The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Defense and Tactics => Topic started by: philw on June 05, 2009, 07:26:59 AM
-
just wondering if you can help out a Mate
the aria he is up North of Australia
this is a situation he was in last Sunday
40 Person All in Brawl
I was just finishing washing up at about 8pm on Sunday night when the sound of a large crowd came across the cool night air. At first I thought that it was some kids playing footy in the local park but as the sound became louder my wife and I could hear the language, threats and sounds of things getting smashed. I went to put our bin out and while I was doing so (and trying to work out where the fight was going on) a bloke ran up my street carrying a bloody cane knife. I went back inside and decided that my .223 needed a thorough cleaning from the previous weekend so I took it out of the safe and into the lounge room.
The sounds continued and the odd fkwit ran up the street carrying iron bars, bits of timber etc. The "riot" was about 150 metres away in another street and things just kept going and going.
After about 20 mins to half an hour the police began to arrive and shortly after the noise died down.
The next morning the Scenes of Crime people were still at the house where the "riot" occured taking photos etc.
It turns out that a large group of people from Woorabinda (Aboriginal community about and hour and a half West of Rockhampton) had turned up at someones house armed with iron bars, knives etc and attempted to get in. It said in the paper that the people in the house (I suspect well known to the other group) held them at bay until police arrived but they were pretty pissed off it took half an hour to get there. In the end only one person was injured from getting belted with an iron bar and the property damage doesn't seem to be too bad.
We had a similar (but smaller) episode in my street a couple of years ago and it was pretty bloody frightening watching people a few doors up getting bashed in their own front yard by drunken louts. A car was even set on fire.
I made it pretty clear to everyone what would happen to them if they entered my property and we didn't suffer any damage at all. I couldn't go and assist the neighbours because it would leave my wife and young children exposed so it was a sad case of protect my own arse and leave everyone else to fend for themselves!
I can only imagine how much worse it would have been for the people a street over when there were 40 of the bastards terrorising the neighbourhood.
My point (finally) is that I would urge everyone to consider how they will react if they get caught up in one of these "riots" given the fact that in a large regional city like Rockhampton you can be sure that the police will take at least 20 minutes to respond. That is a long time when these thugs are in full battle mode.
Everyone needs to do some planning about how they will preserve their safety if something like this goes off in their street and gets totally out of control. Obviously if you have thugs attempting to set your house on fire, or trying to break down the front door with your family inside then we all know what needs to be done and will set about doing it as best we can. Where things get difficult is deciding if/when/how we will respond to the destruction of our property. Do we resolutely stay inside and not get involved if they start trashing our car in the driveway? What if they start killing the family dog or throwing rocks through the windows? How do we react if they actually manage to break in to the old lady's house across the road etc?
Anyone else given this any thought?
so as he asked, what would be a way to react with this type of situation
I am interested in 2 ways
firstly the USA way
secondly how we could legaly over here, remembering here in Australia owning a firearm for self defense is a no no
as we really only have Reasonable force for self defense
-
Reasonable force versus firearms, whats the difference? Here in the US the basic rule of thumb is you can use deadly force (of whatever flavor) if a "reasonable person" would believe that their life or the life another was in danger. This means no killing over property and only assisting someone else if you can make the case that their life is danger. There are two big exceptions to this rule, both covered under what is called the "castle doctrine". The first part of that,which appllys inevery state that I know of, goes back to English common law's notion that a man's home is his castle. There is zero duty to retreat and just by entering, they are presenting a threat. The larger and more controversial version of this is that there is no duty to retreat anywhere. You still can't kill over property, but you can stand your ground, and if they threaten your life.....welll. Only some states have expanded it this far and a wise man wouldn't test it. How does this differ from OZ?
FQ13
-
Phil,
I think he handeled it well. He had no choice but to protect his own.
I know on my street I am probably the only armed house (other than my GF two doors down). If the SHTF here I would call a friend who could be here in under 10 minutes and other than that it would be 'protect my own'.
If it is only property damage being done to neighbors "Oh Well, they need to man up and arm themselves". Quite honestly there isn't anyone around here I give a shit about enough to put my life in jepardy for (and yes, I actually know my neighbors).
If they start onto my property they get one warning (if there is time) then it's shoot to defend.
