The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: fightingquaker13 on July 06, 2009, 04:26:39 AM
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Here's the thing. I've got my brand shiny new AR. It's a 16 inch barrel, M-4 configuration from DPMS. I bought this as an SHTF weapon. I've got a perfectly good 9mm and a very nice 12 gauge. The question is, how do I set this up? Do I treat it like an AK, across the living room to maybe 150yards, with iron sights or a red dot? Or do I treat it like a rifle, figuring 50-200 yards with some nice glass on top? I have the scope. Budget is definately an issue. I was thinking a tru-glow (or alternative you suggest) for the carbine, or a B@L Elite for the rifle (already own one). I am curious as to your suggestions. Pretend that its your new gun, with $250 to spend. How would you set it up? Forget lasers and flashlights and the like, I have no interest. (Not that they aren't valid options, just that I don't see myself kicking down doors in the near future). The floor is yours
thanks
FQ13
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What's the mission? What's the threat? How do you plan to use the DPMS?
Once you answer these - honestly - then you will know how to set it up.
If it were mine (and I have one BTW), I would get good with the iron sites, sighted in to 200 yards, then I would slap the Tru-Glo red-dot on it (I did - first one was defective BTW, replaced, no questions) and get good with them from 5 to 200 yards.
At that point, you're good to go.
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I have my A2 set up with both a Leupold VX-1 2-7 x 33, and a Bushnell Trophy red dot. This is the three gun set up, and it is going to get moved over to my new 16".
I'm planning a scope for the A2, and will dedicate if for more of a medium to long range gun.
The 7.62 will probably get a similar setup as the 5.56 16".
The hardware I have for all these optic choices is all quick release, so I can take it off and put it back on easily. It is also usable with the iron sights without removing the optics - see through mounts or iron sights usable through the red dots.
If you want a truly SHTF weapon it needs to be minimal in gadgets, and you don't want something that relies completely on batteries. It is one thing to keep the batteries fresh for a Saturday night invasion and gun fight, but what do you do in month 11 of an 18 month survival test and the batteries are depleted? A more important thing with a SHTF carbine is familuarity! Your defensive handgun should be just an extension of your arm and a point and shoot item. The carbine should be the same. Before you hang anything on it, spend a couple hundred dollars on ammo and drill, drill, drill. Or, in the out of context sound bite of Mrs. Palin "Drill baby drill!" If the left is going to turn it into a bad phrase I'm going to take it back to good ;D
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Carbine
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FQ, they covered both the points I would have raised,
1) mission, OK you want it for SHTF, Will it be for general purpose, or left by one window for the long shot you can't take with the shot gun ?
Assuming general purpose we come to
2) I don't like relying on batteries either, when I was in the National Guard I worked with the Supply Sgt. and in the field batteries were the one thing we NEVER had enough of, If the Army has trouble keeping up with demand where does that leave civilians when the stores are gone ? By the same token you do not want to be spending much time picking up your sight picture, so my choice would be either fiber optics or better still the tritium illuminated Fiber optics from Tru Glo, then, as they say about going to Carnagie Hall, practice man, practice.
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As the others have said, in a SHTF situation, simplicity is the rule of the day.
If it were my rifle, and short-to-medium range SHTF use were my intention, then I would use either quick-detachable or see-through scope mounts with a fixed power (4x or 6x) scope with 30mm tube (max light gathering).
FWIW.....just my 2 pennies.
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MOAB.....(Massive Ordnance Air Blast Bomb) google it..clears a half mile radius of any and all zombie like creatures!
Or an AC 130 gunship.....just for the fun of it! ;D
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MOAB.....(Massive Ordnance Air Blast Bomb) google it..clears a half mile radius of any and all zombie like creatures!
Or an AC 130 gunship.....just for the fun of it! ;D
I think you posted in the wrong thread....
http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=7550.0
(http://smileyx.com/smilies/2erOBh1.gif)
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MOAB.....(Massive Ordnance Air Blast Bomb) google it..clears a half mile radius of any and all zombie like creatures!
Or an AC 130 gunship.....just for the fun of it! ;D
Timothy
Due respect, but you were navy. In the army, they kind of discouraged us from calling in daisy cutters for close air support. (spoilsports)
As far as the AC-130, if you'll pay one to follow me around, I'll give you my AR. ;D
FQ13
MEANWHILE, BACK AT THE THREAD........
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here are some sites that will help
http://www.larrywillis.com/AR-15Rsight.html
http://ar15zeroing.com/
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Timothy
Due respect, but you were navy. In the army, they kind of discouraged us from calling in daisy cutters for close air support. (spoilsports)
As far as the AC-130, if you'll pay one to follow me around, I'll give you my AR. ;D
FQ13
MEANWHILE, BACK AT THE THREAD........
DON'T GET HIM PO'ed. We need a Navy guy to calculate the drift rate of an average thread.
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Pistol, shotgun, carbine, then go buy you a 700 in .308, set the carbine up with holo or red dot sight. But like Tom said, I wouldn't count on batteries, have back up iron on stand by. I'm set up with pistol, shotgun, carbine, and rifle, but I still got work to do getting the right calibers in there.
