The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: TAB on May 31, 2009, 08:45:10 PM
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http://www.shipsnostalgia.com/guides/William_Doxford_and_Sons#The_Manufacturing_Process
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Great post TAB, Thank you.
An entire generation (or maybe even two), now rely on C & C machines, and a computer program that just has to be "monitored" with a QC guy at the end to check every other one.
My Grandfather, Thomas Diamond Watchorn, was a WWII veteran, went to MIT after re-enlisting for Korea, and formed Watchorn Hydraulics, out of Miami in the late 50's.
Had a fat contract with the airlines, landing gear and aileron, flaps etc,.. systems, and NASA for the retractable launch pad, all run by hydraulic systems. Long before the days of "computer programmers" there was this generation that did it the "old fashioned way", slide rules, mathematics, and their God given brains.
Firearms used to be made this way, large precision equip. the same way. It worked, lasted longer than a lot of crap out there today, was serviceable, and was made with 99% American stuff.
Thanks again for the post. It reminds me of an America of yesterday that I wish were here today.
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Noticed few of them used eye or ear protection.
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Damn. Those Crankshafts are huge. And I think that one of the pics is part of the exhaust manifold or looks like one. Precision.
And also those pieces on the lathes are awesome .
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Actually the old machines, fine as they were could not come any where close to the tolerances and repeatability of modern, CNC machinery. As for the stuff about "computer programmers" while it is true that the initial program and blue prints are dreamed up by some college grad with no machining skills, it has to be perfected by a set up man on the machine who has to have the same knowledge as the old timers, plus speed and feed rates that were never taken into account on hand fed machinery.
In short, with advances in machines, tool coatings, materials and measuring devices, the "Old timers could never DREAM of matching the quality, interchangeability, of production quantities produced today.
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Great post TAB, Thank you.
An entire generation (or maybe even two), now rely on C & C machines, and a computer program that just has to be "monitored" with a QC guy at the end to check every other one.
My Grandfather, Thomas Diamond Watchorn, was a WWII veteran, went to MIT after re-enlisting for Korea, and formed Watchorn Hydraulics, out of Miami in the late 50's.
Had a fat contract with the airlines, landing gear and aileron, flaps etc,.. systems, and NASA for the retractable launch pad, all run by hydraulic systems. Long before the days of "computer programmers" there was this generation that did it the "old fashioned way", slide rules, mathematics, and their God given brains.
Firearms used to be made this way, large precision equip. the same way. It worked, lasted longer than a lot of crap out there today, was serviceable, and was made with 99% American stuff.
Thanks again for the post. It reminds me of an America of yesterday that I wish were here today.
those pics are from the UK
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Actually the old machines, fine as they were could not come any where close to the tolerances and repeatability of modern, CNC machinery. As for the stuff about "computer programmers" while it is true that the initial program and blue prints are dreamed up by some college grad with no machining skills, it has to be perfected by a set up man on the machine who has to have the same knowledge as the old timers, plus speed and feed rates that were never taken into account on hand fed machinery.
In short, with advances in machines, tool coatings, materials and measuring devices, the "Old timers could never DREAM of matching the quality, interchangeability, of production quantities produced today.
while that is true, if you put one of those guys on a manel lathe and told them to cut a radius, they would be screwed.
One of the smartest guy I ever met was a old school machinest, the man could not read or write, but he could machine up things just from designers rough drawings on napkins and the parts would work.
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Noticed few of them used eye or ear protection.
Ear and eye protection? This is when men were men, not subject to liability lawyers that would have a field day with the practices of days gone by.
it has to be perfected by a set up man on the machine who has to have the same knowledge as the old timers, plus speed and feed rates that were never taken into account on hand fed machinery.
I think that's the point Tom. The generation that gave us the Industrial Revolution had no C&C stuff, they fabricated, calculated, put the micrometer on it, and flat out made it. No college grad ever shirked away from getting their hands dirty back than if they had a plan or idea at the manufacturing level. They do NOW, but not than.
As an example, why are there still so many "old" pieces of equip. in local machine shops?
Cause the new stuff is crap...
Go back to GM, Chrysler, or Ford during WWII. the pics match to a "T".
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I saw a program on the History Channel about rebuilding WWII aircraft. It was an English group that would buy up trashed aircraft and rebuild them using original specs. They took a ME109 crankshaft to a Diamler Benz (the original manufacturer) factory in Germany to get it rebuilt using the well worn original crankshaft, and the spec sheet (from 1943), as templates for the new crankshaft.
