The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: Pathfinder on July 10, 2009, 06:49:08 PM
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I've never seen this site before, but an interesting article.
http://freedomfighterradio.net/?p=8606 (http://freedomfighterradio.net/?p=8606)
The fear on the street is palpable. Ever since the election of Barack Obama as President of these United States in November 2008, coupled with the election of a democrat party majority in both the U.S. House and Senate, concern for the United States and personal safety has ignited like a fire in dry grass.
Sales of guns – black guns, rifles, shotguns and handguns (particularly 9mm) everywhere, have gone through the roof. AR15s have literally flown off of dealer shelves, and only now in the spring of 2009, have I seen the display samples of ARs begin to reappear on the wall of my favorite shooting emporium after the initial post election rush. Manufacturers of ARs are still working to catch up and some of the major suppliers are as much as 150,000 guns behind. Not only that, ammo is in the shortest supply I have ever seen in the 43 years of my shooting life. Have you recently tried to get 5.56mm, 9mm or even 380 ammo?
Supplies of 5.56mm and 9mm ammo are in short supply due to the black gun buying craze; .380ACP because of the rise in people getting concealed carry permits and the resurgence of interest in convenient 380 handguns like the fine Ruger LCP. In fact, in doing a review of the Ruger LCP, my gun store only had a small supply of ONE .380 round on hand, the Winchesters 95-grain SXT, which they had just gotten in. Unfortunately, I had to do a 30-round review of that pistol. There was none other to be found.
What is odd about this new fear is that it is not coming from the average citizen gun owner out there, but it is coming from what to me is an almost shocking source: street cops.
Street cops and SWAT cops that I know from various agencies – rural, suburban and metro – in my area are scared. Cops that before November 2008 never gave much thought (that I knew of anyway) to politics or more importantly to gun rights. For the most part, these are the guys that didn’t generally have any interest in shooting or gun ownership beyond keeping track of where their duty gun is, and a few of them didn’t even do that so well.
The guys I am talking about now are some of the same guys who used to not even carry off duty on a regular basis- but not anymore. They don’t scare easily, defenders of the Constitution of this State and the United States (as our oath of office reads), have been buying ARs, survival gear, and all the ammo they can lay their hands on. All of them (or I should say “us”) have been discussing and have been acquiring guns to provide a layered perimeter defense.
What are we suddenly so afraid of? Well in our discussions it seems to boil down to four areas.
First, fear of federal government intrusion into our lives. Every time I look at or listen to the news, there is something new and intrusive coming out of the Obama administration and this Congress. New tax schemes, government-run Canadian-style healthcare, a volunteer citizen defense force (whatever that is, what happened to the National Guard?) equipped with funding similar to our military, forced voluntary “service” after retirement, a lack of a southern border with hordes of illegal and criminal aliens pouring over our border, the swine flu scare as well as government forced closing of thousands of privately held Chrysler and GM dealerships, which will be the final nail in the coffin for these companies and the list goes on and on.
But these items in the news are just the tip of the iceberg. We can’t see the full impact of these actions yet, but we don’t know what was added into the thousand of pages of stimulus package bills in the dead of night yet. I predict however that when the plans contained in the stimulus packages go into effect, a lot of us are going to be surprised if not shocked by what has suddenly and sweepingly changed.
What also scares us is the second, well-founded fear that there is an assault weapons ban looming, one that would make the Clinton Ban appear like a look of disdain in comparison. I remember well the 1990s and the Clinton years: the rise of militia groups, the “black helicopter” rumors and paranoia, all of which was motivated by the Brady Law and the Assault Weapon’s ban. What if a new ban comes requiring registration or confiscation and turn-in of banned weapons as what happened in Australia?
…I foresee much civil disobedience coming down the road. Americans are citizens, and not subjects like the British, Canadians or Australians. They just don’t always obey the law blindly and not one officer or citizen that I spoke to said anything like “I hope I get to keep this gun for awhile before they are banned; They are fun to shoot, so I would hate to give it up.” It isn’t going to happen, so the cop on the street and the soldier on the base needs to think now what he will do if the orders come down. I think you all get what I am saying here.