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First off, a SHTF weapon should be as general purpose as possible, you are not using it for knocking down doors and clearing houses. The AR-15 is dependent on velocity for maximum effectiveness, so you want a long barrel to maximize velocity.
Second, you need to keep the weapon working so you need a butt-load of spare parts. Brownells probably won't be delivering after TSHTF. I recommend at least 2 full trigger groups, 2 complete bolt-heads, 5 complete spring-sets and extra stocks, handguards, pistolgrips, CHARGING HANDLES (they get bent up more than most people realize) and anything else you can get. several extractors and firing pins above and beyond the bolt-heads are necessary as well.
Third, AR mags suck! Like beer cans, they are not meant to be reused over long periods of time (just one more strike against it IMHO) so you need a butt-load of them too, 50 at least, if you want to keep it working. Yes I know some mags are better than average, but as a general rule my statement stands.
Fourth, in my own view, and semi-automatic carbine with an intermediate round, should be relegated to retreat defense and use by those who cannot use a full power rifle. As such, I would make it standard A2 configuration with good iron-sights and the only optics I would consider would be an Aimpoint, ACOG or Elcan, nothing else is robust enough to handle extended use without support and only the aimpoint has a long enough battery life to consider in a situation where batteries are likely to be rare or unavailable.
Fifth, lots and LOTS of ammo! If you have a bean shooter, be ready to throw lots of beans.
Lastly, sell it and buy an AK! You will need lots fewer spare parts, it will run dirtier and more neglected than any AR, and it fire something that you can kill a decent sized animal with.
After TSHTF you will find that your rifle will be far more important for killing food and pests than people and while no Semi-automatic carbine is ideal for hunting larger game, the 7.62x39 is far better suited for it than any 5.56. Likewise, when you go out in the field for any reason except when you are specifically hunting, you will be carrying your defensive weapon rather than a hunting weapon. After TSHTF you will need to kill food animals when you CAN. If Bambi or Bullwinkel hop out in front of you you need to bag him, because, as every hunter knows, they are never around when you are looking for them.
My primary weapon for SHTF use is a full sized General Purpose Battle Rifle (H&K 91, CETME, M-1, M1A, etc) because they are good for something other than spraying a lot of bullets and hoping to kill what you shoot at. If I hit an Elk it will almost definitely be going into my freezer (or smokehouse) and without tracking it all day or requiring riddling its meat with bullets or trying for a head shot. Likewise, if Mad-Max shows up with his semi-armored post-apocalyptic V-8, I'm gonna riddle his ass with holes, not muss up his paint-job, to say nothing of the guy hiding behind a lodge-pole pine.
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DON'T GET HIM PO'ed. We need a Navy guy to calculate the drift rate of an average thread.
Thread Drift Rate.....directly proportional to the factor of giveativity as relating to the binary qoutient of hogwash as determined by how much wood he could chuck, IF a woodchuck could chuck wood!
Not to be confused with givafukativity which by definition, cannot be mathmatically defined.......
;)
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Thread Drift Rate.....directly proportional to the factor of giveativity as relating to the binary qoutient of hogwash as determined by how much wood he could chuck, IF a woodchuck could chuck wood!
Not to be confused with givafukativity which by definition, cannot be mathmatically defined.......
;)
Its inversely proportionate you idiot!
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Its inversely proportionate you idiot!
Take it easy, he's holding the special slide rule upside down. ;)
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Its inversely proportionate you idiot!
Mathmatically dislexic..... :'(
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Take it easy, he's holding the special slide rule upside down. ;)
Be careful there Sonny, some us had to learn with a slide rule.....I didn't own a calculator till tech school in the Navy! Spring of '76....took twenty d-cell batteries and a hand truck to carry it...
;D ;D
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Don't forget the 'Discombobulation Theory', as it directly affects things as well.
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Rifle and carbine. Carbine for closer quarters. Rifle for distance.
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Rifle and carbine. Carbine for closer quarters. Rifle for distance.
Drift-killer.
;D ;) ;D
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Drift-killer.
;D ;) ;D
Yea Ping, what gives? Buzzkill DUDE!
Word!
;D
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Rifle and carbine. Carbine for closer quarters. Rifle for distance.
All that and such a simple answer. +1
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Rifle and carbine. Carbine for closer quarters. Rifle for distance.
Yeah,but which for both? If I knew the scenario, it would be an easy call. Shot gun for CQB, scoped rifle for long range.The question is, which for a general purpose weapon? Good enough at both, probabbly not ideal for either. PS Anyone heard anything about the Vortex strikefire red dot?
FQ13
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Yeah,but which for both? If I knew the scenario, it would be an easy call. Shot gun for CQB, scoped rifle for long range.The question is, which for a general purpose weapon? Good enough at both, probabbly not ideal for either. PS Anyone heard anything about the Vortex strikefire red dot?
FQ13
Look, go with the M4 carbine setup with the reddot and BUIS set to 200 yards. The carbine is good to what? 4-500 yards? And the rifle maybe another 100 or so. Odds are you will never be in need of reaching out to 600 yards anyhow, and for that you will need an M1A.
