He's a damn fool and the range officer and range should loose certification!
But who is the biggest fool here? The camera guy, the range officer, or the two shooters assigned to the targets on each side of him?
There is no way in hell I would participate in that drill with someone down range like that!
Title: Re: Scary training video
Post by: ericire12 on June 17, 2009, 09:11:00 AM
STOP THE THREAD!
After further viewing, I realized that this is not as bad as it first seems........ The guy was wearing eye and ear protection (http://smileyx.com/smilies/2erOBh1.gif)
Title: Re: Scary training video
Post by: Pathfinder on June 17, 2009, 09:30:54 AM
This showed up on the survival podcast as well. It is a stupid stunt for the photographer, and most of us would walk away from the line.
Some of the folks involved in military operations did note that firing in real-life situations can only be trained for by using real people downrange, with shooters who are highly skilled and trained as well. Seems reasonable, although I have only played an operator in my mind.
That does not excuse Tactical Response for doing this in what appears to be a fairly normal "shoot the ordinary target downrange" situation to get "cool" pictures. The owner of Tactical Response who also frequents and is a sponsor of the survival podcast has not come forward with an explanation as of this morning.
Title: Re: Scary training video
Post by: Erusen on June 17, 2009, 09:51:19 AM
Setting up a remote camera to get the same shot would have taken only a second or two of logical thought.
Title: Re: Scary training video
Post by: Hazcat on June 17, 2009, 09:54:22 AM
This showed up on the survival podcast as well. It is a stupid stunt for the photographer, and most of us would walk away from the line.
Some of the folks involved in military operations did note that firing in real-life situations can only be trained for by using real people downrange, with shooters who are highly skilled and trained as well. Seems reasonable, although I have only played an operator in my mind.
That does not excuse Tactical Response for doing this in what appears to be a fairly normal "shoot the ordinary target downrange" situation to get "cool" pictures. The owner of Tactical Response who also frequents and is a sponsor of the survival podcast has not come forward with an explanation as of this morning.
Damn skippy!
Title: Re: Scary training video
Post by: tt11758 on June 17, 2009, 12:19:00 PM
This showed up on the survival podcast as well. It is a stupid stunt for the photographer, and most of us would walk away from the line.
Some of the folks involved in military operations did note that firing in real-life situations can only be trained for by using real people downrange, with shooters who are highly skilled and trained as well. Seems reasonable, although I have only played an operator in my mind.
That does not excuse Tactical Response for doing this in what appears to be a fairly normal "shoot the ordinary target downrange" situation to get "cool" pictures. The owner of Tactical Response who also frequents and is a sponsor of the survival podcast has not come forward with an explanation as of this morning.
Walk, hell!! You'd hear me saying, "Lord please get me as far away from here as I can possibly get, as fast as I can possibly get there, before this thing REALLY goes south!!"
Title: Re: Scary training video
Post by: tombogan03884 on June 17, 2009, 01:53:34 PM
The guy on the left hand target also had his finger on the trigger while he was aimlessly wandering around. These people are fools.
Title: Re: Scary training video
Post by: CJS3 on June 17, 2009, 03:59:49 PM
Hey, they missed! ::)
Title: Re: Scary training video
Post by: Ping on June 17, 2009, 04:08:03 PM
The photographer has faith in the ability of the shooters!!!! Unsafe, period but he had to get the "shot". No pun intended. ;D
Title: Re: Scary training video
Post by: twyacht on June 17, 2009, 05:31:49 PM
I don't care how close the target was. He was/is an imbessil (also from Bugs Bunny). Personally, I would NOT have participated if I was the closest to this guy.
A digi camera on a tripod, connected to a laptop, BEHIND THE LINE!
Range Officer dropped the ball.
I'll bet Rob P. or USSA wouldn;t go for that crap...
Title: Re: Scary training video
Post by: shooter32 on June 17, 2009, 05:36:30 PM
Crazy, a Damn Fool.
Title: Re: Scary training video
Post by: Teresa Heilevang on June 17, 2009, 05:40:24 PM
I can tell you right now that we ALWAYS stay away from the shooters while filming. Marshal.. Michael ,Eric Lund or any professional would have you ordered off the range FOREVER if that even began to happen. I don't care if you were the shooter..the photographer or the instructor.. You would be gone as gone could get if you did this or permitted it to happen.
What a bunch of frickin stupid idiots!
