The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: deepwater on June 27, 2009, 01:08:00 PM
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http://www.nraila.org/Legislation/Read.aspx?ID=5009 (http://www.nraila.org/Legislation/Read.aspx?ID=5009)
damned potiticians!
Piracy And The Right To Self Defense
Friday, June 26, 2009
Last month we reported on the arming of merchant mariners to allow them to defend their crews and ships from pirate attacks. We noted that, with the increase in pirate attacks on the high seas, many are now realizing that firearms and armed citizens can be as effective a criminal deterrent at sea, as they are on land.
The International Maritime Organization’s (IMO) Maritime Safety Committee (MSC) wrapped up a meeting earlier this month, where it agreed on “revised guidance on combating piracy and armed robbery against ships.”
Among other things, the report recommends “guidance to shipmasters and crew…who may be kidnapped or held hostage for ransom, based on the current United Nations guidance on ‘surviving as a hostage.’”
As hard as it is to believe, the MSC report concludes that, “flag States should strongly discourage the carrying and use of firearms by seafarers for personal protection or for the protection of a ship. Seafarers, it was agreed, are civilians and the use of firearms requires special training and aptitudes and the risk of accidents with firearms carried on board ship is great. Carriage of arms on board ship may encourage attackers to carry firearms or even more dangerous weapons, thereby escalating an already dangerous situation. Any firearm on board may itself become an attractive target for an attacker. Carriage of firearms may pose an even greater danger if the ship is carrying flammable cargo or similar types of dangerous goods.”
These recommendations defy reason, given that the pirates are already heavily armed and know vessels are easy targets due to the high level of probability that seamen are unarmed.
By contrast, U.S. Representative Frank LoBiondo (R-NJ) has introduced H.R. 2984--the “United States Mariner and Vessel Protection Act of 2009.” The purpose of the Act is to assist in the defense of United States-flag vessels against piracy and to ensure the traditional right of self-defense of those vessels against piracy.
Commenting on the measure, Rep. LoBiondo, the ranking member of the U.S. House of Representatives Coast Guard and Maritime Transportation subcommittee, said: “Our merchant marine fleet is increasingly under attack from unlawful individuals and rogue groups that seek to disrupt commerce, seize U.S. and foreign crews, and instill fear on international waters. It is only appropriate that our fleets be legally allowed to defend themselves from these violent encounters. This common-sense legislation is a necessary step in empowering U.S.-flagged vessels to protect their crews and cargo.”
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I am, for once (almost) speechless. That level of stupity, learn how to be a good hostage, don't try to prevent yourself from becoming one in the first place is truly mindboggling.
FQ13
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Carriage of arms on board ship may encourage attackers to carry firearms or even more dangerous weapons, thereby escalating an already dangerous situation.
Isn't this already the issue?
If the pirates weren't carrying firearms and other aggressive weapons there wouldn't be a need for this level of protection.
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I've mentioned before that I have yet to meet a single (not 1) mariner that does not want some kind of firearm/ security team, or whatever onboard to protect them. not a single one. and some of these are real liberals. the fact is that the pirates will attack and there is nothing to be done. police? Navy? it will take the Navy too long to get to you. days, maybe weeks. this is just retarded!
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I've mentioned before that I have yet to meet a single (not 1) mariner that does not want some kind of firearm/ security team, or whatever onboard to protect them. not a single one. and some of these are real liberals. the fact is that the pirates will attack and there is nothing to be done. police? Navy? it will take the Navy too long to get to you. days, maybe weeks. this is just retarded!
No, it is the Plan. If people learn they can protect themselves, if people learn to be responsible, then they do not need the nanny gummint to protect them and be responsible for them.
Not retarded at all, just very cunning.
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No, it is the Plan. If people learn they can protect themselves, if people learn to be responsible, then they do not need the nanny gummint to protect them and be responsible for them.
Not retarded at all, just very cunning.
Fully agree with you there. That's why we are being force fed national health care. I hope that more people will wake up and realize that they are being forced into dependency. This is the first stage of becoming a slave nation. If you think I'm being over dramatic, check with me again when we are paying 70-90% of our income in taxes.
