The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Defense and Tactics => Topic started by: azshooter270 on June 23, 2009, 11:16:14 PM
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What shot size is recommended for in-home defense? The max shot distance is likely 40ft, and closest about 10ft. And I'm thinking shotgun so as to minimize penetration past the walls. Maybe large birdshot, say #4's?, cause at shorter ranges it's basically a slug anyhow, and still likely ugly at the furthest distance.
What do you say?
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I'm using #6 but that's because it's what my local shop had cheap at the time 7 1/2 will give less chance of going through walls, I would not go heavier than #4 if you live in a suburban area.
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This is an age old debate, but I err on the side of conservatism here. The bottom line is that anything that will reliably penetrate to a BG's vitals will punch through drywall, whether it be rifle, pistol or shot gun. You don't say what gauge shotgun you use so I will assume 12. Following Mas Ayoob I would say go with #4 buck, reduced recoil. Understand it will shoot a tight group, about 2" at 12 feet so you need to aim, but has enough penetration and mass to do the job. Bird shot does not. Don't beleive me. Go to www.theboxotruth.com and follow the various penetration tests of drywall, water jugs etc. The author prefers 00 buck, I scale back to #4 buck as it is likely to penetrate BUT has enough ummph to do the job. Understand that with reduced recoil at across the living room distance with a high quality buffered load, there should be no excuse to miss and have fliers as you're shooting 1 1/2 to 3 inch groups and if you aim these will be absorbed by the BG. Birdshot just won't do it. It only penetrates through about an inch of flesh. Not enough to hit anything vital, and has too little mass to provide knock down power.You get a pissed off bad guy and no stopping the fight (just ask Dick Cheney ;D). USE BUCK SHOT!!!! To quote the Box O' Truth, save the bird shot for little birds. Its your call, but I will not trust my life to birdshot, ever, and I've been running shotguns for better than 30 years.
FQ13
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I load up with trap loads (7 1/2 or 8 shot low base). I have cases of the stuff around, it is going to give minimal penetration on walls, if you have furniture it will not penetrate that, but it will do serious damage anywhere within the house.
I've killed everything from a coyote down out to 20 yards on the yard, so I'm not concerned about enough hit for a person inside the house.
I do have some larger shot in high base (3" shells) in holders with the gun if I need it. The gun is 8+1, and I keep one in the chamber, but only six in the magazine. This way I can pump a couple "big dudes" in if I need before the SHTF. I also have some slugs with the gun to grab if needed.
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I load up with trap loads (7 1/2 or 8 shot low base). I have cases of the stuff around, it is going to give minimal penetration on walls, if you have furniture it will not penetrate that, but it will do serious damage anywhere within the house.
I've killed everything from a coyote down out to 20 yards on the yard, so I'm not concerned about enough hit for a person inside the house.
I do have some larger shot in high base (3" shells) in holders with the gun if I need it. The gun is 8+1, and I keep one in the chamber, but only six in the magazine. This way I can pump a couple "big dudes" in if I need before the SHTF. I also have some slugs with the gun to grab if needed.
If it won't penetrate furniture, how will it get through the breast bone and to the heart and lungs? Just ask'in.
FQ13
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If it won't penetrate furniture, how will it get through the breast bone and to the heart and lungs? Just ask'in.
FQ13
It'll knock them off their feet, it will damage organs, and it will take out eyes. Inside four feet it will take out your skull ... sadly I've tried to put more than one back together.
Just a few pellets getting into the lungs and liver will bring death pretty damn quick, and these loads have that capability.
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...but has enough penetration and mass to do the job. Bird shot does not. ... and if you aim these will be absorbed by the BG. Birdshot just won't do it. It only penetrates through about an inch of flesh. ..., and I've been running shotguns for better than 30 years.
FQ13
Even at short distance, only an inch in flesh?
I've been "peppered" many times out dove hunting, but it's never broken the skin, but that's a80+ yds.
It's funny you mentioned #4 buck, because I remember hearing that years ago (maybe that's what FBI uses?)
