The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Tactical Rifle & Carbine => Topic started by: fightingquaker13 on June 08, 2009, 01:18:30 AM
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OK. I bragged on buying my new Saiga earlier. Its 7.62x39. I want to know from AK owners out there (this is my my first) three things.
1) Is a stock Saiga with high caps 922R compliant or do I need to change the gas piston or something if I use US made mags?
2) What mags would you reccomend?
3)As far as as optics, should I bother, and if so what? This is a TEOTWAWKI weapon and a range/hog hunting toy. I was thinking about a red dot, but how do I mount it? Shoud I even bother? My budget is about two bills max including rings etc. Advice?
FQ13 Who is still loving the fact that I now own, not just an evil black rifle, but a super evil one as its one of those Roosskie ones.Once again, kiss my ass Sarah Brady, God I love this country, and I pity Phil. ;D
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1.) What is "TEOTWAWKI"?
2.) Who is "Phil"?
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1.) What is "TEOTWAWKI"?
2.) Who is "Phil"?
TEOTWAWKI = The End Of The World As We Know It
Phil is a poor bloke from down under who lives under oppressive laws and loves that which he cannot obtain (legally).
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http://forum.saiga-12.com/lofiversion/index.php/t18530.html
"You have a Saiga-7.62x39 and want to use high capacity magazines. Since high capacity magazines are considered “unsporting”, and would be in violation of 922®. Your rifle with mag has 14 parts. Use U.S. made mags and one additional U.S. made part like a gas piston and you are good to go."
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It is my understanding that you may NOT use AK magazines in a Saiga without converting it to 922r compliance standards. As I understand it you would only need to swap 4 parts (2 if using US mags, but never count on US mags as compliance parts as all F-troop needs to do is show you owned or possessed a foreign mag to bust you). The issue with the Saiga is that the hammer, trigger and sear are custom items because of the stock, so you can't just drop in Red Star or G-2 parts and call it good. I would recommend you just convert it all the way to AK style and call it good or run with low-cap mags.
P.S. I understand that Siaga's need a new bullet guide (feed-ramp) to run standard AK mags too, you might just want to have the thing professionally altered. More money but less hassle.
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The dealer who sold me this thing offered an interesting (though I'm not sure valid) take on 922r. His theory is that it doesn't apply to the Saiga as it doesn't fall under the criteria of the old AWB, eg, no psitol grip, threaded barrel, folding stock etc. Personally, since a US mag counts as three parts (mag, floor plate and follower) and a new gas piston is $20, I'll go that route, but I am curious to hear your thoughts about this assinine law here. Likewise, what abot optics? I really would like to hear from some AK guys here. Help a "comrade" out. ;D
FQ13
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The dealer who sod me this thing offered an interesting (though I'm not sure valid) take on 922r. His theory isthat it doesn't apply to the Saiga as it doesn't fall under the criteria of the old AWB, eg, no pitol grip, treaded barrel, folding stock etc. Personally, since a US mag conts as three parts (mag, floor plate and follower) and a new gas piston is $20, I'll go that route, but I am curious to here your thoughts about this assinine law here. Likewise, what abot optics? I really would like to hear from some AK guys here. Help a "comrade" out. ;D
FQ13
On an AK I would not bother with optics, it really doesn't have the range or accuracy to make it worth while, that's not the type of shooting it was designed for
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922r is left vauge so it can be bent to match whatever situation it needs to when a conviction is wanted (against YOU the gun owner). The more times you read through the laws, the more holes you'll see.
Lawyers have told me if you shoot somebody with ANY kind of assult weapon and it goes to court its all down hill for you. "Just based on looks of the gun the other lawyer will label you a violent gun nut for owning such a thing. Make sure if your using something for home defense that its got a wood stock, a shoulder strap, and looks like an old hunting gun. Nothing remotely like a military firearm in any way." Dont ask why I had to talk to lawyers on this... Use what you like, but dont think the prosecuting attorney isnt going to be all over telling the jury how your a premedative nut for "owning military style weapons"!
When it goes to court (and it will regardless of whether or not the guy dies) it doesnt matter what other guns you have. Those wont be admissed as evidence. Only the one you used will be. If its a "military style", or "black gun". Grease up your hole!
Anyone can argue whats said here... These are not my words, not my theories. This is what happened. Think "it wont happen like that to me"? Grease up that hole! And make sure you've got PLENTY of cash for a GOOD defense lawyer and the fines! ;D
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Sad, but true. SD doesn't stop when the last shot is fired, it just moves to stage two. Only this time, its decided by lawyers, not guns. However much you spent on guns, prepare to spend ten time that for a good deense attorney, and double that if the perp or his estate (if you've done your job right) sues you. It sucks, but its true. You lose by having to shoot a violent criminal who broke into your home, and you lose again when/if you have to go to court. Still, better tried by twelve than carried by six.
