The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Tactical Rifle & Carbine => Topic started by: HBMan on February 27, 2007, 01:32:40 AM
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Been thinking of a new rifle and with the recent light shed on the Black rifles and reading Michael's Peace with Honor (http://www.downrange.tv/artman2/publish/droppedshot/83.shtml) got to wondering what the consensus is on these.
I realize the broad range of the following questions but I would like to see discussion on WHY buy a BLACK RIFLE?
Not really a poll but just want to see which rifles are popular and why. If you were going to help someone pick out a New rifle which one would YOU suggest?
Since there is a vast amount of options for these guns on the market right now what would be a good platform to start with in terms of accuracy out of the box, ability to be upgraded, moderate cost (I.E. best bang for the buck), good sights and things like removable handle or flat top?
What package is best for hunting or varmits?
Which brands carry the most resale value?
How are the Colt and bigger brand name rifles compared to the other brands?
How many of you own and shoot the AR-15 type rifles?
Thanks for your input.
HBMan
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Good question HBMan. I've been wondering the same thing. I have been thinking about getting a black rifle for quite a while myself. I think I kind of know what I want but there are so many companies to choose from that it gets a little overwhelming. I know everybody has their favorites (kinda like asking someone who makes the best truck) but I'd still like to hear.
What are the feelings on the 6.8mm round?
I'm leaning more towards a pretty stripped down rifle to start. Probably a carbine.
What are the thoughts on the EOTech sights?
Thanks for helping a newbie out.
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I have had many of the same questions, and have come across a few answers - for myself. It does all hinge on personal taste, ability to pay, and objectives.
Part of the problem is that the AR platform is so variable that the possible combinations of receiver, barrel, stock, etc. are huge. Until recently, I was unaware that you could have a .223 AR, and swap the receiver/barrel for a 6.8, keeping the lower and stock.
Also, many of the ARs apparently need work out of the box. The most common upgrade appears to be the trigger group. Michael, among others, has talked about "throwing away" the stock trigger group and getting an NM upgrade. Then there's the forearm, and stock, and . . . you get the picture.
Then you get to decide what kind of twist you want in the barrel, 1:6 through 1:12.
Do you want a stock AR-15A2 (as opposed to the A1), or an M-4 carbine?
I recently decided, after seeing Michael's fun with the Sig 556 at the SHOT Show to go with that rifle, and be done with it. The Sig costs more than a "standard" AR, MSRP is $1300, but it doesn't require anything additional, like the trigger group (ca. $120), railed forearm ($???), collapsible stock ($???), etc. etc. etc.
You can certainly start with another brand, like DPMS or Bushmaster, for less and then upgrade as you can afford it.
As for caliber, the deciding factor is cost and availability. .223 ammo is plentiful, getting more expensive by the week, though. 6.8 ammo is still pretty limited unless you reload and even then brass is probably more than for the .223.
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Good morning. I'd like to weigh in with info on this subject. I've been a soldier off and on (currently on) since 1986, going through the M16A1, M16A2 and currently the M4 military versions of this rifle. I also own several civilian ARs in both carbine and rifle configurations.
As to the first question, why?, my response is twofold: First, I own these rifles because I can. A right, like a muscle, must be exercised to be of any utility. It is important to me to be able to own weapons, not guns. Second, I just love to shoot. I use my ARs in competitions and just for fun. My wife and kids can shoot them all day and have a great time. They are accurate and easy to operate.
As to which AR, there is no single answer. First, determine what you want to do with the rifle. If you plan to shoot at 50-150 yards, I'd suggest a 16" carbine. If you plan to shoot across the course matches, I'd opt for a 20" rifle. My preference is for either a shorty stock, or an A1 length stock, as I find the A2 to be too long, even for my long arms.
Any of the major brand names create a fine weapon that will last as long as you want. For my money, even though my issue weapon is a Colt, I would not purchase a private AR from Colt. They are overpriced, and offer no perceptible benefit. A Bushmaster, Rock River or any other major maker will give you more rifle for the money. Also, there is no need to swap triggers. While a NM trigger may be smoother, with proper practice, the stock trigger is more than adequate. I have been qualifying expert with stock triggers for 20 years in the Army, and shoot just fine with my personal rifles, too. If you plan on Camp Perry, then a new trigger might make sense, but certainly not for casual shooting, or even three gun matches.