-
Phil,
I've got to agree with both posts thus far. My home, even in MA, is covered under the Castle Doctrine, my neighbors house is his problem. We are talking about an isolated incident and not some form of all out rioting of thousands of people here. Should it get to that point, I'm bugging out anyway and again, my neighbors will have to decide whats best for them and theirs...
Your buddy did the right thing IMO...
-
In Iowa we don't have the "Castle" Law. As of now we are to retreat if possible and let them do whatever to the property. Intent, Capability and Opprotunity... Does said BG have the intent to kill or harm you.. Does he have the capability.. Does he have the Opprotunity. The three questions that have to be asked and answered in Iowa within ohh.. I'd say 3 milliseconds..
J
-
As long as they are focused on beating the crap out of somebody else, I would leave them be.
If they ended up at your door you'll have one chance to convince them they are going to be making a life ending mistake.
If they don't leave it's as hard and fast as you can hit them.
You maybe surprised to find out a home owner with a rifle is scarier to a mob than several cops in riot gear.
The cops have rules concerning the use of force, the homeowner maybe just crazy enough to just start blazing away.
-
You maybe surprised to find out a home owner with a rifle is scarier to a mob than several cops in riot gear.
The cops have rules concerning the use of force, the homeowner maybe just crazy enough to just start blazing away.
Phil, you need to move with your wife to Texas. Big skies, people spread out, hot as blue blazes in the summer. You would feel a home. ;)
Any act of violence is brought before the Grand Jury here. If they believe a crime was comitted they will bring a decision to prosecute. The situation you decribed, a home owner defending himself, his family, or another person, it is unlikely a True Bill would be brought. Even if it is the Prosecution has to convince 12 Texans that the defense was not warrented. Not an easy job.
I think that the sight of my "Evil Black Rifle" would deter most crowds of drunken rioter. ;D
-
If you have no other option then defend yourself and your family and f$#k the law, it's better to see your family on visiting day than visit a stone in a cemetery. "Stuff", things can be replaced, lives can't.
Here in NH, in my home I have no duty to retreat, on the street I do, however I'm nearly 50 with a prior heart attack, so I will not be running far or fast.
In respect to defending "others" neighbors etc. circumstances would have to dictate reaction.
-
In New Jersey we have a cutsey little Dimocrat rule that says you have to retreat or escape until you are cornered with no possible escape path and be in fear for your life- all that before you can fire on an attacker. So that pretty much leaves out defending the neighborhood, although if a neighbor was going to be killed and it was one of the ones I like, I'd probably forget about the rules and live off the taxpayer for the rest of my life.
It's a different thing everywhere because we all have different rules.
-
If some mob shows up and is intent on breaking into my house, with my family in it, they get one warning, in the form of one shot into the crowd. If that doesn't work then I'll start emptying mags, I don't want to hurt anyone, but I'll have very little sympathy for a crazed mob with my family's or my well being at stake. If its my neighbor then things get a bit complicated, I'd have to seriously study the situation and make a decision. I don't think I'd allow them to be hurt, if I felt that was the case I'd intervene, but I wouldn't compromise my safety or put myself in a legal situation to save a neighbor's car. It's easy to say 'they're on their own' but you got to remember the women folk and kids, and how you going to carry that neighbor dieing because you didn't want to open yourself up to legal liability. It's probably easy to say that living in Texas, so I can understand if you feel differently. Rocks through window equals shot, Molitov bombs equals shot, and hurting my animal property equals shot. But mob standing outside yelling isn't code black.
And the story doesn't say why the mob is assaulting this fellow, or I missed it. I'm sure your law in Australia are alot like UK, defend yourself and its life in prison.
-
If some mob shows up and is intent on breaking into my house, with my family in it, they get one warning, in the form of one shot into the crowd.
I like that. My wife and I were watching a nature show about bear attacks and I said, "If I was out there and a bear came at me I'd give him a warning shot....right between the eyes. Then if he didn't run away I'd start laying into him".
-
I like that. My wife and I were watching a nature show about bear attacks and I said, "If I was out there and a bear came at me I'd give him a warning shot....right between the eyes. Then if he didn't run away I'd start laying into him".