FQ13 Who is still excited by his new gun, but a little bummed out by the fact that owning the best (LEGAL DAMN IT) tool for the job will doubtless be held against him. It makes me agree more and more with TAB who says that the standard for legal guns should be that anything LEOs can own, a civilian can own. No further questions, nor presumptions.
FQ13
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Lawyers have told me if you shoot somebody with ANY kind of assult weapon and it goes to court its all down hill for you. "Just based on looks of the gun the other lawyer will label you a violent gun nut for owning such a thing. Make sure if your using something for home defense that its got a wood stock, a shoulder strap, and looks like an old hunting gun. Nothing remotely like a military firearm in any way." Dont ask why I had to talk to lawyers on this... Use what you like, but dont think the prosecuting attorney isnt going to be all over telling the jury how your a premedative nut for "owning military style weapons"!
While I can appreciate your advice, I think it is misplaced.
First, a good shoot is a good shoot. Know the law, follow the law, and you'll be fine.
Second, this philosophy may have been true 10 or 20 years ago, but the world is a different place. M4 Carbines are quickly becoming acceptable mainstream SD weapons.
Third, if that is what your lawyer told you, find another lawyer. Any lawyer fresh out of community college law school could shoot down (no pun intended) that argument. I can think of 5 responsible justifications right off the top of my head.
Now if we are talking about using an AK style weapons platform, then yes, the battle will be a little harder. But it's a public image battle, not a legal battle. The Supreme Court has ruled that (paraphrasing) if Deadly Force is justified then the manner in which the force is applied is of no consequence. Be it a rifle, pistol, knife, flashlight, car, pen, etc.. The use of an AK in a shooting that may be ambiguous or excessive, may influence a prosecutor, but so will several other factors. Once again, refer to rule one and I think you'll be fine. The prosecutor may not like it, but prosecutor's are driven by winning not necessarily what's right, especially ones with political aspirations. They all like to have perfect conviction records so they can use those as good springboards to a political career. The cherry pick cases they know they can win hands down. If you follow the law, this works in your favor.
USSA-1
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Good advice. But "get a better lawyer" is much easier to say than do! Those F'ers dont work cheap! And dont give discounts because you were in the right to do what you did. I have to admit I dont have tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars laying around just in case something like this happens. Dont think the average person here does either. The quality of your lawyer will also depend on where you live. I know I couldnt afford to fly a better one into town. And got the best I could find that would work for the the thousands it cost me just to get him (why I'm not in jail today).
Dont forget the procecuting attorney has as much say as anyone on who's going to be in your jury. Will he pick soccer moms, an office workers he knows have never held a gun before, and are afraid of them... YEP. Then he knows once he says "your obviously a premedative nut for owning, training with, and using military style firearms" that image is now in the jury's minds. Along with him standing there as close to them as he can with your "threatening looking gun in his hands". Your lawyer objecting to his comments isnt going to just erase whats now in their heads.
How the law SHOULD work. And how if DOES work... All I can tell you is what I saw first hand. What I learned is our legal system exists to make money anyway they can. Guilt or inocosence has damn little to do with any of it.
Did I overhear a conversation about my case, & where my lawyer talked to the judge about playing golf that evening? Yes. Should I have had to go to court at all? No. Could I have easily been convicted and got locked up. No dought in my mind!
I know what I saw. How things "SHOULD" be has nothing to do with our legal system. Everyones free to imagin how things will happen to "them" though. Good luck! & Best wishes. Your free to get yourself into as much trouble as you can afford to get out of.
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Check here for the AK XS. I have one on mine and I like it. (You'll need the sight tool from Tapco to push the front sight barrel.)
http://xssights.com/store/specialty.html
Check here for the Docter Optic Red Dot from LaRue. Type in AK-IronDot and it comes up.
http://larue.com/
You'll need a Campy Sight Tool to change the rear sight out. Easy to use.
http://redstararms.com/
Now go have fun!
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http://www.thecountryshed.com/ak47_scope_mounts.htm (http://www.thecountryshed.com/ak47_scope_mounts.htm)
Something along the lines of this with a red dot.
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I don't think I'd want to replace my upper recever with a thirty dollar part. There are quad rail foregrips, from $40-90,that seem like a safer bet for a red dot.
FQ13
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I couldn't find what I was looking for. I've seen it in person. It's the top part of the receiver with a picatinny rail on it. That was the best I could find on short notice to give an idea.
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I couldn't find what I was looking for. I've seen it in person. It's the top part of the receiver with a picatinny rail on it. That was the best I could find on short notice to give an idea.