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Fully agree with you there. That's why we are being force fed national health care. I hope that more people will wake up and realize that they are being forced into dependency. This is the first stage of becoming a slave nation. If you think I'm being over dramatic, check with me again when we are paying 70-90% of our income in taxes.
You said a mouthful there.
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Fully agree with you there. That's why we are being force fed national health care. I hope that more people will wake up and realize that they are being forced into dependency. This is the first stage of becoming a slave nation. If you think I'm being over dramatic, check with me again when we are paying 70-90% of our income in taxes.
When you think about it, we may have already passed the first few stages by...but that's just me. Remember, they only tax what's easy...what's in accounts of some sort. Did you ever think about all of those dollars of yours in the bank....used to be just ink on a ledger..now they are magnetic states in a storage device.
POOF!
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Let's review...
American Ship taken hostage recently.
Crew in lifeboat with ARMED pirates.
After a few days, Seal Team EXTERMINATES pirates.
That's all good. But likely would have been avoided to begin with if the ship had some AR's even civilian versions, and training.
5 AR's blazing through 30 rd. mags each, makes it tough to approach. PERIOD.
quote from MSC:
“flag States should strongly discourage the carrying and use of firearms by seafarers for personal protection or for the protection of a ship. Seafarers, it was agreed, are civilians and the use of firearms requires special training and aptitudes and the risk of accidents with firearms carried on board ship is great. Carriage of arms on board ship may encourage attackers to carry firearms or even more dangerous weapons, thereby escalating an already dangerous situation. Any firearm on board may itself become an attractive target for an attacker. Carriage of firearms may pose an even greater danger if the ship is carrying flammable cargo or similar types of dangerous goods.”
WTF? (http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm182/twyacht/head_banging.gif)
Guns are carried on private vessels, commercial charters, and have been on board ships with all kinds of dangerous cargo for decades.
Is this MSC for real?
As far as an attractive target for the attacker, a Ma Duece with a sign that says: "Pirate photos free, look here, wait for flash."
would be fine. Hell, Israeli security teams defended a cruise ship with nothing but handguns and some courage to shoot the hell back.
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Let's review...
American Ship taken hostage recently.
Crew in lifeboat with ARMED pirates.
After a few days, Seal Team EXTERMINATES pirates.
That's all good. But likely would have been avoided to begin with if the ship had some AR's even civilian versions, and training.
5 AR's blazing through 30 rd. mags each, makes it tough to approach. PERIOD.
quote from MSC:
“flag States should strongly discourage the carrying and use of firearms by seafarers for personal protection or for the protection of a ship. Seafarers, it was agreed, are civilians and the use of firearms requires special training and aptitudes and the risk of accidents with firearms carried on board ship is great. Carriage of arms on board ship may encourage attackers to carry firearms or even more dangerous weapons, thereby escalating an already dangerous situation. Any firearm on board may itself become an attractive target for an attacker.[/b] Carriage of firearms may pose an even greater danger if the ship is carrying flammable cargo or similar types of dangerous goods.”
Guns are carried on private vessels, commercial charters, and have been on board ships with all kinds of dangerous cargo for decades.
Is this MSC for real?
As far as an attractive target for the attacker, a Ma Duece with a sign that says: "Pirate photos free, look here, wait for flash."
would be fine. Hell, Israeli security teams defended a cruise ship with nothing but handguns and some courage to shoot the hell back.
OK, so the BGs are already using full-auto AKs and RPGs. So what did this outfit miss that they think (? ? ? ) would cause the BGs to encourage them to? And would they escalate to?
Like I said earlier, they just want us to keep saying, over and over
"You're from the gummint and you're here to help . . . "
"You're from the gummint and you're here to help . . . "
"You're from the gummint and you're here to help . . . "
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Commenting on the measure, Rep. LoBiondo, the ranking member of the U.S. House of Representatives Coast Guard and Maritime Transportation subcommittee, said: “Our merchant marine fleet is increasingly under attack from unlawful individuals and rogue groups that seek to disrupt commerce, seize U.S. and foreign crews, and instill fear on international waters. It is only appropriate that our fleets be legally allowed to defend themselves from these violent encounters. This common-sense legislation is a necessary step in empowering U.S.-flagged vessels to protect their crews and cargo.”