You know that the shrill scream of someone who's profusely bleeding after a loud gunshot would turn most mobs into a bunch of Frenchmen. But I still can't wrap my head around gathering up a bunch of folks to tear up some guy's house and beat the crap out of people.
-
Agree with all previous posts philw, my .02 cents if personally involved in a "non firearm friendly" country, would be to remember, the "mob" are pretty much NOT going to have a firearm. Sticks, clubs, bats, knives, tire irons, yes, but in Australia, probably no guns.
If directly involved in a confrontation that makes you fearful for you and your families life, a 2 second bit of warning shots, should disperse the riff raff, the hardcore ones are the ones to watch out for.
Defend yourself and your family. Take it up with the law later, at least you will be alive, but defend your home and family.
Plus, we'll send Marshal'ette "down there" . ::)
-
Thinking about it, bear spray. If roaming mobs are a big problem I'd pick up some riot control gear, CS grenade, flashbangs, rubber riot grenades. I've seen them all on ammunitiontogo.com, sounds like a chemical less-lethal was made for this situation. But my favorite is landmines. ;D Those are getting harder and harder to find around here though.
-
Phil
We haven't heard back from you. The consensus here in the US is that you stay inside, call the cops and ride it out. IF they come inside, all bets are off and you're in the clear legally. Is that the case in Oz?
FQ13
-
ok
ta for the repons everyone
few things
depending on the state ( this is mostly NSW however I also have this where i live however I need to check more )
You have the right to defend yourself.
However the means you use must be justified.
If you use lethal force, you must be able to argue that your life - or that of some other - was directly threatened at that moment. IOW, you can't use lethal force against someone merely because they're in your house, after they've commenced to retreat, or if you have an opportunity to retreat.
You may not prepare to defend yourself. The theory is that if you have time to prepare, you also have time to retreat or call the cops. That means you aren't allowed to have a gun for self defence (or any other kind of weapon) but you ARE allowed to use anything that you "happen" to have available at the time. That is, if you can get it out of the gun-safe in time. If you do have time for that, you'll need rto give your lawyer a good argument as to why you had a gun out of the safe at (say) 2.00AM.
Same goes for any other item used as a weapon. If you have a baseball bat, you should also have a ball and a glove. Otherwise the prosecution can argue that your only reason for having the bat was as a weapon.
If you have a "weapon", then you must be planning to kill somebody. etc, etc.
NSW - thanks to John Tingle - has clarified the situation somewhat.
I am looking on more info on the laws though I will post it when I get it ;D
-
So if you have to use a firearm to defend yourself, your best bet is to not stop shooting until you've also gotten the lawyers and law makers.
Sad, sad thing you got goin on there. You can not prepare to defend yourself. That is a crime in itself. >:(
-
That means you aren't allowed to have a gun for self defence (or any other kind of weapon) but you ARE allowed to use anything that you "happen" to have available at the time. By PhilW
Ok. I had to pause, open a beer, drink and then return. I saw that what you typed was still there, and so now, having just cracked my second, am prepared to respond. (Tom if my spelling isn't up to snuff, I beg your indulgence due to extenuating circumstances). Let me get this this straight. YOU MAY NOT HAVE A WEAPON FOR DEFENSE??????? This means that you are obligated by law to remain defenseless in your own home. Locks on your doors presume a presumptive need for pro-active defense. Ditto an alarm system. Likewise a working phone. Passive, yes, but still presuming a need. These are OK yes? What happens when these fail? Are you just supposed to say "oh bugger I wish the bobby's had been here sooner"? I mean come on phil. I can see, though not agree with, the gun control bit, but to say that having a weapon as plan B if someone breaks in is criminal? What the hell happened to y'all? This is insane. How many prosecuters or cops or judges down there don't wonder if an unsatisfied customer might show up to make a complaint? What about battered wives, people in bad neighborhoods etc.? When did planning for active SD become a no no, even if it is with a cricket bat? I'm ot blaming you obviously, but I am flummoxed.
FQ13 who has finished the 2nd beer
-
You may not prepare to defend yourself? The theory is that if you have time to prepare, you also have time to retreat or call the cops. That means you aren't allowed to have a gun for self defense (or any other kind of weapon) but you ARE allowed to use anything that you "happen" to have available at the time? That is, if you can get it out of the gun-safe in time. If you do have time for that, you'll need rto give your lawyer a good argument as to why you had a gun out of the safe at (say) 2.00AM.