And thanks for looking. Right now, I'm just trying to play the 922r compliance game. Have I mentioned how much I hate that stupid reg? I really don't want to change a thing on the saiga (minus may some optics and a quick mod to take standard AK mags). Its just fine as is. However, to be legal, I've ordered this silly looking M-4 style stock with a pistol grip just because its easy to install and counts as 2 compliant parts. I relly prefer the sporter look, I just want to use high caps. AAAARGH! >:(
FQ13
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I don't think I'd want to replace my upper recever with a thirty dollar part. There are quad rail foregrips, from $40-90,that seem like a safer bet for a red dot.
FQ13
That "upper receiver" is nothing but a sheet metal cover for the moving parts. But if you WANT to spend 3X the money for plastic, hey, it's your money.
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That "upper receiver" is nothing but a sheet metal cover for the moving parts. But if you WANT to spend 3X the money for plastic, hey, it's your money.
Actually Tom, you're the man to ask, being a machinist. My concern is about the closeness of the fit and whether that will lead to slop. If this is an unfounded concern, I'm happy. I just was a bit sucpicious about poor fit and poor material quality. You worked for SIG,I'd appreciate your insight.
FQ13
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Actually Tom, you're the man to ask, being a machinist. My concern is about the closeness of the fit and whether that will lead to slop. If this is an unfounded concern, I'm happy. I just was a bit sucpicious about poor fit and poor material quality. You worked for SIG,I'd appreciate your insight.
FQ13
The shape of it and the way the front locks in should hold it reasonably stable. The round top and that step on the left side should lock it into position.
If the mounting screws holes are all the way through the metal make sure your mounting screws do not interfere with moving parts, they can be shortened with a file or grinder, but make sure you deburr them or they will not work.
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My suggestion would be to stick with the forarm mount. If you attach anything to, or mount anything over the sheet metal receiver cover your going to have to re-zero everytime you take the gun apart for cleaning... :(
NICE!:
(http://www.thecountryshed.com/M2inst.jpg)
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My suggestion would be to stick with the forarm mount. If you attach anything to, or mount anything over the sheet metal receiver cover your going to have to re-zero everytime you take the gun apart for cleaning... :(
NICE!:
(http://www.thecountryshed.com/M2inst.jpg)
Does an AK have a zero or just a distinct probability?
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True enough. Their only accurate enough to be the most successfull combat firearm ever fielded...
Drop me anywhere in the world and I'm within walking distance of more ammunition and spare magazines...
Will you really care if the 10 year old Chinese / North Korean / any other country in the world kid weilding it shoots at you and hits you in the heart, or the lungs? My guess is he's got the thing on full auto, and it wont be just one bullet going through you as you try to hand him a plate full of food because their all starving.
Time for America to wake up and see the world for what it REALLY is.
AK's were designed so ANYBODY could rely on them 100%. I'd take that kids gun and fight naked over all the gear on the soldier if I needed to defend my life!
(http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/pt/photos/2008/06/080614_Kid_and_Gun.jpg)
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True enough. Their only accurate enough to be the most successfull combat firearm ever fielded...
Drop me anywhere in the world and I'm within walking distance of more ammunition and spare magazines...
Will you really care if the 10 year old Chinese / North Korean / any other country in the world kid weilding it shoots at you and hits you in the heart, or the lungs? My guess is he's got the thing on full auto, and it wont be just one bullet going through you as you try to hand him a plate full of food because their all starving.
Time for America to wake up and see the world for what it REALLY is.
AK's were designed so ANYBODY could rely on them 100%. I'd take that kids gun and fight naked over all the gear on the soldier if I needed to defend my life!
(http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/pt/photos/2008/06/080614_Kid_and_Gun.jpg)
If I understand what your are saying, you are fully capable of firing a weapon that any illiterate, peasant can?
I kid. I kid.
I understand the whole concept, I just think the whole idea of scopes on AKs is funny. A red dot is fine, but other than that, gimme some irons and the general hostile direction and jacketed lead will be dealt in that general area. It takes more men logistically to care for wounded. The dead just lie there.
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Yeah. I'm with you on magnification of sights on an AK. I like the red dot idea myself, but personally I dont think they're worth the trade off of adding size, weight, and fragility on my weapon. To each their own. And when in combat you can always pop off the glass optic and go back to iron quick enough if your still alive...
That being said. Yes, I do have an Eotech on my AR-10. Always good to try different things! And after dealing with all the JUNK AR's I handled in the military, but still hearing EVERYBODY swear AR's were the best thing since Adam found out eve wasnt just good to look at. I wanted to set up an AR on my own hopeing for better results... Now I know I should have spent the money on three or four AK's instead. Hindsight!
Not being able to read isnt going to stop that kid from sticking his AK in that soldiers back and popping off a few. The world is an ugly place in time of war. We should ALL give it a LOT of thought. Having whats trendy and cool isnt going to get you home at night. ;)