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Look, go with the M4 carbine setup with the reddot and BUIS set to 200 yards. The carbine is good to what? 4-500 yards? And the rifle maybe another 100 or so. Odds are you will never be in need of reaching out to 600 yards anyhow, and for that you will need an M1A.
Thanks....you beat me to it, but that is what I was seriously thinking also.
If you already have the carbine, set it up for work at appropriate distances and practice with it. With the right loads, a carbine can be almost as accurate for SHTF purposes as a rifle.
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How far do your sight lines extend ?, Fl. lots of vegetation, unless you are out side firing down the street you will not be able to see a target over 100 yards away, either stick with Iron or the ruggedest optic you can find with the understanding it is for fast target acquisition, not sniping.
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Sorry for drift killing. I will head to the corner with my sliderule. :)
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Sorry for drift killing. I will head to the corner with my sliderule. :)
Well, don't be sorry.....we need it from time to time or we'd get totally out of hand.......... us?.....out of hand?
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Most of my go to, long guns are carbines, ( is that an oxymoron? ) because it is light, and short, easy to handle, so I will carry it. I love my M1a's, but I have humped one, for a full day, and well, I ain't 20 any more. They will stay in my stable, but a word of advice, if you pack a full size rifle, like the M1, M1a, HK 91, FN FAL, sling it right off the bat, if you keep it in one hand cruising, it will get very old, very fast. If your like KSAIL, fresh from the sand box, your used to carrying much more and god bless ya.
My personal carbine that is the grab an go, an A3 DPMS, 16" with a comp M2 aimpoint, stock front sight base and a Troy folding rear sight. So far always reliable, and it has 2 30rd mags in a magcinch attached, so if I'm out in 5 seconds, I got 60 rds at the ready. It does have a flashlight attached. Quad rail, and I'm thinking a new attachment, not a coffee grinder, but a simple tube or container of some type to carry spare batteries, otis cleaner, spare parts etc.. My aimpoint is a 10,000 hr, May send it in for the 50,000 hr upgrade. 10,000 hrs gives you 1 yr, if you leave it on, in a low setting for the whole yr. Watch the classifieds and you can find one for under 400, steep, but worth it.
AK's, I'm cool,with that, it does have better penetration, and 200 yrds and under, great, short rifle, + I have lots of it stored away, 7.62x39 of course. This cartridge will, penetrate a telephone pole and have enough energy left over to knock over a 25lb steel plate. Course sights, not ideally placed, but usable, better than average trigger pull, if long.
If you own an AR with a 1in8 twist or faster, and you can afford it, check out the mk77 ammo, 77 grn bullet is getting great reviews from the sand box, for penetration and accuracy. If not the 62-63 grn armor piercing, is a good alternative. Leave out hollow point and soft points in .223. They will blow up on foliage.
Magazines, the AK mags and M1a/M14 mags are robust, but I have Vietnam era m16 mags that still function flawlessly, I try not to stomp on them, as they will bend, Pmags are stouter.
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He has spoken. ;D You can't keep from learning around this fellow.
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He has spoken. ;D You can't keep from learning around this fellow.
He IS a wonderful source for information and assureadly has forgotton more than most of us will ever learn....
;)
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Well as you said cost ($250) was an issue I would stick with the carbine. The extra 4 inches of the rifle don't gain that much, but if your ever force to fight from within your home or inside some building if the SHTF the lack of those 4 inches could be much important. I would be sure to keep the iron sights on any weapon but I would also put some sort of low power optic like and ACOG (though that particular item would bust your budget, it would be worth saving for) anything reliable 4X or less. With the BAC sighting method it will work for the most situations 0-300 yards or so. And I would add the light you can do it fairly inexpensively. Most crime happens at night so light is your usually your friend. I have at least 6 surefire light laying around the house. If theirs anything left in your budget buy more magazines you can never have enough! I would try to have at least a dozen good quality Mags like Brownells or P-Mag for each SHTF rifle I own. At least that's how my first AR is setup! ;) 8)
P.S. I also really like a collapsable stock for the adjustable length of pull it gives you!
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Rifle and carbine. Carbine for closer quarters. Rifle for distance.
Short, sweet and on the money.
For a holed up SHTF scenario.........Several of each please and all of the ammo that I have in stock, maybe, I mean I could have, not really, you can't have any. ;D
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If you're looking for a good, low-cost, do everything scope, I would consider a Weaver 1-3x20 classic variable. I've used one for years in competition and I still use one on a back-up rifle. It has true one power magnification, so you can shoot it with both eyes open just like an electronic scope and 3x on the upper end is plenty of magnification to get good hits out to 300-400 yards.
Best of all you can get them for about $160.
Look here...http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=183610
USSA-1
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Hey I was just watching this weeks episode of Sighting in w/Shooting USA on the DVR and in the product information portion they had a new reddot from BSA called the Stealth W/laser and light for under $160 looks cool ;D . Even less if you leave off the light and laser! :P
http://www.bsaoptics.com/scope.aspx?product=302
Though I still like a low power ACOG optic for myself! :)