For sights, it is hard to beat the factory iron sights, and that is where any rifleman should start. Once you are proficient with those, not before, a red dot is awfully nice. I use an Aimpoint Comp on my service rifle, but an Eotech on my personal rifles. Either is a great choice. An ACOG is also fantastic, but I haven't been able to justify the cost.
As for what I actually own, in order of their use, I have the following:
S&W M&P
Bushmaster carbine
Bushmaster 20"
Rock River carbine.
Good luck.
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If you know what you want, and aren't afraid to shop the net, you can build your own AR EXACTLY the way you want it and save substantial $$$ over buying a complete rifle and then modding it. For one thing, you only pay fed excise tax on the cost of the lower receiver instead of on the whole rifle.
The top brands are Armalite, Bushmaster, Colt, DPMS, Rock River, Sabre Defense, and S&W. Personally, I'd put Bushmaster and DPMS about a half-cut lower than the others on that list but they all make good usable stuff and will stand behind it. My own preference is for Rock River as the best combination of excellent quality at reasonable price.
For a "starter" AR, for all-around use, I suggest a 20" govt-profile barrel in 1:9 with a flattop receiver. You don't need floated handguards to get good AR accuracy; most rifles will easily shoot into 2MOA or better and many of them will do close to 1MOA right out of the box. Chrome bore is good but not a deal-breaker if you can't get it. DO make sure you're getting a 5.56mm chamber as opposed to a .223 chamber. Most ARs come with 5.56 chambers standard but it's not a bad idea to make sure.
The flattop receiver will give you the greatest versatility in mounting sights of various kinds. And DO make sure you have some kind of iron sights. Even the cheap ($40-50) Chinese clone carry handle/sights will do a good job if you sight the thing in and then leave it alone. (I have two of these and they're not world-class equipment by any means but they DO work and will do for most civilian uses.)
The M4-type telestock looks cool but is not as comfortable to shoot. It is useful however if children or small women will be shooting your rifle, as it adjusts to different lengths. I prefer the standard fixed A1 stock.
If you're looking at a short (16") carbine, do yourself a HUGE favor and check out the so-called midlength gas systems instead of the standard M4 carbine length gas system/handguards. The midlength is just a better mousetrap all the way around.
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Good replies! There are so many differnt options that it boggles the mid. I presently have 3 ARs, and their variety illustrates what's available out there:
• J&T/Doublestar M-4 (the yellow gun)
• JP Enterprises competition rifle
• S&W M&P
The M-4 is a carry-handle iron-sight gun built before the AWB sunsetted; the other two are flattops. The S&W has an Aimpoint M3 on it; the JP a Leupold Mark 4 1-3X CQ/T. I have an order in for a SIGARMS 556 (they're 'way backed up). The JP is a racehorse and shoots as well as anything I've ever shot; the S&W sort of a Swiss Army Knife kinda gun (I've been through GUNSITE with it).
I've found with my eyes — ie, OLD; and the documented-on-the-blog bout with shingles damaged my dominant right eye — the 1X Aimpoint is a 100-yard max sight. If I'm actually going to be shooting longer distances, I prefer the Leupold or one of the 4X Trijicons, which I don't presently have, although I do have one on order.
I'm probably going to revisit the M-4 or mid-length "house gun" concept in the near future, maybe with a short carbine from Sabre, Stag or DPMS, ideally fitted with one of the excellent SureFire suppressors once I wade through the paperwork. I'm getting my feet wet, so to speak, with the paperwork on a Tactical Solutions ultralight rimfire suppressor, so I'll let you know hot that goes. I've done a lot of work with the SureFire suppressors on ARs and I really like them.
Michael B
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House carbines? Oh yeah, baby....
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Hey Snake;
I knew I cold depend on yu to have an M1 Carbine, the most under-rated little gun in the world!
mb
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After my wife's next purchase (looking for a S&W model 65LS) I'm thinking M1 Carbine for Mr. Worsham!
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I have been primarily looking at Bushmaster and lately Rock River Arms. Snake45 and Sash, I forgot to add I was looking at the 20" barrels as well. I had thought about the A1 stock but since I will be having my son shoot it as well (maybe even my wife since she thinks she can outshoot me) I probably will opt for the M4 telestock. I will have to look into the Smith M&P, though.
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Hey Snake;
I knew I cold depend on yu to have an M1 Carbine, the most under-rated little gun in the world!
mb
I own an old (bought new in '74) Universal M1 carbine and I love it. If I do my part it will shoot cloverleafs at 50 yards.