The DB reps said they were unable to duplicate the original with the machinery they had available. The computer controled engineering and manufacturing available in the 21st century was unable to duplicate the precision of the hand operated manufacturing of the mid 20th century. I found that to be the most interesting part of the program.
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while that is true, if you put one of those guys on a manel lathe and told them to cut a radius, they would be screwed.
One of the smartest guy I ever met was a old school machinest, the man could not read or write, but he could machine up things just from designers rough drawings on napkins and the parts would work.
That depends on whether you are talking about a "Machinist", or an "Operator" who puts parts in and takes parts out.
A Machinist would have no problem switching back and forth. I know, it's what I do ;D
Still, it was a cool post, in the 3rd or 4th picture down did you notice that the big milling machines were "Cincinnatis ".
They had to buy American for the best, because most milling and machining technology developed from Colts factory. That was why the milling machine Co. was located in Bridgeport Conn. So it was close enough to service Colt.
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Ear and eye protection? This is when men were men, not subject to liability lawyers that would have a field day with the practices of days gone by. And no workmens Comp or disability ins. , you lose an eye, or a hand, oh well sucks to be you, if you can't do your job your fired. Colt was however one of, if not the first, to have on site medical care for his workers. he took very good care of them since he picked only the best, importing some from as far away as Germany, but the company ran their lives out side work as well as in work.
it has to be perfected by a set up man on the machine who has to have the same knowledge as the old timers, plus speed and feed rates that were never taken into account on hand fed machinery.
I think that's the point Tom. The generation that gave us the Industrial Revolution had no C&C stuff, they fabricated, calculated, put the micrometer on it, and flat out made it. No college grad ever shirked away from getting their hands dirty back than if they had a plan or idea at the manufacturing level. They do NOW, but not than. It's not your field so I understand that you don't realize how important proper cutting speeds and feed rates are to precision and accuracy, NO one will achieve that with hand operated machinery, it is not possible, and I started out judging my feed rate by the color, size and shape of the chip.
As an example, why are there still so many "old" pieces of equip. in local machine shops? Because they were built like Rugers and Tanks, you will notice however that unlike in "Home shops" they are seldom if ever used for production work.
Cause the new stuff is crap...Like I said, it's not your field. The number one problem I have encountered in CNC machining is Companies that spend 10's of thousands of dollars on a piece of equipment and then try to "save" money by either not doing Maintenance until something breaks, or having it done by some old fart who is not competent but went to school with the manager. The number 2 problem I've seen is using shit tooling because the bean counters could get them cheap, then used 3 times as many because they were not the right tools for the material. Number 3 is trying to push a machine beyond it's capabilities, you will notice that in those photo's they did not try to do the work on shop size Bridgeports, the machines were LARGE.
Go back to GM, Chrysler, or Ford during WWII. the pics match to a "T". Of course, same era, same technology. It would be amazing if they did NOT match.
I saw a program on the History Channel about rebuilding WWII aircraft. It was an English group that would buy up trashed aircraft and rebuild them using original specs. They took a ME109 crankshaft to a Diamler Benz (the original manufacturer) factory in Germany to get it rebuilt using the well worn original crankshaft, and the spec sheet (from 1943), as templates for the new crankshaft.
The DB reps said they were unable to duplicate the original with the machinery they had available. The computer controled engineering and manufacturing available in the 21st century was unable to duplicate the precision of the hand operated manufacturing of the mid 20th century. I found that to be the most interesting part of the program.
He didn't want the job. There is nothing that can be done on a manual machine that can not be duplicated on a CNC, IF you have a competent Machinist. I've worked with guys trained in Germany and Holland and they were some of the laziest SOBs I ever worked with, one quit Sig because they would not let him sit on his a$$ all night, he was already so fat he could not get between the rails of the pallet changer.
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Cause the new stuff is crap...Like I said, it's not your field. The number one problem I have encountered in CNC machining is Companies that spend 10's of thousands of dollars on a piece of equipment and then try to "save" money by either not doing Maintenance until something breaks, or having it done by some old fart who is not competent but went to school with the manager. The number 2 problem I've seen is using shit tooling because the bean counters could get them cheap, then used 3 times as many because they were not the right tools for the material. Number 3 is trying to push a machine beyond it's capabilities, you will notice that in those photo's they did not try to do the work on shop size Bridgeports, the machines were LARGE.
