mid Year???
Post by: TAB on June 01, 2009, 12:08:03 AM
But it's one step closer. Which do you fore see if the trend continues, give up all your guns, or move somewhere else and rebuild your business, even if you can take all your tools and equipment you still have to rebuild your reputation among people who don't know you ?
To quote Pathfinder, Runstowin and a few others, CLICK


As soon as my grandparents pass on, I'm leaving CA.  Already have lot ready to build on.  if push came to shove, I'd just sell all my guns to my uncle who is in NV and I would be fine.  yes I own lots of things that are banned in CA, just never bring them back home.

guns are net even in the top 10 reasons I'm leaving CA.
Title: Re: Coded Ammo only in the U.S. By Mid Year???
Post by: tombogan03884 on June 01, 2009, 12:10:26 AM

As soon as my grandparents pass on, I'm leaving CA.  Already have lot ready to build on.  if push came to shove, I'd just sell all my guns to my uncle who is in NV and I would be fine.  yes I own lots of things that are banned in CA, just never bring them back home.

guns are net even in the top 10 reasons I'm leaving CA.

Will this require revisions to peoples opinions about TAB ? :o
Title: Re: Coded Ammo only in the U.S. By Mid Year???
Post by: MikeBjerum on June 01, 2009, 12:38:02 AM
I still stand my opinion that accepting a bad law, rule or regulation with conditions is as dangerous as if there were no conditions attached!


Tom - NO!
Title: Re: Coded Ammo only in the U.S. By Mid Year???
Post by: True_Texan on June 01, 2009, 12:42:29 AM
Will this require revisions to peoples opinions about TAB ? :o
NOT A SNOWBALLS CHANCE IN SOUTH TEXAS!
Title: Re: Coded Ammo only in the U.S. By Mid Year???
Post by: johnkorz on June 01, 2009, 12:51:20 AM
I would not take this bill lightly because I recall my graduate studies in chemical engineering we covered why we use gasoline to power our cars instead of ethanol.  It seems way back in the 1920s a person of named J. Paul Getty decided that gasoline was a better fuel because he was in the oil business.  Mr. Getty had several many connections in Washington, DC and several states who lobbied for the use of gasoline. If we would have stayed with ethanol the problems we are having today would may not exists.  This means we should do what ever we can to make sure this bill does not see the light of day in the states.   

JFK.
Title: Re: Coded Ammo only in the U.S. By Mid Year???
Post by: TAB on June 01, 2009, 03:05:34 AM
I would not take this bill lightly because I recall my graduate studies in chemical engineering we covered why we use gasoline to power our cars instead of ethanol.  It seems way back in the 1920s a person of named J. Paul Getty decided that gasoline was a better fuel because he was in the oil business.  Mr. Getty had several many connections in Washington, DC and several states who lobbied for the use of gasoline. If we would have stayed with ethanol the problems we are having today would may not exists.  This means we should do what ever we can to make sure this bill does not see the light of day in the states.   

JFK.


um no offence, but your prof was a idiot, ethonal, has less BTUs, it hygroscopic, cuts into the food supply, can not be pumped long distances, has zero lube propertys...  gas just makes so much more sense.  more BTUs, can be pumped, great lube properys, stable....  ethonal is a joke.  it was back then and it still is.

who is expecting the law?  there is more to life then guns.  there are litterly hundreds of laws that need addressing before we get too this one.  Some of those there is a chance of getting them repealed. 
Title: Re: Coded Ammo only in the U.S. By Mid Year???
Post by: Texas_Bryan on June 01, 2009, 03:36:15 AM

um no offence, but your prof was a idiot, ethonal, has less BTUs, it hygroscopic, cuts into the food supply, can not be pumped long distances, has zero lube propertys...  gas just makes so much more sense.  more BTUs, can be pumped, great lube properys, stable....  ethonal is a joke.  it was back then and it still is.

who is expecting the law?  there is more to life then guns.  there are litterly hundreds of laws that need addressing before we get too this one.  Some of those there is a chance of getting them repealed. 

Deer corn is six bucks a bag now!!!  I have zero proof, but I'm willing to blame it all on ethanol. >:(
Title: Re: Coded Ammo only in the U.S. By Mid Year???
Post by: fightingquaker13 on June 01, 2009, 04:38:56 AM
Deer corn is six bucks a bag now!!!  I have zero proof, but I'm willing to blame it all on ethanol. >:(
Not just deer corn. Its the price of corn (eg tortillas) and cooking oil in the 3rd world. Its not wininng us a lot of friends right now in LA and Africa. Something the Chinese are quick to capitalize on.
FQ13
Title: Re: Coded Ammo only in the U.S. By Mid Year???
Post by: MikeBjerum on June 01, 2009, 07:29:58 AM
Deer corn is six bucks a bag now!!!  I have zero proof, but I'm willing to blame it all on ethanol. >:(

Texas,

Indirectly it is ok to blame ethanol if it is indirectly ok to blame guns for murders.  You can't sell me on shortage of food when they are building more and more storage and ethanol plants every year and still dumping corn on the ground.  Plus, ethanol detractors always forget to tell you or accept that there is a more valuable food source left as a byproduct after distilling.