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Look guys, you're asking me questions that you should be asking Pincus and other folks that know. Me, I'm an academic, I research. But on this topic, its all book learnin' as I've never shot anybody, been shot, or seen anyone shot. The good lord willing it will stay that way. I would once again reccomend www.theboxotruth.com. The guy's tests are very commonsense, practical and well photographed and explained with no jargon. Likewise there is an excllent podcast from Ayoob and others on shotgun loads that was postedon this board by Eric I think (its about an hour long but worth every minute). These are two of my sources as well as talking to LEOs and military about what they load and why. I am no expert. I'm just saying what I use and why.
FQ13
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Interesting web site and experiment. I would have liked to see a 12ga out of short shotgun barrel v. the Judge. Maybe its there is more on the website. I too tired to look tonite.
Thanks
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I saw a video online here, sorry I can't find it right now the video page don't got it, where Mr. Pincus shot though several dry wall setups. The wall simulators where set up, I believe, six deep, with each wall four or five feet apart. The .45, .223, slug, and buck penetrated all or near every wall, but the #6 shot only went through one piece of sheet rock and stopped without going all the way through a single wall. An obvious winner, it kept any extremely tight group tight group at a several yards out of a tactical shotgun. It would be very destructive to any intruder in side the home and reduce the chance of over penetration. Like the team said, soft tissue, face, eyes, lungs, heart, even if you don't have any mortal wounds on the first shot, your BG's going down with a half roll of quarters in lead going in him. Follow up shots if you need to. In my defense shot gun for home, I'm running 3" #6 magnums, turkey loads. 40 feet is only ten yards, you should hold a tight group at that and be highly effective. Yeah you want to shoot buck, but I'd play it safe with the family and use a round you know still won't let you down. Reference this video for some ammo info, I found it very informative, they show the power of slug, buck, and bird shot, as well as some exotics.
You may consider prioritizing a load out, similar to LE, by first four rounds #6, and the last rounds using a heavy buck, in case you have to shoot through cover, such as heavy furniture or a vehicle.
Good luck.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ievbU3xIYGQ
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Here you are TX_Bryan:
http://www.downrange.tv/bestdefense/wall-penetration.htm (http://www.downrange.tv/bestdefense/wall-penetration.htm)
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I saw a video online here, sorry I can't find it right now the video page don't got it, where Mr. Pincus shot though several dry wall setups. The wall simulators where set up, I believe, six deep, with each wall four or five feet apart. The .45, .223, slug, and buck penetrated all or near every wall, but the #6 shot only went through one piece of sheet rock and stopped without going all the way through a single wall. An obvious winner, it kept any extremely tight group tight group at a several yards out of a tactical shotgun. It would be very destructive to any intruder in side the home and reduce the chance of over penetration. Like the team said, soft tissue, face, eyes, lungs, heart, even if you don't have any mortal wounds on the first shot, your BG's going down with a half roll of quarters in lead going in him. Follow up shots if you need to. In my defense shot gun for home, I'm running 3" #6 magnums, turkey loads. 40 feet is only ten yards, you should hold a tight group at that and be highly effective. Yeah you want to shoot buck, but I'd play it safe with the family and use a round you know still won't let you down. Reference this video for some ammo info, I found it very informative, they show the power of slug, buck, and bird shot, as well as some exotics.
You may consider prioritizing a load out, similar to LE, by first four rounds #6, and the last rounds using a heavy buck, in case you have to shoot through cover, such as heavy furniture or a vehicle.
Good luck.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ievbU3xIYGQ
I agree (except with your feet to yards conversion :)). I like the turkey load for home defense, except I am set up with super magnums.
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Fuzdaddy, thanks for putting up that link, I've been looking for it since FQ first posted his boxotruth link. The boxotruth test is not valid as it does not simulate real world wall spacing so it does not allow for pellet dispersal or energy loss.
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OO and #1 buck for me. Birdshot may hurt him and if it penetrates nice it may kill them. OO and #1 Buck will stop them and kill them. Threat over.
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OO and #1 buck for me. Birdshot may hurt him and if it penetrates nice it may kill them. OO and #1 Buck will stop them and kill them. Threat over.