Same goes for any other item used as a weapon. If you have a baseball bat, you should also have a ball and a glove. Otherwise the prosecution can argue that your only reason for having the bat was as a weapon.
If you have a "weapon", then you must be planning to kill somebody. etc, etc.
??????????????????? I'm still trying to process this philw. Deep Breath, walk away, come back, shaking head in disbelief,
Get Mean Ass Dogs? If the dogs are mean, they had time and been trained to prepare for an attack, an since you didn't order the dogs to retreat, or call the cops you are also guilty,............I need a beer, ......I'm so sorry phil, do you have a big uncle or bouncer friend that can stay with you? Oh, wait if you have that, than you would be prepared for defending yourself, and found breaking the law against an angry intruder,....That can be said if you studied self-defense, karate, etc,...and beat them up also.
You were prepared to defend yourself and didn't retreat,... AAAAAAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!
(http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm182/twyacht/mad0233.gif)
-
Sounds like UK laws to me. No defense allowed, give up your stuff and life unless you can run faster.
Complete reversal of natural and Gods law!
-
Sounds like UK laws to me. No defense allowed, give up your stuff and life unless you can run faster.
Complete reversal of natural and Gods law!
Amen brother. Retreat Australia Fair. Jesus! If you want to immigrate phil,you'll find plenty of sponsors, I'd personally reccomend someone near Austin TX, maybe true tex will help you out.
FQ13
-
hehe I know what you guys mean
I am still looking for clafification on how the laws are over here, as I don't 110% know
what I do know is you need to feel threatened and need to be justified
there is SOOOOOO much BS involved
I am just waiting for the forms we get handed out that needs to be filled out in triplicate just to have fun......
-
also just have to say
it is not that bad over here Aust is a very good place, just some aria's are bad, I stay away from them
I can not see me leaving where I am
although we have a Bikie War going on all over the place another shooting in Sydney, that will have Payback done I can guarantee that.
I get to go hunting 15 mins away, the range is 20 Mins away
and I can still get Ammo :P
-
Philw
I presently have 3 loaded pistols and a loaded shotgun in the house. They are well secured and safe but I can get to at least two within 10 seconds.
I like the police in Texas but they are not there to protect me. The best they can do is write reports and try to find my killers.
I am the primary defense for my family and myself. If something bad happens I will try to defend myself with anything that is at hand. And I do have the means at hand.
Bring your family to Texas man. We have snakes and scorpions and a few aliigators in the southeast but nothing a man can't handled.
We even speak a form of english. ;D
-
Bring your family to Texas man. We have snakes and scorpions and a few aliigators in the southeast but nothing a man can't handled.
We even speak a form of english. ;D
what no spiders, I am used to having most of the wildlife trying to kill me hehe also alligator's have nothing on a Big Salty ;)
-
Philw
I presently have 3 loaded pistols and a loaded shotgun in the house. They are well secured and safe but I can get to at least two within 10 seconds.
I like the police in Texas but they are not there to protect me. The best they can do is write reports and try to find my killers.
I am the primary defense for my family and myself. If something bad happens I will try to defend myself with anything that is at hand. And I do have the means at hand.
Bring your family to Texas man. We have snakes and scorpions and a few aliigators in the southeast but nothing a man can't handled.
We even speak a form of english. ;D
Come to NH, we have even less restrictive gun laws than Texas, We DO have snow and 4-5 months of cold, HOWEVER, it only rains for a few days at a time, and we have NO poisonous snakes, scorpions, OR alligators, plus there is still public land to hunt on and all you need to hunt on some one else's land is your hunting license and the owners permission. (no "leases" although it may cost you a few steaks. )
FQ, I'll let it go this time but I'm telling you, get Firefox, you just click on the underlined word and click on the one you were trying to spell and your all set.