Title: Re: Scary training video
Post by: tt11758 on June 17, 2009, 05:43:28 PM
I can tell you right now that we ALWAYS stay away from the shooters while filming. Marshal.. Michael ,Eric Lund or any professional would have you ordered off the range FOREVER if that even began to happen. I don't care if you were the shooter..the photographer or the instructor.. You would be gone as gone could get if you did this or permitted tit to happen.
What a bunch of frickin stupid idiots!
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.................................naw it's too easy. ;D
Title: Re: Scary training video
Post by: cooptire on June 17, 2009, 06:01:49 PM
Title: Re: Scary training video
Post by: The Butler did it on June 17, 2009, 06:58:40 PM
My first post , I will bite on tit
Title: Re: Scary training video
Post by: Kid Shelleen on June 17, 2009, 07:11:50 PM
What a Mucking Foron.
Ok I'm off to the corner.
Title: Re: Scary training video
Post by: Michael Bane on June 17, 2009, 07:16:32 PM
This is really long, but I think it's apropos here...an article I wrote for HANDGUNS Magazine 'way back when...
Quote
I got shot at once, and I don’t think it made me a better person.
In truth, I don’t remember all that much about it, except for the exact sound the bullet made as it whizzed on past me to dice up a bunch of Caribbean greenery. It was a combination of sizzle and low frequency hum, like an angry hornet on PCP. The thunderclap sound came later. Years later! Decades later!
I also remember a rush of something between heat and fear; then I was lying in a ditch while a bunch of Army Rangers chuckled mightily at my distress and assured me that nobody in the Cuban army could shoot worth a crap anyway.
I bring this up not to launch into an orgy of war stories, but because I’m concerned about what appears to be a trend in high-end LEO and even civilian training these days—sending students downrange and lobbing a couple of shots at them to “show ‘em what it’s like to be shot at.”
Really…
The basic rationale is that unless you’re a Crip, Blood or in the music business, you’re unlikely to have been shot at on a regular basis, or even at all. Knowing what it feels like to be on the receiving end of a bullet, the reasoning goes, will give you an advantage should the proverbial salad greens hit the food processor. Proponents of this theory, a couple of whom are people I enormously respect (well, most of the time), suggest it’s no different that full contact sparring in the dojo, where learning how to take a hit is a critical part of the training.
Setting aside the fact that in my many years in a dojo I was never once punched by a fist exceeding 1000 feet per second—although there was this one cute woman from Korea who might have come pretty close—let me toss out a couple of observations.
The first is the very prosaic notion that all machines break. You could be the best shot in the world; I could trust you more than my mommy, my gunsmith or the Dalai Lama; you could bolt the gun into a Ransom Rest set in concrete, and…all machines still break! If I’ve learned anything from the hundreds of thousands of rounds I’ve sent downrange over the years, it’s that no matter how absolutely positively perfect a gun is, no matter how many bucks I laid out or which celebrity gun mechanic put the thing together, Murphy always wins. Sights shift in dovetails, barrels wear, and even if the machine works, stuff happens. And I prefer not to be standing downrange when it does. I mean, one lousy earthquake and there’s a new hole in your head. Wouldn’t that just suck?
Then there’s the more pressing question of training—what it is, what it is not, and what its limitations really are. I think we have a tendency to ratchet up training exercises because we confuse the training with the real thing. Training is like getting a merit badge for learning survival techniques. It might be a good prerequisite for heading out into the backcountry, but it doesn’t tell you a darn thing about how you’re going to perform under life-threatening stress.
As Lawrence Gonzales, a fellow traveler down some strange paths, notes in the intro to his book, Deep Survival: Who Lives; Who Dies & Why, “It's easy to imagine that wilderness survival would involve equipment, training, and experience. It turns out that at the moment of truth, those might be good things to have but they won't be decisive.”
Think about that for a minute. Standing downrange and letting people you know and trust shoot at you prepares you for…standing downrange and letting people you know and trust shoot at you! If you’re ever set upon by lethally minded friends, well, there you are! Otherwise, you’re likely to be in the crapper with everyone else, because the training is not, was not, will not and cannot be the real thing.
If you’d really like to add some reality to your training in a way that might actually save your butt some day, investigate force-on-force training with either firearms modified for Simunitions or AirSoft guns that shoot plastic pellets. Hey, people will be shooting at you for real, and while you might not have to die as a consequence of your bad tactical actions, you are going to get punished! And you are going to learn, as best as possible, how to function in a tactical environment.
Which is, of course, the next best thing to having a Spectre gunship show up and turn a huge chunk of the rainforest, including one hapless Cuban sniper, into coleslaw while we guys in the ditch applauded heartily. And for the record, I consider it sheer luck that my pants were still dry!