Thats nice, I can do it with out putting my neighbors at risk.
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Tom
I think some of our disagreement here, which is purely technical, may be a lack of info on our situations. I live in a closely built (about 15 feet between houses) subdivision with cinder block exterior walls. For this, I feel comfortable with low recoil #4 buck, but not .556 or a slug. You mentioned in another thread that you lived on the second floor. By this, I'm assuming an apartment. Given this, your choice of #6 shot seems reasonable, as you can't risk penetrating dry wall. I think we both agree that we would rather lose a gun fight than shoot the neighbor's kid with a stray round. Its all driven by the environment. You do the best you can with what you've got.
FQ13
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Tom
I think some of our disagreement here, which is purely technical, may be a lack of info on our situations. I live in a closely built (about 15 feet between houses) subdivision with cinder block exterior walls. For this, I feel comfortable with low recoil #4 buck, but not .556 or a slug. You mentioned in another thread that you lived on the second floor. By this, I'm assuming an apartment. Given this, your choice of #6 shot seems reasonable, as you can't risk penetrating dry wall. I think we both agree that we would rather lose a gun fight than shoot the neighbor's kid with a stray round. Its all driven by the environment. You do the best you can with what you've got.
FQ13
In your situation I'd feel safe enough using OO, I have 2 layers of wood lathe and horsehair plaster between me and my neighbors, also, small rooms.
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Ask Kurt Cobain how deadly birdshot can be!!!
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Ask Kurt Cobain how deadly birdshot can be!!!
Can't, I don't think they ever found his ears. ;D
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Ask Kurt Cobain how deadly birdshot can be!!!
Some how I doubt the BG is going to let me put the muzzle in his mouth. ;)
FQ13
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Some how I doubt the BG is going to let me put the muzzle in his mouth. ;)
FQ13
Take your new Maverick to the range, set up a milk carton full of water and shoot it from ten or fifteen feet with #6 shot. It's quite a show! I don't have one room in my home more than 16 feet square. It would be a non issue, the BG is gonna lose!
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FBI standard is 12 inches of penetration. 2" of water equals 1" of ballistic gellatin. That means 4 milk jugs worth of penetration. I think the Feebs are a bit paranoid after the Miami shootings and I'll setlle for six, but that still means blowing up the third jug, even if the shot doesn't exit. I'm not confident birdshot will do it, though in an apartment situation I'd settle for that because the only thing worse than getting killed is killing an innocent by mistake.
FQ13
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About ten years ago hear in Western Montana, About ten miles from my place. A bird hunter was charged by a Grizzly Bear. He pulled up and shot him at 30 feet. Hit him in the neck with # 6 steel shot. The bear ran over him , but was dead on its feet at the time. It bent the barrel of his shotgun as he went over. He couldn't keep the hide, But he said "at least he still had a trophy to hang an the wall".
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About ten years ago hear in Western Montana, About ten miles from my place. A bird hunter was charged by a Grizzly Bear. He pulled up and shot him at 30 feet. Hit him in the neck with # 6 steel shot. The bear ran over him , but was dead on its feet at the time. It bent the barrel of his shotgun as he went over. He couldn't keep the hide, But he said "at least he still had a trophy to hang an the wall".
Works for me....thanks Buckshot!
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I think we just scored our first human subject on whether birdshot is fatal.
And the winner is........................FQ13..........YEAH!!!!!!!!
Now go stand against the wall and you tell us if it kills you when we shoot you with birdshot. O.K.?
After all, It's not going to penetrate but an inch. ???
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I think we just scored our first human subject on whether birdshot is fatal.
And the winner is........................FQ13..........YEAH!!!!!!!!
Now go stand against the wall and you tell us if it kills you when we shoot you with birdshot. O.K.?
After all, It's not going to penetrate but an inch. ???