CMP will be selling M1s in the very near future and I plan on getting one as a "big brother" for my Universal.
Does anyone know which manufacture I should get? They list several. Here is a link, the list is down the page a bit. http://www.odcmp.com/rifles/carbine.htm
Thanks!
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Colt to invest. Non Colt to shoot. The differences are more than "large pin" Colt, and "small pin" for non Colt. I hear that the bolt carrier in a Colt is different too...
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Which AR to buy? If you end up with 20 responses, you'll probably end up with 20 different choices. LOTS to choose from. I am still fairly new to ARs, but I learned a few things early...
1 New Colts are dramatically overpriced, and not better guns. Don't bother. (Ignoring the old collectables; I'm assuming that's not your primary motivation at this point.)
2 If you want immediate gratification, get one built up. If you can use a buddy's gun a few times to figure out what you like and don't like, you will be better off in the long run ($) to build one up yourself. Plus, it's a fun project. I got a stripped RRA lower for $120, and then ordered a lower parts kit from RRA to build it up. Got a Vltor stock off eBay, and that was that. So, now I have a complete lower set up and waiting for its upper, which brings me to #3.
3 Caliber - 5.56/.223 is the 'traditional' caliber, and is more plentiful/cheaper than other calibers, although the prices do seem to be rising daily as more stuff goes overseas for use in conflicts... There's 6.8SPC, 6.5 Grendel, and a host of others. I encourage you to Google this, but I think you get the point here...
4 Gas vs Piston? - If you've researched it this far, no doubt you already know that cleaning a really dirty direct-impengement gun is a rather large pain in the ass. DI guns are certainly more plentiful, though, and cheaper. That said, it wasn't long ago that a piston-AR was not much more than a neat idea, and now you've got HK, POF, LWRC (my choice) and Bushmaster making piston uppers, and those are just the ones I'm aware of. I've heard that Barrett is working on one, too. Well, where there's smoke, there's fire. If you're not up to speed on what a piston gun represents, LWRC (lwrifles.com) has a good schematic that outlines the basic processes, and the differences.
Then the more general question: Why an AR vs any other rifle? Again, lots of answers, but for me it's this: If I'm only going to be able to grab one rifle and a bug-out bag on the way out the door if something really bad hits, I need that gun to be as reliable and versatile as possible. With an adjustable stock, too many rails to count, and a plethera of toys to mount on them, it's hard for me to think there's a better bet out there. Plus, they are so ubiquitous now, you can get parts damn near anywhere.
How's that for a long-winded response? ;)
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MB:
I too am a believer in the M1 Carbine. I carried an M2 in combat. It only jammed once when I was hiding in a hay stack and hay got in the action. Applied immediate action and was back in the fight. If you are watching War on PBS you will be surprised at the number of M1 Carbines GIs are carrying.
Back to HBMan:
I was/am not a real fan of black rifles based on Vietnam bad experience. BUT in keeping with the current trends I went to Camp Perry to buy an other M1 Carbine and to check out all the black rifles that were on Commercial Row -- there were a lot but no SIG, no Stag, and no S&W. I wound up with a Rock River 16" A4 mid length with a stainless steel 1 in 8" 5.56/.233. It is a fun gun. I have iron sights which are not good for my old eyes and have just put a Bushnell Holosight on it that I got from Midway. That tightend the groups right down to near MOA at 100 yards. Since I shoot left handed I had an ambidextrous safety added and am happy to say this rifle does not throw the empties down my shirt!
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Speaking of the M1 Carbine...what's the word on new ones from Auto Ordnance? Other than the cost.
http://www.auto-ordnance.com/ao_aom110.html
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Speaking of the M1 Carbine...what's the word on new ones from Auto Ordnance? Other than the cost.
http://www.auto-ordnance.com/ao_aom110.html
Why spend that much for a knock off when you can get an original for less?
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Why spend that much for a knock off when you can get an original for less?
True, but not everyone can purchase from Camp Perry. The used ones at the local gun show are in the 500's.
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Can't believe that no one has suggested the Dissipator style. I have two, one is an A2, and I just got an A3 upper. IMHO they are probably the best AR setup. You get a carbine length (16") barrel, which lends it self to quick action and the full length rifle sight radius, which gives you just a smidge more accuracy, also the full length handguards will keep you from burning yourself on the barrel, especially if you sling it over your shoulder after putting a few hundred rounds through it. Both of mine have the carbine length gas system so it will handle most any ammo. I have seen a few dissys with a 20" gas system, but from what I've read they are a bit tempermental with some loads. Don't get me wrong, I love my M4, but for out and out comfort, reliability, and accuracy I'll choose the dissipator any day.