Michael B
Title: Re: Scary training video
Post by: Frisco on June 17, 2009, 08:32:11 PM
I have a ferly simple rule:
If someone, ANYONE, shoots at ME...I shoot THEM.
If my MOMMA took to tossin' bullets at me...I'd be hard pressed not to double tap her.
That may be a ridiculous scenario, but none of you KNOW my Momma!
I have been shot at. Not pleasant. In each case, I returned fire. Let's just say, it is hard wired into my survival process.
To think that is is effective training, is like saying porn videos are realistic training for pickin' up chicks. BOOM CHICKA WA WA.
Stupid, stupid, stupd.
Then again....was it just me, or did I not see slides reciprocating, or impacts in the dirt behind the targets??????
Title: Re: Scary training video
Post by: Hazcat on June 17, 2009, 08:46:45 PM
Frisco, Better get some new glasses ;). There are definitely rounds impacting dirt.
My glasses are fine. I watched it on my laptop with the wireless connection first, which sucks. I re-watched it on my desktop and saw it clearly.
Damned fools.
Title: Re: Scary training video
Post by: Hazcat on June 18, 2009, 06:53:03 AM
Ya know what is a wonder to me, Frisco is where they found this many untrained shooters and ROs to pull this off. After all any shooter trained in even just the barest 4 basic rules would know not to do this.
Well at least they will all have an excuse if they ever go to court for anything. They are all certainly Non Compass Mentus! (sp)
Title: Re: Scary training video
Post by: Ichiban on June 18, 2009, 07:46:41 AM
It's been well documented that when someone in "authority" tells people to do something they know isn't right they will go ahead and do it anyway. I suspect that the RO told the shooters that it was okay this once and just be really super careful. After all, someone that "knows" told them it was okay.
Sheeple with guns. Not a pleasant thought.
Title: Re: Scary training video
Post by: Pathfinder on June 18, 2009, 07:49:28 AM
Ya know what is a wonder to me, Frisco is where they found this many untrained shooters and ROs to pull this off. After all any shooter trained in even just the barest 4 basic rules would know not to do this.
Well at least they will all have an excuse if they ever go to court for anything. They are all certainly Non Compass Mentus! (sp)
Technically, Haz, I don't see where they violated any of the rules. IPSC et al. gets smart and does the same thing only with non-shoot cardboard targets.
Here's a link to the survival podcast forum where a couple of folks, including former Blackwater types, make their cases. http://thesurvivalpodcast.com/forum/index.php?topic=6300.0;topicseen (http://thesurvivalpodcast.com/forum/index.php?topic=6300.0;topicseen)
Note: Tactical Response is one of their sponsors, ModernSurvival is the owner of the site (sponsored by Tact Resp), Blackdog62 is either a former "operator" or has done a huge amount of reading and talking to operators - I give him the benefit of the doubt and consider him to have walked the walk. The rest of us appear to have been trained ala the comments here.
Bottom line: Tactical Response has not addressed this video yet so far as I know - shame, it would be nice to know the particulars, since this video has gone viral.
Title: Re: Scary training video
Post by: Hazcat on June 18, 2009, 08:03:17 AM
Path,
One of the basic rules is to make sure that no one is down range.
As far as comparing it to a 'show' like Mundan, well that's pretty weak. How many years has the photog practiced with those people and vis versa?
I fail to see any reason to have a photog in that position. Remotes will do it just fine.
Title: Re: Scary training video
Post by: MikeBjerum on June 18, 2009, 08:09:00 AM
One of the basic rules is to make sure that no one is down range.
As far as comparing it to a 'show' like Mundan, well that's pretty weak. How many years has the photog practiced with those people and vis versa?
I fail to see any reason to have a photog in that position. Remotes will do it just fine.
You need to remember that the only danger isn't coming out of the muzzle. There is the possibility of frags off anything hard downrange. This weekend was my first experience with media at the range. I was amazed at the amount of time spent during the round repositioning these people. Every possibility was considered, and they were always on the move further and further back.
There was no reason for this guy to be there in this situation ... PERIOD!
Title: Re: Scary training video
Post by: tt11758 on June 18, 2009, 08:28:53 AM
I couldn't help but notice a cameraman standing beside one of two targets that Jerry Miculek was shooting during last night's broadcast of "Impossible Shots" on Outdoor Television. At first I thought my imagination was playing tricks no me, after viewing this thread earlier in the evening, but after rewinding the DVR I realized that this idiot really WAS standing there when Jerry fired!!