I personally put my blame, or praise if you make your money raising corn, wheat and soy beans, on the commodity traders.  You know they guys.  They're the ones in an office on the 15th floor in downtown Chi Town that will tank the market if two drops of rain hit their office window in June.

Back on TAB and his reasoning:

Regardless of whether this law will ever be enforce or not, it is a chink in the armor, a crack in the foundation, a weep hole in the dike, (insert your metaphor here) that can open the door for something else more devastating to be slipped in under the cover of night!

How would you feel about any legislation that laid the groundwork for firearm registration?  Maybe the law only says that if there are five million murders committed with a S&W J frame, chambered in .38 +p only, and must take place between 7:30 PM and 2:00 AM edt, in cities of a population of .75 million or more, and the registration of handguns in a National data base will not go in place until this happens.  Easy to say as reasonable people with common sense this is something we can give in a civilized community to curb the violence.  However, it says we are ok with firearm registration!

Don't dismiss any firearm related legislation as trivial and meaningless unless you are ready to accept the worst case associated with it!
Title: Re: Coded Ammo only in the U.S. By Mid Year???
Post by: tombogan03884 on June 01, 2009, 12:57:44 PM
We can not afford to shrug off ANY assault on our rights, TABs comments here underline the fact that he does not seem to "get it". The 2nd Amendment doesn't have any thing to do with "Sporting purposes". It is specificly aimed at giving the PEOPLE the fire power necessary to overthrow and if needed kill oppressive legislators (In other words TYRANTS) The fact that those of you in Ca., Il, NY, etc. have allowed your Govt.s to get so far out of hand shows that to many do not grasp the fact that this is NOT a democracy, It is intended as a republic, but the sheeple have allowed it to become a dictatorship of the mob, the tyranny of whiners.
Title: Re: Coded Ammo only in the U.S. By Mid Year???
Post by: TAB on June 01, 2009, 03:32:32 PM
so  how exactly can we fight those laws...

lets see

write letters to your reps,   check, I average 2 a month.( two letters, sent to several reps)

call your reps,  check, I average about 1 a month.

Go to rallys at the capitol,  check, I'm at ever one I hear about.

shooting with your rep, check, shot several rounds of sporting clays with him.

So tell me, what else can be done?

I always hear people outside of CA saying "you let this happen", but they never want to offer help or offer a  solution.

you have to understand for every person in ca that is "pro gun" there atleast is 1 in la and 1 is sf that hates guns and thinks they should be banned. 

The cold reality is, most people don't care one way or the other about gun control.  ( its like this for the nation as a whole)  they are more worried about some other issue.   


lets just use the NRA as a example( I personal don't like them and will never support them, but thats another thread)  there is what  4 mil members nation wide?  out of 300 million people  that is only 1.33% of the popultion.   as a whole the nation really does not care.



Title: Re: Coded Ammo only in the U.S. By Mid Year???
Post by: PegLeg45 on June 01, 2009, 03:49:47 PM
Quote
The cold reality is, most people don't care one way or the other about gun control.  ( its like this for the nation as a whole)  they are more worried about some other issue.   


lets just use the NRA as a example( I personal don't like them and will never support them, but thats another thread)  there is what  4 mil members nation wide?  out of 300 million people  that is only 1.33% of the popultion.   as a whole the nation really does not care.


I don't know if it's as much a situation of "don't care" as it is people just being too lazy and/or cheap to stand up for something. There are too many gun owners out there for there to only be 4 million members in the NRA.
It's not just happening in the gun culture, though.
It's been that way for years.
People want something for nothing and/or want other people to do the fighting for their benefit.
Title: Re: Coded Ammo only in the U.S. By Mid Year???
Post by: tombogan03884 on June 01, 2009, 03:58:20 PM
so  how exactly can we fight those laws...

lets see

write letters to your reps,   check, I average 2 a month.( two letters, sent to several reps)

call your reps,  check, I average about 1 a month.

Go to rallys at the capitol,  check, I'm at ever one I hear about.

shooting with your rep, check, shot several rounds of sporting clays with him.

So tell me, what else can be done?

I always hear people outside of CA saying "you let this happen", but they never want to offer help or offer a  solution.

you have to understand for every person in ca that is "pro gun" there atleast is 1 in la and 1 is sf that hates guns and thinks they should be banned. 

The cold reality is, most people don't care one way or the other about gun control.  ( its like this for the nation as a whole)  they are more worried about some other issue.  


lets just use the NRA as a example( I personal don't like them and will never support them, but thats another thread)  there is what  4 mil members nation wide?  out of 300 million people  that is only 1.33% of the popultion.   as a whole the nation really does not care.