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I got my first one, a Rock River, this spring. I bought one of the basic flattops.
I talked to several people in our local club and decided not to build one for my first Black Rifle.
We have several people who have built them and you could probably do it a little cheaper but many times it ends up costing more. There seems to be a tendency to "upgrade" parts. For example, a standard trigger co X but for $5 more I can get a better trigger. Well it seems the $5 here and $10 there adds up and the total cost is more than buying the gun outright. But, it is probably a better gun and you get to say "I built this gun" . I'm reallt thinking of doing that for my neat one.
Beware of BRD (black rifle disease) ;D
There are so many accessories it's hard to resist adding gadget to it.
Good luck,
Paul
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I want to get my first black rifle, but I don't want to sell the farm in order to get it. Also jamming will put me off on a style of gun faster than grease through a goose. Right now I'm torn between a S&W M&P , and a Sig 556. But I could be swayed to 308 as that is a caliber I love. I need help.....
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I want to get my first black rifle, but I don't want to sell the farm in order to get it. Also jamming will put me off on a style of gun faster than grease through a goose. Right now I'm torn between a S&W M&P , and a Sig 556. But I could be swayed to 308 as that is a caliber I love. I need help.....
Both of these are pricey versions of the hi-tech rifles - I have the Sig 556. If you're looking to get started with an AR, go more basic. I picked up a DPMS M4 clone for $700 and it is lovely. It was also little more than half the cost of the Sig. 308 versions are a little more but still less than the Sig or S&W - which is actually a Stag Arms under the skin, or so I'm told.
So keep the farm, maybe sell a cow. If the cow's a good one, you can get enough to get the AR, magazines and ammo and still have range fees left over and take the sweetie to dinner.
I got a stripped lower for Christmas, and yup - I am building my own, this time a 6.8. Scary for a guy who is just now figuring out what a selector detent is. Thanks to AR15.com I am learning.
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Thanks for the input. I will take a few moments, calm down, put the checkbook away and think about it..
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Pathfinder is right, I bought a Bushmaster at a gun show for 700.00 almost new. so there are some deals to be had. I suggest getting a rifle chamberd for 5.56 not .223 and a 1 in 9 twist. I would also suggest getting one soon, no telling what is gonna happen with politics (if you know what I mean) You can build a good one easy pretty cheap, even buy a complete lower and an upper cheaper than a complete rifle.
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I've put nearly 1000 rounds through my S&W M&P15 with zero malfunctions and absolutely love it! Especially compared to more expensive rifles. Right now it is equiped with a TruGlo reddot sight and a surefire G2 flashlight in a CAA flashlight holder on the CAA quadrail which was an easy and inexpensive upgrade.
Of course I am looking at upgrading to an EoTech 511 Holographic sight.
This question for any of you who have experience with the EoTech. Will it be effective with the fixed frontsight post still in place or is it neccessary to remove it?
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I am new to this forum. I have been looking for a new AR rifle. Since I am left handed I have been looking at Stag Arms. Any suggestions out there. This will be my first AR.
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I have two dpms rifles and think that there great can get you a deal as I am a dealer, if you are interested Let me know
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I am looking for a 308 DPMS. I want something that will shoot as well as I can, but not to dressed up. I have the use of a 300 yard range, so I will be trying to reach out. Would you be interested in helping me out?
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inchhigh,
In which state are you a dealer?
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I know its almost a year later to be asking this question. But here goes. I've heard this a couple of times on this subject on AR-15s'. Why would I want to go with a 5.56 mm as opposed to a .223. I can't seem to find any 5.56 mm for sale. But I can find alot .223 from ammo companys and If I want to reload there is alot out there in .223 none in 5.56 mm that I can find. Is 5.56 a NATO round? Why buy an AR in a caliber thats hard to find or too expensive to shoot. I know there must be a good reason but no one has touched on why 5.56 mm is better or worse than the .223. Or if this subject has been talked about on this forum maybe I just missed it.
If you know what you want, and aren't afraid to shop the net, you can build your own AR EXACTLY the way you want it and save substantial $$$ over buying a complete rifle and then modding it. For one thing, you only pay fed excise tax on the cost of the lower receiver instead of on the whole rifle.