Screw the International Maritime Organization's Maritime Safety Committee and the United Nation's guidance on "surviving as a hostage."
At least Rep. LoBiondo is making some sense. It's time for the US to chart it's own course on this one.
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It has ALWAYS been time for America to chart it's own course. F*#k the UN.
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It has ALWAYS been time for America to chart it's own course. F*#k the UN.
I wouldn't go that far because piracy was the first recognized international crime. Every nation basically gave every other nation the right to hang their own people if they were caught in the act. Piracy was seen as an act of war against all nations as it interferred with commerce and free navigation of the high seas, and this goes back to Roman times. It would be nice if the UN cracked down (and I honestly don't understand why they don't as it effects all nations equally, whether they are exporters or importers. Its not like its just US, or even western vessels being attacked). Never the less, if the US arms its flagged vessels, a smart pirate will choose another country's as these guy are in it for the money, which is hard to spend when you're dead. Even if the mariners are overwhelmed, would you choose to attack a ship that was armed, or one that probably wasn't? Even the fattest doughnut muncher on the force isn't going to get mugged. Thieves go for soft targets. Why the UN doesn't get ths, I don't understand.
FQ13
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I wouldn't go that far because piracy was the first recognized international crime. Every nation basically gave every other nation the right to hang their own people if they were caught in the act. Piracy was seen as an act of war against all nations as it interferred with commerce and free navigation of the high seas, and this goes back to Roman times. It would be nice if the UN cracked down (and I honestly don't understand why they don't as it effects all nations equally, whether they are exporters or importers. Its not like its just US, or even western vessels being attacked). Never the less, if the US arms its flagged vessels, a smart pirate will choose another country's as these guy are in it for the money, which is hard to spend when you're dead. Even if the mariners are overwhelmed, would you choose to attack a ship that was armed, or one that probably wasn't? Even the fattest doughnut muncher on the force isn't going to get mugged. Thieves go for soft targets. Why the UN doesn't get ths, I don't understand.
FQ13
We all know that.
Why look to the UN? They are corrupt, venal, and basically worthless - unless you consider the whole undermining of the US Constitution thing. Tom answered it best:
It has ALWAYS been time for America to chart it's own course. F*#k the UN.
Let every ship be armed, either through national military or contractors, and the piracy issue will all but disappear. Better yet, send the UN into Somalia and let them try to solve the country's many ills - that is a much better use for them. But again, the UN is corrupt, venal and damn near worthless.
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I got this emailed to me the other day.
http://www.maritimepiracysummit.com/Event.aspx?id=203832&utm_campaign=vip
I'm sure piracy will end under the weight of the powerpoint presentations alone.
Piracy has been around as long as there has been ocean commerce.
Hang them when you catch them, sink their boats, bombard their home ports.
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Here is what people should be doing with Pirates.
According to several news sources, Russian yacht owners will begin offering "pirate hunting" vacations to those interested in wielding AK-47's and shooting at pirates off the coast of Somalia.
Tickets aboard the ocean liners, which will cruise at about five miles per hour in an attempt to attract pirates, will cost about US$5,000, with AK-47's and ammunition available for rent each day. The ships will be protected from pirates by private security guards made up of ex-special forces troops.
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http://www.amo-union.net/article.php?a=418 (http://www.amo-union.net/article.php?a=418)
House approves Naval force protection for U.S.-flagged merchant vessels hauling PL-480 and other government cargoes through “regions at high risk of piracy”
The House of Representatives has approved legislation to require “embarked military personnel” aboard some U.S.-flagged merchant ships in waters prone to piracy.
The measure was an amendment to H.R. 2647, a fiscal 2010 defense budget authorization bill that cleared by a vote of 389-22. Rep. Elijah Cummings (D-MD) filed the amendment.
Under the Cummings amendment, the Secretary of Defense would be directed to provide armed security teams for U.S.-flagged vessels carrying PL-480 grain and other government cargoes “in regions at high risk of piracy.”