Title: Re: Scary training video
Post by: Hazcat on June 18, 2009, 09:02:23 AM
I couldn't help but notice a cameraman standing beside one of two targets that Jerry Miculek was shooting during last night's broadcast of "Impossible Shots" on Outdoor Television. At first I thought my imagination was playing tricks no me, after viewing this thread earlier in the evening, but after rewinding the DVR I realized that this idiot really WAS standing there when Jerry fired!!
On that program in general they do a lot of 'down the barrel' shots. I always find it disturbing.
Title: Re: Scary training video
Post by: USSA-1 on June 18, 2009, 09:09:43 AM
I guess it's time to jump in.
IMHO, the photographer was trying to ramp up his "Been there, done that" credibility.
After reading some of the posted comments, I can certainly appreciate the perspective of some that the world is a 360 degree fight and that circumstances may develop that cause either you or innocent bystanders to be in the line of fire. The real question is how do we take the skills needed in a 360 degree fight and bring them to the 180 degree square range. Standing downrange while someone shoots live ammunition by or near you is one method, but it is also reserved for the highest skill level practioners. Short of actually being shot while wearing body armor, there is no higher level of training. The fact that it is reserved for only the highest levels of training shows the level of respect that most instructors/trainer have for the drill.
In the video, the photographer wasn't conducting training, he was trying to get a cool picture, nothing else. To put those two students, who, in my opinion, were clearly not comfortable and based on the video, were not highly skilled practioners, in that position is highly irresponsible. It was done, quite stupidly, as a way to enhance the instructors ego and "tactical" credentials.
All instructors have two primary responsibilities. One, to provide the most realistic training possible and two, to provide that training in the safest possible manner. As the realism of training increases, the danger associated with it also increases. Realistic firearms training is dangerous. As instructors, we should constantly ask ourselves, Is there a safer way to accomplish the type of training we want to provide. In this case, there are many ways to accomplish what the photographer wanted. Remote camera's, dummy rounds, a more controlled environment, etc.
This was nothing more than a stunt. Stunts are cool to watch, when the work. When they go wrong, people get seriously hurt or killed.
Things worked out this time, but eventually the odds will catch up with you.
USSA-1
Title: Re: Scary training video
Post by: Hazcat on June 18, 2009, 09:20:02 AM
Nice to hear an expert, USSA-1 (especially when they agree with me ;D )
Title: Re: Scary training video
Post by: Pathfinder on June 18, 2009, 09:21:45 AM
You need to remember that the only danger isn't coming out of the muzzle. There is the possibility of frags off anything hard downrange. This weekend was my first experience with media at the range. I was amazed at the amount of time spent during the round repositioning these people. Every possibility was considered, and they were always on the move further and further back.
There was no reason for this guy to be there in this situation ... PERIOD!
Believe me, I understand all of that, I've had ricochets whiz past me. However, the 4 rules I am aware of are best stated on Fred's Appleseed site, are:
ONE: ALL firearms are to be unloaded at all times except when on the firing line, after the shooter has prepped and been given the "LOAD" command. "Unloaded" means bolt locked back, safety on, mag out, and grounded on shooting mat or rifle rack.
TWO: MUZZLES are to be pointed in a SAFE DIRECTION at ALL TIMES. (The GOLDEN RULE of gun safety.)
THREE: You never touch the trigger until your sights are on the target, and you are ready to fire the shot.
FOUR: You make sure everyone around you complies with these rules.
I do see the argument that the photographer downrange is a violation of Rule #2 - maybe. Personally, I think was a stupid thing to do with a video camera around, and "just" for cool pictures. But it does not violate the letter of the rules per se - if you're not pointing at the photog, then it is "safe". ::)
FWIW - I am not justifying the behavior at all, I have said here, and in my previous posts, that this is a dumb, stupid move.
Title: Re: Scary training video
Post by: Hazcat on June 18, 2009, 09:26:41 AM
Believe me, I understand all of that, I've had ricochets whiz past me. However, the 4 rules I am aware of are best stated on Fred's Appleseed site, are:
ONE: ALL firearms are to be unloaded at all times except when on the firing line, after the shooter has prepped and been given the "LOAD" command. "Unloaded" means bolt locked back, safety on, mag out, and grounded on shooting mat or rifle rack.
TWO: MUZZLES are to be pointed in a SAFE DIRECTION at ALL TIMES. (The GOLDEN RULE of gun safety.)
THREE: You never touch the trigger until your sights are on the target, and you are ready to fire the shot.