Glad to see that YOUR rep is a shooter. But you left out the most important thing, EDUCATION ! 2 of the many points you can raise are
 1) The Constitution lays out the "Law of the land" that includes the provision that the right to keep and bear arms "SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED" since America is a REPUBLIC, ruled by LAW, not a democracy ruled by the whim of the mob, their sick fear of an inanimate object is not a valid argument for violating the law.
2) With 20,000 laws on the books regulating firearms and have no beneficial effect on murder, rape, or robbery statistics, challenge them to prove how another will make any difference.
OK, more than 2  ;D
3) point out to them that the current decline in violent crime coincides with the spread of Concealed carry.
4) Challenge their hypocrisy by questioning why, if they are concerned with violent crime, they pass laws that only effect the law abiding, instead of addressing the true root of the problem, violent criminals.

For more talking points go to www.gunfacts.info


And another thing, I'm not talking about JUST writing to politicians, write to newspapers as well, and  introduce these facts into conversations, and last but not least the secret weapon  ;D
TAKE THEM SHOOTING, because I'm willing to bet that pro gun people vastly out number the true gun haters, the rest don't know any better and have to be shown how safe, healthy, and most importantly FUN, the shooting sports are.

How do you like that TAB, I posted all that and never ridiculed or insulted you once   :o
Title: Re: Coded Ammo only in the U.S. By Mid Year???
Post by: TAB on June 01, 2009, 04:25:08 PM
cocealed carry does not reduce crime... if it did alaska would not lead the nation in sexual assult per captia.  by twice the next highest state. ( FBI numbers)  AK is also for the most part a "dry state"  so by the logic used that CCW reduce crime,  the lack of booze cuases rapes.   Now that might be the case, but i'd bet it has to do with other factors... can't prove it either way.

when it comes to stats, your best not to bring them up at all.  the only thing that most of the "statisics community" agrees on  is that over all guns play no roll in crime stats.  Yes, there are a few that say other wise( both sides), but those that do have either recanted ( lott)  have been prove to be false, or use bad data/ data gathering pracitces.

Take the fear away from guns thru education is what works.

Title: Re: Coded Ammo only in the U.S. By Mid Year???
Post by: MikeBjerum on June 01, 2009, 05:03:18 PM
cocealed carry does not reduce crime... if it did alaska would not lead the nation in sexual assult per captia.  by twice the next highest state. ( FBI numbers)  AK is also for the most part a "dry state"  so by the logic used that CCW reduce crime,  the lack of booze cuases rapes.   Now that might be the case, but i'd bet it has to do with other factors... can't prove it either way.

when it comes to stats, your best not to bring them up at all.  the only thing that most of the "statisics community" agrees on  is that over all guns play no roll in crime stats.  Yes, there are a few that say other wise( both sides), but those that do have either recanted ( lott)  have been prove to be false, or use bad data/ data gathering pracitces.

Take the fear away from guns thru education is what works.



Don't care whether it reduces crime or not - The Second Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America says that my right to keep and bear arms will not be infringed.  Pretty clear that I have Constitutional protection to keep, carry and use these tools to protect myself, my family and my fellow country men from all dangers, foreign and domestic!
Title: Re: Coded Ammo only in the U.S. By Mid Year???
Post by: tombogan03884 on June 01, 2009, 05:10:36 PM
cocealed carry does not reduce crime... if it did alaska would not lead the nation in sexual assult per captia.  by twice the next highest state. ( FBI numbers)  AK is also for the most part a "dry state"  so by the logic used that CCW reduce crime,  the lack of booze cuases rapes.   Now that might be the case, but i'd bet it has to do with other factors... can't prove it either way.

when it comes to stats, your best not to bring them up at all.  the only thing that most of the "statisics community" agrees on  is that over all guns play no roll in crime stats.  Yes, there are a few that say other wise( both sides), but those that do have either recanted ( lott)  have been prove to be false, or use bad data/ data gathering pracitces.

Take the fear away from guns thru education is what works.



FBI crime statistics show a steady drop in the national violent crime rates over the past several years, over that same period all but 2 states that previously did not have concealed carry legislation have passed it, with the exception of Alaskas sexual assault stats , which are of cultural roots, the states with the lowest crime rates have the least restrictive gun laws, LA, NY or Chicago have more  murders per day than the annual total for Maine, NH and Vermont combined, Me. and NH are extremely UNrestrictive with easy to obtain concealed carry permits, the burden is on the issuing authority to find a reason not to issue, Vt. doesn't bother, if you can own, you can carry concealed, none regulate open carry at all.
Title: Re: Coded Ammo only in the U.S. By Mid Year???
Post by: TAB on June 01, 2009, 05:52:06 PM
we also had good econmic times, now that the econ is going down hill, the crime stats are going back up.  yet gun ownership and CCW are thru the roof. 

the greater chicago area also has more people per sq mile then any of the places you mentioned.  maybe thats whats cuasing there to be more murders?

we just don't know, there is just far to many factors to tell what cuased what.

Title: Re: Coded Ammo only in the U.S. By Mid Year???
Post by: tombogan03884 on June 01, 2009, 06:46:58 PM
 Biggest factor is that violent crime is punished, if at all, in a halfassed manner, with plea agreements, and ridiculus sentences.