Hey! And again HEY! I maybe a little left (in a world comosed purely of those who lurk on gun boards, because I'm Attila the Hun to most of my collegues for having associated myself with the military and being part of the evil NRA), but I am no ones crash test dummy for birdshot. However, I will make you a deal. You shoot at me at 12 feet with #6 and I shoot at you with #4 buck, AND you get to hide behind one sheet of drywall. We flip a coin to see who goes first. ;D Bottom line, load with what you feel comfortable with, and I will do the same.
FQ13
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I have 00 buck loaded with slugs in reserve.
But I live in the country and if I accidentally miss (highly unlikely) and shoot one of my neighbors, then the nosey B*&%$$tch shouldn't have been snooping around outside my house. ;D
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I don't want to be hit by any of it...
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FQ Posted "the only thing worse than getting killed is killing an innocent by mistake."
You have that backwards.
It's stupid to still be debating this, Texas Bryan posted the obvious answer on the first page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ievbU3xIYGQ
Block walls like what FQ is talking about should stop most shot, but in the section of this video about exotic ammo it shows a slug of compressed lead powder taking a hinge off a door, in soft tissue it will perform as a slug, but when it hits the block wall it turns to dust.
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Not a lot of experience with this, but I have been hit by a shotgun pellet. I think it was No. 6. It was a straight back ricochet and total distance was about 50 feet. Not sure what caused it to come back at me as the hardest item downrange was the 2X shelf about 18 inches high we were setting soft targets on. The pellet went through my overhanging shirt and struck my heavy leather belt. It left a dimple in the belt and raised a pretty good welt on my hide. It stung like a SOB and for a moment I was afraid to look. This was one pellet that had to have lost a tremedous amout of energy before it stung me. I'm sure that if it hadn't hit my belt it would have penetrated flesh. I certainly wouldn't want to have been hit with a load of No. 6 with out the energy dump.
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(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b346/long762range/P1020224.jpg)
What?
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I am kinda' scracthin my head on that reply as well, but then again, I ain't that smart.
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Spammer
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Seeing what #8 does to 4-legged pests at close range (NOT MUCH), my HD shotgun has #4 turkey as a minimum and mostly 00 and slug on/in it.
I live in the country and need a Barrett to hit the neighbors, but my house is small enough that not even #8 would dissipate fast enough before it could find a kids' bedroom.
My answer (thanks to TBD) is to go to ground and put the misses and (hopefully) overpenetrations in the ceiling.
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Lightfield 2 3/4 Sabot slug with a 7/8 oz slug for my 20 gauge Remington 870. Same type of round, also from Lightfield for my 12 gauge Remington 870. If it can put down a deer, I am sure it will put down a bad guy. ;D
And yes, I will monitor what is behind the threat I may be shooting at.
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http://www.firequest.com/catalog/flechettemoreinfo.html
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Those flechette rounds have always had me curious. I know they used them in Viet Nam. Anyone ever heard how useful they are?
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Those flechette rounds have always had me curious. I know they used them in Viet Nam. Anyone ever heard how useful they are?
Not very well, that's why the military doesn't use them now
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Those flechette rounds have always had me curious. I know they used them in Viet Nam. Anyone ever heard how useful they are?
To quote Mas Ayoob, save them and the Dragons Breath for Halloween. I mean, small light darts shot out of a smooth bore? It sounds like one of those weapos that got Bevis and Butthead excited in the lab, but in the field, I'd expect most guys carried buck shot.
FQ13
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To quote Mas Ayoob, save them and the Dragons Breath for Halloween. I mean, small light darts shot out of a smooth bore? It sounds like one of those weapos that got Bevis and Butthead excited in the lab, but in the field, I'd expect most guys carried buck shot.
FQ13
The 155 and 105 howitzer shells in a direct fire mode worked pretty good for breaking up "human wave" attacks by the Viets, but Civil war era canister or conventional buck shot would have worked just as well with out the R&D expense. To say nothing of the manufacturing costs as opposed to conventional shot.
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I understand that Remington just came out with a shot shell for home defense.
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I saw something about that in the shooting wire but no details.