FOUR: You make sure everyone around you complies with these rules.
I do see the argument that the photographer downrange is a violation of Rule #2 - maybe. Personally, I think was a stupid thing to do with a video camera around, and "just" for cool pictures. But it does not violate the letter of the rules per se - if you're not pointing at the photog, then it is "safe". ::)
FWIW - I am not justifying the behavior at all, I have said here, and in my previous posts, that this is a dumb, stupid move.
Path,
I was talking about my RO training, both in the military and as a civilian. "Is there any one down range..."
Title: Re: Scary training video
Post by: ericire12 on June 18, 2009, 10:45:45 AM
Here is the bottom line:
There are two very different issues here with this video, and Bane and USSAA-1 have summed them up the best.
1. For those who think this a necessary way to train in order to "feel what it is like to be shot at" are idiots. They are taking an enormous risk with little to no tangible benefit. As Bane said, there are many places out there that offer force on force training in shoot houses that will give you far more beneficial training and at the same time negate almost 100% of the risk -- or hell, I say just go play some paintball!
2. This is not about training. As USSAA-1 points out, this is just a photographer trying to get "Tacti-cool pictures". He too is an idiot, because he is risking bodily harm or death just to get a photo. Yes, many photographers risk their lives to get other various photos everyday all around the world.... BUT, in this case it is an unnecessary risk. As it has been stated earlier, he could just use a remote, or have the group pose there with empty guns, and he could still get the same shots (minus casings flying through the air). I cant fault him, though. Its his life and his career, and he has to make the decision as to what chances he wants to take in order to get the shot he wants. Blame should be placed on the Range Officer who decided this was an acceptable behavior at his range, and also on the shooters who decided that it was ok to discharge their firearms in the with someone downrange.
Title: Re: Scary training video
Post by: jaybet on June 18, 2009, 11:22:09 AM
What really bothers me about this whole thing is that the shooters even participated! I and most people I know would have walked off the line. What the hell are they thinking? This is stupid piled on stupid.
Title: Re: Scary training video
Post by: MikeBjerum on June 18, 2009, 11:34:36 AM
What really bothers me about this whole thing is that the shooters even participated! I and most people I know would have walked off the line. What the hell are they thinking? This is stupid piled on stupid.
I have watched the video several times as I read responses. These are not new shooters or shooters new to ranges. Look at the way the handle their guns, do their reloads and assess the situation. Grips, stance, finger out of trigger guard, awareness (for everything except the stupid mammal between the targets) ... I would like to hear the info and instructions given prior to this stunt.
Title: Re: Scary training video
Post by: Pathfinder on June 18, 2009, 07:13:16 PM
Tactical Response (James Yaeger) has posted his response to the "hate mail" he has received over the original video. Without comment, here it is.
9 minutes! I aint watching that... someone tell me what he said
you should watch it
couple of things
he thinks safety is an unobtainable myth "True Safety dose not exist " ( BS )
the other bit that pissed me off was his comment that firearms are "designed to kill people " they are a Tool no different to a knife or screwdriver.
he talked about Tactical Responses Training theories and how they work there
still I think it is very irresponsible imo wonder what there public liability insurance company would think about that :-\
also how could this be legal on a registered Range I know for a Fact the Police here ( who certify our range ) would shut us down in less than a hart beat if that was happen @ our range
Title: Re: Scary training video
Post by: Timothy on June 18, 2009, 07:53:05 PM
This guys analogies are rediculous, this was a CYA video designed to put out a fire to a very damaging piece of evidence.
This incident should have never taken place! If someone had gotten hurt or worse, killed because of this event, someone would or should go to jail for a very long time.
His name is burned into my memory and I'll ignore anything I may come across in the future.
Title: Re: Scary training video
Post by: twyacht on June 18, 2009, 08:14:33 PM
His "philosophical" doublespeak has lost all credibility less than a minute in. His own 4th rule was broken. He can "spin it" any way he wants.
Bad Idea, Bad Move, PERIOD! The "true safety cannot exist", oh,.. so I'll just put a photographer in between two targets with people shooting bullets a couple of feet from my head.... is a lame argument.
I'm going to drive 100 mph to work tomorrow because I am not safe driving the speed limit.
People are safer BEHIND THE LINE!!!!!! Unless your in the circus getting knives thrown at you, with a cigarette in your mouth and balloons in your hand, DON'T DO STUPID S*** like be IN FRONT OF THE FIRING LINE...
Geez,......