In recent testimony before House and Senate subcommittees, the Department of Defense opposed the use of military detachments to protect U.S.-flagged cargo vessels in perilous areas, framing it as a “resource” issue and arguing that vessel operators alone are responsible for ship security.
But Rep. Cummings — who took DOD to task on this issue as chairman of the House Subcommittee on Coast Guard and Maritime Transportation — disagreed sharply.
“We would never leave the U.S. homeland unguarded if it were at risk of an attack, and we should apply the same standard to our ships instead of leaving them to fend for themselves,” he said upon House passage of H.R. 2647. “We anticipate that embarking military security personnel on these vessels will require far less manpower than patrolling the region with multiple Navy vessels and be much more efficient and effective in keeping our mariners safe.”
The Cummings amendment was a response to increasing incidents of pirate attacks upon merchant vessels in the Gulf of Aden and in the Indian Ocean off the coast of Somalia. According to Rep. Cummings, there were 114 pirate attacks upon merchant vessels and 29 successful hijackings off the Horn of Africa through mid-May 2009, compared with a total of 111 attacks in 2008.
Moreover, Somali pirates threatened publicly to avenge the deaths of three pirates and the arrest of one by U.S. Navy commandos during the recent case involving the U.S.-flagged Maersk Alabama and its captain, Richard Phillips.
In May 2009, the U.S.-flagged Maersk Virginia — under the command of Capt. Sean Hughes — evaded Somali pirates for the second time in six months.
The International Organization of Masters, Mates and Pilots and the Marine Engineers' Beneficial Association represent the officers aboard the Maersk Alabama. American Maritime Officers represents the deck and engine officers aboard the Maersk Virginia. The Seafarers International Union represents the unlicensed personnel on both vessels.
“Our merchant fleet has always depended on our nation's Naval power to ensure its safety, and we cannot shirk that duty now,” Rep. Cummings said. “Embarking military security personnel on these vessels makes a loud statement that our nation stands behind these ships, and that we will not allow pirates to intimidate us.”#
PL480 cargo is government food aid. they will protect it because their paying for it. meanwhile the rest of us have to suffer.
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Here is what people should be doing with Pirates.
According to several news sources, Russian yacht owners will begin offering "pirate hunting" vacations to those interested in wielding AK-47's and shooting at pirates off the coast of Somalia.
Tickets aboard the ocean liners, which will cruise at about five miles per hour in an attempt to attract pirates, will cost about US$5,000, with AK-47's and ammunition available for rent each day. The ships will be protected from pirates by private security guards made up of ex-special forces troops.
If I weren't among the ranks of the unemployed at the moment, I would so be there!
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Here is what people should be doing with Pirates.
According to several news sources, Russian yacht owners will begin offering "pirate hunting" vacations to those interested in wielding AK-47's and shooting at pirates off the coast of Somalia.
Tickets aboard the ocean liners, which will cruise at about five miles per hour in an attempt to attract pirates, will cost about US$5,000, with AK-47's and ammunition available for rent each day. The ships will be protected from pirates by private security guards made up of ex-special forces troops.
Sounds like fun. Do you know the name of the travel agent? ;D
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It has ALWAYS been time for America to chart it's own course. F*#k the UN.
Absolutely agree with you Tom, the UN is as worthless as the ACLU. We'd be soooooooo much better off without either of them. The UN is a total bad joke. We should have sent them packing years ago. Instead we continue to host the moth*&^%$%ers.
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Absolutely agree with you Tom, the UN is as worthless as the ACLU. We'd be soooooooo much better off without either of them. The UN is a total bad joke. We should have sent them packing years ago. Instead we continue to host the moth*&^%$%ers.
Keep your friends close and your enemies closer, Kid. The UN is a PITA constantly, occasionally useful, and potentially a danger if it doesn't understand that it is dependent on us, hence the New York venue.
FQ13
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They had an excuse when they came up with the "League of Nations", ignorance, there were many who thought it was a waste of time and money but no one had a good bad example. After THAT was such a glowing success only a fool would have expected anything different from the UN. and after 50 years of watching their incompetence only a liberal could find any practical positive use for the organization.