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http://www.remington.com/products/ammunition/shotshell/home_defense/
Remington HD™ Ultimate Home Defense Loads
Remington HD Ultimate Home Defense shotgun ammunition features the same pellet material as the popular Wingmaster HD™ tungsten-bronze hunting ammunition and is offered in two loadings. Consumers can choose from a load of BB’s for the highest terminal energy or a duplex mixture of #2 and #4 pellets for excellent pattern density and outstanding stopping power with a reduced chance of over-penetration.
Both loads are 12 gauge, 2 ¾-inch with 1 1/4 ounces of shot at 1250 feet per second. At the most commonly encountered home defense distances, Remington HD Ultimate Home Defense produces very tight patterns for one-shot confidence.
HD Ultimate Home Defense ammunition is the perfect compliment to Remington’s recently expanded line of tactical shotguns. Recent additions to the line include the Model 870 Express® Tactical with XS® Ghost Ring Sights and the Model 870 Express Tactical with Gray Powder Coat Finish. Both shotguns are 12 gauge and feature 3-inch chambered 18 ½-inch barrels which are threaded for the included Tactical Extended Rem™ Choke. Average weight for both models is 7 ½-pounds, overall length is 38 ½-inches and both guns are equipped with a black synthetic stock and fore-end
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Those flechette rounds have always had me curious. I know they used them in Viet Nam. Anyone ever heard how useful they are?
in some states they are even illegal.
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In birdshot, I wouldn't recommend anything smaller than #4 plated birdshot like a turkey load....just for a little more penetration than standard birdshot. But, after the BOT tests, I upgraded to 00 buckshot...just to be on the safe side.... 8)
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In birdshot, I wouldn't recommend anything smaller than #4 plated birdshot like a turkey load....just for a little more penetration than standard birdshot. But, after the BOT tests, I upgraded to 00 buckshot...just to be on the safe side.... 8)
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I wouldn't use anything but buckshot---
with the exception of the 3 1/2" Hevi-Shot "Dead Coyote" loads of T's...
Home defense is not a situation in which to mess around.
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sanjuancb, is that you with a recurve bow? If so, glad to see another recurve bow user on here.
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sanjuancb, is that you with a recurve bow? If so, glad to see another recurve bow user on here.
Not a recurve, but a longbow. One of my uncles operates as "Plum Creek Longbows"...
The picture is me shooting one of his bows, a 47 lb. action wood and bamboo core longbow. They are awesome! It makes hunting a lot more enjoyable for me...especially the small game!
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http://www.remington.com/products/ammunition/shotshell/home_defense/
Remington HD™ Ultimate Home Defense Loads
Remington HD Ultimate Home Defense shotgun ammunition features the same pellet material as the popular Wingmaster HD™ tungsten-bronze hunting ammunition and is offered in two loadings. Consumers can choose from a load of BB’s for the highest terminal energy or a duplex mixture of #2 and #4 pellets for excellent pattern density and outstanding stopping power with a reduced chance of over-penetration.
Both loads are 12 gauge, 2 ¾-inch with 1 1/4 ounces of shot at 1250 feet per second. At the most commonly encountered home defense distances, Remington HD Ultimate Home Defense produces very tight patterns for one-shot confidence.
HD Ultimate Home Defense ammunition is the perfect compliment to Remington’s recently expanded line of tactical shotguns. Recent additions to the line include the Model 870 Express® Tactical with XS® Ghost Ring Sights and the Model 870 Express Tactical with Gray Powder Coat Finish. Both shotguns are 12 gauge and feature 3-inch chambered 18 ½-inch barrels which are threaded for the included Tactical Extended Rem™ Choke. Average weight for both models is 7 ½-pounds, overall length is 38 ½-inches and both guns are equipped with a black synthetic stock and fore-end
Which of the 2 would be better for a maximum 30 feet?
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Which of the 2 would be better for a maximum 30 feet?
I'd go for the #2 & #4 mix for your first two rounds, then run two buck, and finish it off with slugs.
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I'd go for the #2 & #4 mix for your first two rounds, then run two buck, and finish it off with slugs.
I've got an 8+1 and a 6+1. In the safe, they are kept patrol ready, so nothing in the chamber. Should I run more of the rounds of Home Defense ammo before the buck and slugs?