Title: Re: Scary training video
Post by: Ichiban on June 18, 2009, 08:22:53 PM
I repeat my earlier comment: What a maroon!
Title: Re: Scary training video
Post by: Hazcat on June 18, 2009, 08:34:48 PM
I couldn't get past 3 minutes of the jerk!
First - I will NEVER train with him or ANY organization he is associated with.
His "GASP" tells you all you need to know about this fool.
"Safety is unobtainable" As Phil said 'BS' and it SURE is if you don't try!
"Internet Commandos" I will admit to not knowing his background but I will tell you I would NOT trust him in a fire fight and I (like many here) have been there. He's a blowhard!
The guy would make a good liberal apologist with his doublespeak and word parsing.
Bottom line - If you want to waste money and learn nothing go to his training facility.
Title: Re: Scary training video
Post by: philw on June 18, 2009, 08:54:48 PM
I am interesting is Marshal, Rob and Michael's thoughts on this
especially from a point of doing "TV Cool" video showing training drills
and his philosophical view on doing 360 deg training v the 180 deg angles
I can understand if they need a down range "angle" to use a remote camera or set it up all ready rolling
however the chances of stuffing up is too Ricky and there is no need to do something like that as there is no need
having not done any style of defense training I don't know how it works
however what I do know and have been through from my training on the range and what I will be going through soon to get my RO qualification that still has be shaking my head
Title: Re: Scary training video
Post by: MikeBjerum on June 18, 2009, 09:28:17 PM
I gave up on him when he said that "I only think I will rise to the occasion" when in a real fight without pointing a gun at someone in a controlled situation. Remember that we don't carry because we hope to get in a fight. We carry so we have the right tool if we need it. We train and practice to #1 be so famililure with our weapon that pointing it and firing it is like pointing our finger and saying bang, # 2 we train so we can recognize danger before it is there and avoid pointing at and shooting.
I hope and pray that I never need to point at or shoot anyone. With that in mind I will train to protect myself, but I will not endanger someone just so I think I know that I can shoot with someone in front of me.
By the way, with his mind set does he train and practice edged weapons with real (sharp) knives. Sure wouldn't want to be in that class.
Title: Re: Scary training video
Post by: tombogan03884 on June 18, 2009, 09:28:28 PM
I don't give a crap about his so back ground, he's a fool . True safety is a myth ? Yes, especially when you have some ass picker posing as "trainer" who blows off basic safety rules. I hope he goes out of business before he gets some one killed or seriously injured. It is unfortunate that the cancer of his stupidity has already been spread to people who may not know any better.
Title: Re: Scary training video
Post by: Hazcat on June 18, 2009, 09:34:20 PM
His little 'yes men' are all posting attaboys on his answer.
The guy is an asshat and WILL get some one injured / killed SOON!
Title: Re: Scary training video
Post by: MikeBjerum on June 18, 2009, 09:35:35 PM
His little 'yes men' are all posting attaboys on his answer.
The guy is an asshat and WILL get some one injured / killed SOON!
Thanks for the update. I refuse to go there.
Title: Re: Scary training video
Post by: Marshal Halloway on June 18, 2009, 10:24:07 PM
Welcome to the world of training and training theories. :D
I have experienced two situations with bullets flying my way... I didn't like it. One was an AD, the other was not.
Later and as a producer, videographer or whatever I have to do get gun related content on tape, I don't need to practice stunts where I put myself or a videographer at risk. I also don't want to put a shooter in a situation where they have to be afraid of hurting someone in a non threatening situation.
We simply put remote cameras down range and believe me, a person shooting and knowing he has a 4000 dollar thingy next to the target, that person will for sure focus on the front sight. The risk is still there, but a camera can be replaced.
I have been participating and covering tactical training on 2 continents over the last 20 years and believe me, there are many training theories out there and every school has a slightly different approach to training. Heck, they also have to establish something that differ from their competitors. Because of that and over the years, the quality of training has in fact improved.
On the other hand and this is from my perspective.... No matter the different philosophies and theories out there... and when it comes down to a real life threatening situation... it is all about the knowledge of your equipment, the balance of speed and accuracy and most important, how you deal with panic control.
There is no doubt that a 360 degree training environment has its advantages especially for highly skilled and experienced LEO and military personnel. However, I am not so sure that it is a wise thing to offer this to the general "tactically inclined" civilian gun owner. It takes only one fatal mistake to give all civilian training schools a bad reputation.