The top brands are Armalite, Bushmaster, Colt, DPMS, Rock River, Sabre Defense, and S&W. Personally, I'd put Bushmaster and DPMS about a half-cut lower than the others on that list but they all make good usable stuff and will stand behind it. My own preference is for Rock River as the best combination of excellent quality at reasonable price.
For a "starter" AR, for all-around use, I suggest a 20" govt-profile barrel in 1:9 with a flattop receiver. You don't need floated handguards to get good AR accuracy; most rifles will easily shoot into 2MOA or better and many of them will do close to 1MOA right out of the box. Chrome bore is good but not a deal-breaker if you can't get it. DO make sure you're getting a 5.56mm chamber as opposed to a .223 chamber. Most ARs come with 5.56 chambers standard but it's not a bad idea to make sure.
The flattop receiver will give you the greatest versatility in mounting sights of various kinds. And DO make sure you have some kind of iron sights. Even the cheap ($40-50) Chinese clone carry handle/sights will do a good job if you sight the thing in and then leave it alone. (I have two of these and they're not world-class equipment by any means but they DO work and will do for most civilian uses.)
The M4-type telestock looks cool but is not as comfortable to shoot. It is useful however if children or small women will be shooting your rifle, as it adjusts to different lengths. I prefer the standard fixed A1 stock.
If you're looking at a short (16") carbine, do yourself a HUGE favor and check out the so-called midlength gas systems instead of the standard M4 carbine length gas system/handguards. The midlength is just a better mousetrap all the way around.
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I know its almost a year later to be asking this question. But here goes. I've heard this a couple of times on this subject on AR-15s'. Why would I want to go with a 5.56 mm as opposed to a .223. I can't seem to find any 5.56 mm for sale. But I can find alot .223 from ammo companys and If I want to reload there is alot out there in .223 none in 5.56 mm that I can find. Is 5.56 a NATO round? Why buy an AR in a caliber thats hard to find or too expensive to shoot. I know there must be a good reason but no one has touched on why 5.56 mm is better or worse than the .223. Or if this subject has been talked about on this forum maybe I just missed it.
5.56 is the NATO round, mil-surp is in 5.56; .223 is typically the civilian. they are not the same, but the differences are slight - higher pressure in the military round, and a couple thousands of an inch longer case. Rifles rated for 5.56 will fire .223. In reality most modern rifles in .223 will also fire 5.56 safely, an older .223 may not be so safe. Others may disagree but a modern AR rifle in .223 will probably handle 5.56 mil-surp without a problem - if you can still find it without breaking the bank.
This has been discussed, I'm too tired (lazy) to search for it.
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Thanks for your input this does help in making my decision on what caliber to invest in. Now that I know this has been discussed before I'll page thru past discussions until I find it. Once again Thanks
5.56 is the NATO round, mil-surp is in 5.56; .223 is typically the civilian. they are not the same, but the differences are slight - higher pressure in the military round, and a couple thousands of an inch longer case. Rifles rated for 5.56 will fire .223. In reality most modern rifles in .223 will also fire 5.56 safely, an older .223 may not be so safe. Others may disagree but a modern AR rifle in .223 will probably handle 5.56 mil-surp without a problem - if you can still find it without breaking the bank.
This has been discussed, I'm too tired (lazy) to search for it.
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Wisconsin-
5.56 guns will shoot .223. .223 guns will - at best - not handle the 5.56 well, and at worst will fail catastrophically, damaging the gun and potentially you. Not to mention, for the aforementioned reason alone, if you ever need to sell a .223-only gun, you'll never get as much out of it.
For those of you who've mentioned the Sig rifles (including you, Michael...) two dealers here in Memphis have them in stock - one had a couple, one has 8. I figure most dealers are starting to get a steady supply by now, but if you're still one of those folks waiting for one to come in, you might look into a transfer.
Re: 6.8SPC, I've heard scuttlebutt from several sources that at least two sizable gov't agencies are about to bid out for 6.8 guns agency-wide, which should help with the cost of ammo, as the production levels should go way up. Silver State ammo makes the best stuff in 6.8 right now, IMO. AAC and Surefire have cans available for the caliber, as well, with others forthcoming.
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I am surprised that it has not been posted yet. If you are looking for a good carbine AR at a great price, you can go to CMMG and they have a bargain bin section. There they have a bunch of AR's for $575 or so. They are 16" Carbines with flattops and adjustable stocks.
I personally, tend to keep mine basic rifle, no add on stuff. I have the stock triggers, but have a job done on them and they are not bad.
-Bidah