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Rob, the Pincanator seems to recommend # 9 shot. It works, yet doesn't over penatrate into other rooms. If you have room for 6 to 8 shells, # 9 would give you lotsa bang for the buck perhaps.
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I've got an 8+1 and a 6+1. In the safe, they are kept patrol ready, so nothing in the chamber. Should I run more of the rounds of Home Defense ammo before the buck and slugs?
Depends on your likely situation. The Home Defense ammo's primary task is knock down without over penetration, if you've got family or live in public housing I'd run more HD before anything. The idea is if you must drive an attacker from your house or engage someone outside, than you may need the opposite of the HD and need the penetration power of buck or slugs. So if your cars are being broke into you may need the buck and slug if you receive fire from the BG on the other side of the vehicle. In that case you could quickly discharge the HD in an attempt to suppress the BG or you could rack them from your weapon and start with the buck. If your inside and need to hit someone behind light cover, such as in the kitchen, then you'd need buck. You may not want to run any slugs at all. Judge your situation make that decision, but I think the key is to give yourself the ability to be effective in most environments around your property.
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Depends on your likely situation. The Home Defense ammo's primary task is knock down without over penetration, if you've got family or live in public housing I'd run more HD before anything. The idea is if you must drive an attacker from your house or engage someone outside, than you may need the opposite of the HD and need the penetration power of buck or slugs. So if your cars are being broke into you may need the buck and slug if you receive fire from the BG on the other side of the vehicle. In that case you could quickly discharge the HD in an attempt to suppress the BG or you could rack them from your weapon and start with the buck. If your inside and need to hit someone behind light cover, such as in the kitchen, then you'd need buck. You may not want to run any slugs at all. Judge your situation make that decision, but I think the key is to give yourself the ability to be effective in most environments around your property.
I'm not in public housing, but the houses are packed in pretty tight in these tract homes. Did you see the finale of Southland on NBC? Regina King's character drives away some gang hitmen with her pistol-gripped pump. She does go from the safer upstairs to chasing multiple assailants outside, which I wouldn't have recommended, but it was still a great scene. It made my wife appreciate te shotguns more.
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in some states {flechettes} are even illegal.
I'm sure they'd do the job, but to have enough to fill my Mossberg 590, I'd have to spend $60 since they're $18.95 for 3 rounds. I'll stick with my 00 Buck (Currently Federal), thanks. Of course the carry pistol is usually what I have at hand most often.
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I live in a rural area and have opted for 4 rounds of #6 followed by 2 of 00 Buck and then 2 slugs, in a Winchester 1300 Defender with 20" barrel.
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I know I'll get flack for posting this, but having fired literally tens of thousands of 12 gauge trap loads in my lifetime, and Melanie has fired thousands more that I've reloaded in all of our clay busting, I load my "House Gun" with 12 gauge trap loads. These consist of 1 1/8 ounce of #8's over 17.5 grains of Hogdon's Clays powder.
My reasoning is this. We, like many, live in a cookie cutter, track built house. It is a very nice home, but with that said I could easily kick my way through an outside wall with a pair of steel toed combat boots, and one of those "5 hour energy drinks". Bottom line, over penetration is a very serious issue! Shoot at a bad guy and accidentally hit a good guy, (neighbor), and you are looking at the a$$ end of a 6 or 7 digit law suit you will most likely lose depending on how badly you hurt, cripple, or outright kill them. To be honest shot size doesn't really matter across a living room or bedroom. The shot hasn't had enough distance to spread. If a 1 1/8 ounce trap load can break a clay target traveling at 60 MPH 35 yards away, it will easily cut a 2X4 in half from the sofa to the dining room table. I've tried it. Slugs are great, as are buckshot, but with these law schools spitting out lawyers like peanuts from a vending machine, you don't need anything from the muzzle of your gun going over your property line. If it happens when these ambulance chasers get done with you, you may be wishing the bad guy won! Just my .02 cents. Bill T.
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Lots of good stuff here guys, but we're also getting repetitive... putting this one in the archives.
-RJP