-
what no spiders, I am used to having most of the wildlife trying to kill me hehe also alligator's have nothing on a Big Salty ;)
Spiders? Texas has plenty of those. I was driving into Big Bend National Park late one night, about 2am. The roads held the heat, I was exhausted after driving ten straight hours from Austin, and the road started glowing green. I thought that maybe the beer hadn't passed completely from my system and woke up my friends. What we found were literally hundreds of desert tarantulas (part of a migration, an excersize in figuring out what the hell the chicken was doing, god knows?) camped out on the road. Great big hairy buggers too. You'll feel right at home. ;D
FQ13 PLus, chicks dig the Aussie accent
-
ok I have a clearer answer for you on how it works over here not everyware though
this is Based on NSW as I have been emailing the bloke that created the new laws
his name is John Tingle, he was the founder of the Shooters Party in NSW and the first elected in to NSW Senate, the greens hate them more now as TSP having 2 members elected now hold the balance of power hehe
Hi Phil
I'm not surprised you would have trouble finding the original Bill(s). They were incorporated into a third Bill by the Government in about 2001, and the names have changed.
The two Bills I had passed were the Home Invasion (Occupants Protection) Bill, 1998, and the Workplace (Occupants Protection) Bill, 2000.
The first gave any person legally in a house, the right of self defence, defence of others and defence of property against an intruder, when the person was being attacked, within the house; or had formed a reasonable apprehension that he, or any other person legally in the house, was about to be attacked. The Bill gave a "Parliament-guaranteed" right (words used in the preamble to the Bill) of defence. It stated that the defender could use any means of defence which he thought were necessary.
It further gave the defender Immunity from Civil or Criminal Prosection; and stipulated that, if, in some way, the defender was charged, after an act of defence, then the onus of proof was reversed, and, in a court, the defendant did not have to offer a defence, or to explain or justify his actions in any way. The onus was on the Prosecution to prove that at the time the defender took whatever action he did, that he did not really believe, in his own mind, that that particular action was necessary.
Obviously nobody can prove what was in another person's mind at any time, and the Opposition objected to that provision, pointing out the impossibility. I pointed out in debate that that was precisely the reason the provision was there, because my intention was to swing the weight of the law behind the good guys, and away from where it so often seem to lie - in support of the bad guys.
The Bill became law on September 9 1998.
Later, I introduced the second Bill, which extended the same right of defence to anyone legally in the workplace. The "workplace" was defined as anywhere someone was legally working - shop, office, hole in the road, seat of a tractor, etc. That came in in 2000.
The government saw the response to the two Bills and introduced a third Bill, the Crimes Act (Self Defence) Amendment Bill in about 2001, incorporating the provisions of my two Bills. Announcing the Bill, the then Premier Bob Carr told a Media Conference: "This is something John Tingle started, and which we should have done, and are now taking up."
That Bill further extended the right of defence to a person going about their lawful business, anywhere, who was victim of an unprovoked attack; or who formed the reasonable belief that such an attack was about to happen. In all cases the right of defence extended to self defence and defence of others; but the right of defence of property was reduced in terms of immunity.
Phil the first Bill was introduced in December 1995, before Port Arthur, and I deliberately wrote into it, that defence was allowable using "any" means available. The intention was to allow the use of any weapon, including a firearm, if available, and to eliminate any question of "equal" or "reasonable" force.
What it did was to codify the Common Law right of self defence, which was vague and ambiguous, and could not be relied on as a defence in a court case. It took until September 1998 to pass through the Parliament - a hard-fought 3 years!
Obviously, after Port Arthur, when we had to lock up our guns and separate ammunition, it became less likely that a firearm would be readily available for defence, but the Bills meant that if a firearm was available, it could be used, and immunity would continue.
When the first Bill was proclaimed there was an outcry from judges and legal eagles that it was an invitation to violent reactions against an attacker. When they all started carrying on, like that, I knew my Bills were right!
John
-
Good on y'all phil!! It sounds about the same as in the US. Outside the home, walk away if you can, inside, enter at your own risk. The workplace provisions go even further than some of our state law. Now all you have to do is make it legal to keep a firearm in the home for self defense and you're good to go.
FQ13
-
Well i made it a point that everyone in my house can protect themselves. We all know where we keep the loaded firearms and the ones we keep are familiar to all of us. Ammo is in no short supply and you might think im nuts but i have eazy access to my roof(death from above). So if any one tries to envade my home they have to go through me and 2 very well armed ladies with attitudes.