No matter how good the training is when it comes to surviving a gunfight, it still has to be done in a controlled environment. I have had talks with veterans and LEOs who have been in gunfights and the general answer is this: No matter how well trained you are, you will never be able to prepare yourself 100% for the horror and where to find your own borderline between control and panic. The only thing that can make a difference is your own skills in acting fast and shooting accurate. It takes practice, practice and practice. Will shooting at a paper target with a person standing beside it, make you a better gunfighter? Nope.... It just makes you extra slow and careful.
Folks... my theory about this "scary training video" is pretty simple. Maybe the students were highly skilled shooters in a setting where the photographer didn't have a tripod and said... what the heck. They all agreed, someone filmed the whole dang thing and unfortunately it went public. I find it hard to believe that James Yaeger gave his approval to upload this video.
On top of that, we now experience a public damage control that is probably not the best I have witnessed.
Internet can be a damaging tool.......
Title: Re: Scary training video
Post by: Kid Shelleen on June 18, 2009, 10:30:28 PM
I just watched all 9 minutes of the "Explanation Video" and I have to say that my first impression when I called the guy a Mucking Foron was way off the mark.
He is a much, much bigger Mucking Foron than I first thought. This idiot is the lamestream medias wet dream. Let's hope that no one ever has him speak as a representative for armed Americans.
I will never, ever attend any of his training programs. If he changes the name of his program and I end up there by mistake, then I'll gladly walk away and forfeit any amount of money that I have mistakenly layed out.
He is trying to defend the indefensible. Putting that cameraman down range was unnecessary, unwarranted, uncaring, uncalled for and unbelievable. Calling him the world's biggest Mucking Foron is an understatement.
Title: Re: Scary training video
Post by: philw on June 18, 2009, 10:41:38 PM
thanks for that Marshal
I was thinking the price would be enough for a camera to make sure you hit the target
lol I worry about shooting the Crony the other day at the stat title shoot to check my Ammo was in spec
if they feel they need 360 deg training there is Simunition why not use that?
yes it may cost more however if they NEED that training then pony up the cash for it
Title: Re: Scary training video
Post by: MAUSERMAN on June 18, 2009, 11:37:48 PM
That shit just isnt funny at all, someone could have missed a killed the camera guy. Some asshole just wasnt doing their job. Heck i'll never use Tactical Response for any kind of training after seeing that. >:(
Title: Re: Scary training video
Post by: Pathfinder on June 19, 2009, 06:29:15 AM
I purposefully did not say anything when I posted Yaeger's response or the comments on the survival podcast forum, wanting to see others' reactions, especially the M's and Rob's. My $.02:
Original video, as noted - dumb move by photographer - dumber move by shooters who continued to shoot. That was not a 360 degree training situation - that was a range "shoot the paper target downrange" situation. This appears to have been an unnecessary risk for a "tacticool" photo-op.
Most of us have figured out that there are 360 situations, that's why we are trained to look around after having neutralized an immediate threat. Watch some of the TBD scenarios, or even the older PDTV videos with the robot - very good demos of the 360 environment.
Dumbest move was letting it be videotaped.
Response video - lame. The reason I told Eric to watch the video was so that he could see first hand the lunacy that was being offered as an explanation, the illogic and inconsistency and sheer rambling-ness (?) of the response. Came across as a feeble attempt at damage control, not a good, reasoned explanation.
Survival podcast forum - I did mention he was a major sponsor, didn't I? They have excellent discussions of preparedness and for that I will give them their props. They are off on this topic, though.
Title: Re: Scary training video
Post by: tombogan03884 on June 19, 2009, 12:10:15 PM
This is the SECOND comment I posted to that video, apparently the first one didn't get approved as it was not there when I checked back:
Safety is an unattainable myth ? Maybe, but it becomes more so when fools needlessly ignore basic safety. Yes, some people want or need 360 degree training, that's why reputable trainers incorporate simunition and high end air soft training into their programs, to supply the training with out endangering any one needlessly. Your foolishness plays into the hands of the anti gunners.
Lets see if they have the courage to post a differing view.
Title: Re: Scary training video
Post by: deputy125 on June 19, 2009, 12:34:01 PM
well, i guess i was one of the "thousands" he refers to in emails sent to him at tactical response. his reply email was very short, vulgar, and explicit.........and totally unprofessional. His email response alone would cause me to question his methods, training, and business.
to me, the term "friendly fire" comes to mind considering the first video.
Title: Re: Scary training video
Post by: Hazcat on June 19, 2009, 12:53:06 PM
well, i guess i was one of the "thousands" he refers to in emails sent to him at tactical response. his reply email was very short, vulgar, and explicit.........and totally unprofessional. His email response alone would cause me to question his methods, training, and business.
to me, the term "friendly fire" comes to mind considering the first video.