+1 on everything else, but especially that.
I saw that first hand in the machine shop at my old plant. They bought a $200,000 machine and ran it with $6.00 cutters and then scratched their pointy little heads as to why we were buying twelve dozen cutters a month for one machining operation cycle.
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+1 on everything else, but especially that.
I saw that first hand in the machine shop at my old plant. They bought a $200,000 machine and ran it with $6.00 cutters and then scratched their pointy little heads as to why we were buying twelve dozen cutters a month for one machining operation cycle.
Exactly, a"good" endmill, Not the best, but a good quality tool can cost $ 15 for an 1/8th inch diameter tool . There are hobbiests who restore the old machines and use them, but not for production.
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Exactly, a"good" endmill, Not the best, but a good quality tool can cost $ 15 for an 1/8th inch diameter tool . There are hobbiests who restore the old machines and use them, but not for production.
$15?
I send 3 times that for a good 1/8" router bit. those still only last me about 3 days of actual use. less if its high silca wood or plastic.
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$15?
I send 3 times that for a good 1/8" router bit. those still only last me about 3 days of actual use. less if its high silca wood or plastic.
Before I got laid off we were getting 1/8 inch Ball mills for $15/ Ea, but it was also volume sale, between 4 machines we were using 8 a day (2 tools, rougher, and finish, 18 hours ) Harbor freight offers a decent coated 1/2 inch endmill (TIn 2 end) at$40 EACH.
Often it is the coating that drives the price up.
If you are routing plastic you know what I mean about speeds, unless it's glass filled you can often feed fast, but if your spindle speed goes to high you wind up melting the material, plastic is the worst to machine.
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I like whiteside 3 fulte spirals for my flush cut bits. for the 30-40 bucks nothing out there beats them. then again the hardest thing they see is teak( which do to its high silica content, just destorys tools.
PS I miss my 3 axis CNC router...
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I like whiteside 3 fulte spirals for my flush cut bits. for the 30-40 bucks nothing out there beats them. then again the hardest thing they see is teak( which do to its high silica content, just destorys tools.
PS I miss my 3 axis CNC router...
Teak ? I wish you would post pics of some of your work, Sounds very impressive.
Look on the bright side, if you are using a manual machine and start getting into trouble, all you have to do is quit cranking the handle ;D with a CNC, by the time you see the problem you've lost either the tool, the piece, or both.
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They had to buy American for the best, because most milling and machining technology developed from Colts factory. That was why the milling machine Co. was located in Bridgeport Conn. So it was close enough to service Colt.
I worked on a ship that ran COLT Pielstick engines. french design but built by Colt. not another engine in the world like thos two.. they were the first two off the test bed and in fact the ship was used as a test bed not only for the engines but for automation as well. first fully automated engine room in the states. they learned from their mistakes and made other engines better, but being original there are parts that cannot be bought. we had a milling machine and lathe onboard to keep her going.
also the engines in the post are a lot like the engine on the ship I'm on now. Man B&W. BIG!!!
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"The number one problem I have encountered in CNC machining is Companies that spend 10's of thousands of dollars on a piece of equipment and then try to "save" money by either not doing Maintenance until something breaks, or having it done by some old fart who is not competent but went to school with the manager. The number 2 problem I've seen is using shit tooling because the bean counters could get them cheap, then used 3 times as many because they were not the right tools for the material. Number 3 is trying to push a machine beyond it's capabilities, you will notice that in those photo's they did not try to do the work on shop size Bridgeports, the machines were LARGE."
+1 x 10 x 10 x 10 x 10 x 10 x 10 x .........exponent.....
Center mass hit Tom...
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Good stuff, the step Grandpa is a machinest born and educated in Germany. Doesn't have alot of nice things to say about modern production, he's worked on airplanes for a civilian manufacturer for years now. He's got his German machinest certification, what ever its caller, said it gets him a job but the U.S. doesn't have the same pay standards as Germany.
I'm moving towards the old school, love the machines but not the electronics and computers.
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The best mix would be "Old School" machinists with new CNC equipment, and materials ;D
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when it comes to machine tools, its the same as every thing else...
there is no replacment for displacment.
more mass= less vibrations= more accuracy.
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when it comes to machine tools, its the same as every thing else...
there is no replacment for displacment.
more mass= less vibrations= more accuracy.