Funny, that doesn't suprise me at all!
BTW, Welcome to the forum Deputy!
Title: Re: Scary training video
Post by: Michael Bane on June 19, 2009, 01:25:49 PM
I have not watched Yaeger's response, but I don't need to see it to know that I don't agree with his actions. I do heartily agree with Marshal's comments — there are a lot of different training philosophies out there. I don't agree with all of them, but taken as an aggregate they have helped push training to a higher level.
From a purely ethical standpoint, every time I've taken my film crew onto a range, every time I've worked as a rangemaster, a match director, a safety officer or a range officer, every time I've taught a class, I have taken responsibility for the lives of the my crew, my competitors, my spectators, my students. Only a fool takes that responsibility lightly. Safety may indeed be a myth, but Col. Cooper taught me that a rigidly enforced, systematic standard of gun safety works. Look at the various disciplines of practical pistol...I'm proud of what we've accomplished with the National Range Officers Institute and standardized safety. A lot of us have agonized over safety as we've moved from the square range to simulations...we suspend Rule 2 — Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy — for the sake of more realistic training using Sim, AirSoft or dummy guns. Simulation training works, and it works without exposing us or the people we have accepted responsibility for to lethal threats.
From a purely philosophical viewpoint, in addition to my time with police, military and civilian firearms trainers, I worked in very high risk sports for more than a decade. My philosophy of training is based on the truths that I learned in the field, using myself as the ultimate crash test dummy. One absolute thing I learned can be summed up in an unattributed Zen-like quote: The map is not the journey! We train with the knowledge that we cannot understand the challenges we face until we face them ourselves. You can read every book on mountain climbing, memorize THE FREEDOM OF THE HILLS, train in as harsh an environment as you can with as many different famous instructors as you can find, but the awesome reality of a Big Mountain doesn't reveal itself until you stand on its slopes. I've been there, and was humbled.
I believe we are more, however, than automatons destined to follow our programming. We train the basics, we innoculate ourselves to stress, we deal in realistic simulations to buy us time when and if the balloon does go up, the microseconds necessary for us to adapt to reality. Ironically, I believe that confusing the map with the trip opens us to more, rather than less, danger. Overconfidence is a disease that is often fatal...I have seen it kill people smarter and better equipped than me. Mark Twight is one of the finest climbers of this and maybe any generation...he is also a shooter who studied with the great Brian Enos and a person I'm honored to call a friend. In his book EXTREME ALPINISM, Mark wrote: "Nobody controls a situation in the mountains. It is vanity to imagine one can. Instead, grow comfortable with giving up control and acting within chaos and uncertainty. Attempting to dominate constantly changing circumstances in the mountains or to fight the loss of control serves only to increase fear and multiply its effects. Embrace the inherent lack of control and focus on applying skills and ideals to the situation."
Michael B
Title: Re: Scary training video
Post by: Steyr M40A1 on June 19, 2009, 05:44:59 PM
I agree with the consensus. This was a bad idea no matter how you look at it.
This is great fuel for the anti's. They would have a field day with this. Not to mention the potential loss of life, no matter how beneficial to the gene pool it could have been. Defiantly a future Darwin Award winner.
The human gene pool needs some lifeguards and chlorine!
Title: Re: Scary training video
Post by: Conagher 45 on June 19, 2009, 07:38:07 PM
well, i guess i was one of the "thousands" he refers to in emails sent to him at tactical response. his reply email was very short, vulgar, and explicit.........and totally unprofessional. His email response alone would cause me to question his methods, training, and business.
to me, the term "friendly fire" comes to mind considering the first video.
Just remember " Friendly Fire" isn't !
Title: Re: Scary training video
Post by: Texas_Bryan on June 19, 2009, 07:51:26 PM
Some people ain't got no sense. I got four year old brother that could have told you that isn't safe, I'd walk my ass outta there. Shoot the videos you need, then come back with one or two guys, the proper gear, and get that sumbitch in edit. Better than having a cutter work on you for six hours while the guy who accidently shot you, if it could be called an accident, is in for a lifetime of regrets and nightmares. As Hank would say, 'I'm outta this jack ass festival!'
Title: Re: Scary training video
Post by: MAUSERMAN on June 19, 2009, 11:08:56 PM
Is it just me but as a shooter on the line i would notice a guy with a camera. HELL where was the range officer, wait i got it he had his head up his arse.