That goes for the floor you mount them on as well. I was running an Amada CNC Punch Press in a shop that installed a Laser cutting machine, they had a 2 ft thick slab poured right next to my machine, They almost fired the Laser Operator because he could not hold a tolerance. Then they put it on a 4 foot thick slab on the other side of the shop from my pounding machine and had no more problems ;D
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true. I recently did a remodel at a print shop, the floor where the shear was instaled is 3' thick of 5000 psi mix. yet every time it strikes, it still shakes the building. (60x120 tilt up) under the press its 7' thick.
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That goes for the floor you mount them on as well. I was running an Amada CNC Punch Press in a shop that installed a Laser cutting machine, they had a 2 ft thick slab poured right next to my machine, They almost fired the Laser Operator because he could not hold a tolerance. Then they put it on a 4 foot thick slab on the other side of the shop from my pounding machine and had no more problems ;D
Been there, done that.....we have to cut a huge hole in the floor for our new machine. Just needs to be isolated though, spec only calls for 10" thick, 5000 psi slab, no seams and 2 rebar levels. Funny, I was just reviewing the installation spec today. It is on the far side of the shop though. We have no large turret presses, just the press brakes and they don't shake the building like an Amada is prone too do...Which model were you working with Tom?
My last shop had two turret presses and four 275 Ton Amada press brakes as well as two high power lasers. The whole building shook when were full tilt boogie....!
P.S. I convinced management to buy American made Cincinnati lasers and two press brakes. For what it's worth, they were the right price and their service is second to none, IMO...
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Amada, Pega, Coma, and King models, also ran an Octo for a company that made gun cases. I've never run the Lasers, but I liked the Cincinnati milling centers I ran, T/C had a couple. All the Cincy press brakes I ran were mechanical, with the big fly wheel, of the CNC models I ran I preferred the Trumpf over the Amada as the controller was more user friendly. Of the Milling centers, Haas sucked the worst, great machine, controller SUCKS. Simplest was Matsuura, but I liked Robo Drill as well.
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Amada, Pega, Coma, and King models, also ran an Octo for a company that made gun cases. I've never run the Lasers, but I liked the Cincinnati milling centers I ran, T/C had a couple. All the Cincy press brakes I ran were mechanical, with the big fly wheel, of the CNC models I ran I preferred the Trumpf over the Amada as the controller was more user friendly. Of the Milling centers, Haas sucked the worst, great machine, controller SUCKS. Simplest was Matsuura, but I liked Robo Drill as well.
I'm familiar with the Coma, I've programed for an older model for 10 years, still used the paper tapes for numerical control. It was something you could make a mess of if you weren't carefull with the programs. This is my first exprerience with the Cincy brakes but I'm not responsible for the brakes, only the laser install, maintenance, service scheduling and back up operator. We have a small Haas mill and hopes for a few more but business has gotta get better before the beancounters cough another million bucks in capital money. We did look at the Trumpf laser and press brakes but those guys are really proud of their stuff, clearly 30% more for a similar machine to the Cincys... They make at least two of their new lasers and several turret presses in Hartford now. Even their resonators are made in Harford...I went down their last fall and got the nickel tour AND and overpriced lunch...very impressive facility.
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The best mix would be "Old School" machinists with new CNC equipment, and materials ;D
I'll agree with that 100%.
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I'm familiar with the Coma, I've programed for an older model for 10 years, still used the paper tapes for numerical control. It was something you could make a mess of if you weren't carefull with the programs. This is my first exprerience with the Cincy brakes but I'm not responsible for the brakes, only the laser install, maintenance, service scheduling and back up operator. We have a small Haas mill and hopes for a few more but business has gotta get better before the beancounters cough another million bucks in capital money. We did look at the Trumpf laser and press brakes but those guys are really proud of their stuff, clearly 30% more for a similar machine to the Cincys... They make at least two of their new lasers and several turret presses in Hartford now. Even their resonators are made in Harford...I went down their last fall and got the nickel tour AND and overpriced lunch...very impressive facility.
WOW, I haven't seen anyone use Tapes since Thompson Center back in the mid 80's ;D
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My Old Man used to work in places like that back when he was a Tool Maker
I have sent him the link to have a look at
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My Old Man used to work in places like that back when he was a Tool Maker
I have sent him the link to have a look at
He may get pissed at me then ;D