Which leads me to the third fear, that there is a revolution coming, yes, a revolution on the scale of the original American Revolution. You can hear this topic discussed on many of the talk radio shows by even the big name hosts. The possibility of an armed revolution against the U.S. government being discussed, albeit very gingerly and fleetingly and as something to be avoided, which it is. I never heard this mentioned in the 90s. One of my quietest, low profile officer friends brought it up the other day.
He said that at some point in the near future, he felt there is going to be an armed revolt if things keep going the way they are. Something has got to give. I was shocked. Yes, I had heard this from some of my more radical cop friends in the past, but to hear it from a guy like this was unprecedented. Now, these guys are not saying this will happen to foment revolution, preach sedition or to even participate. They just want to be ready if it happens, to at least defend their families, because number four on the fear list is general societal chaos.
Cops fear for their parents, wives, children or grandchildren more now than ever before. Most cops are encouraging their spouses and loved ones to get concealed carry permits. Not only that, but some of these same cops are buying gun mounts for their personal cars so they can carry an AR in the family ride at the ready all the time. They are also strapping on heavier forms of off-duty hardware. I have other friends that are issued ARs or subguns for tactical team use, who always have their gear with them and are planning on just commandeering these weapons for personal use in defending hearth and home.
Final Notes
This is pretty heady and maybe even dangerous stuff. Know fully that I am not advocating anything here. I am reflecting to you what I see and hear going on around me, and maybe saying things that haven’t been said in the open, until now. It is something to think about.
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Written By; Scott Wagner is a Police Academy Commander and Professor at Columbus State Community College in Columbus Ohio, and Commander of the 727 Counter Terror Training Unit. A 29 year law enforcement veteran, and current Deputy Sheriff, he is the Precision Marksman for the Union County Sheriff’s Office SRT Team.
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from article:
He said that at some point in the near future, he felt there is going to be an armed revolt if things keep going the way they are. Something has got to give. I was shocked. Yes, I had heard this from some of my more radical cop friends in the past, but to hear it from a guy like this was unprecedented. Now, these guys are not saying this will happen to foment revolution, preach sedition or to even participate. They just want to be ready if it happens, to at least defend their families, because number four on the fear list is general societal chaos.
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What will it take for Politicians from both parties to "really" listen to their constituents?
The D.C. elite have perched themselves like Roman Senators above the fray of the commoners. While the Pelosi House rams and crams unread legislation that they themselves don't read. All the while BHO promised all legislation would be available for 5 days for public review....Uh,...NOT....and a lie.
For myself and my son, my country, like minded folks who are approaching the line in the sand, and grandchildren not born yet, I rely on True American History from those who were much wiser than the political "leaders" of today, that have forgotten, and I will never be a sheep led to slaughter by my own country.
Others have had those concerns.
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"Remember that Jefferson told us that the Second Amendment would not be needed until they tried to abolish it. There are people who have that in mind right now. The personal ownership and usage of firearms is not a common aspect of today's culture worldwide. It is up to Americans - those who know what it means to be an American - to uphold the light of liberty in the face of those both here and elsewhere who would extinguish it. We see the hysterics who feel that the abolition of firearms would bring about major changes in the human psyche, and that crime would disappear. We cannot reason with these people because they are impervious to reason, but we can expose them to ridicule and frustrate their political clout. That is a job not just for the National Rifle Association, but for everyone. If you want to make a resolution for the coming century, resolve to do something in defense of liberty every day, and by liberty, of course, we mean true liberty - the right to keep and bear arms. Without that liberty all other liberties are meaningless."
Col. Jeff Cooper
"If you will not fight for the right when you can easily win without bloodshed, if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not so costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no chance of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves."
Winston Churchill
"A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government."
George Washington
"When the Cambrian measures were forming, They promised perpetual peace.
They swore, if we gave Them our weapons, that the wars of the tribes would cease.
But when we disarmed They sold us and delivered us bound to our foe,
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: 'Stick to the Devil you know.' "
Rudyard Kipling, The Gods of the Copybook Headings, 1919
They rant better than I can...
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We face the exact same situation that ignited the first revolution. An increasingly disconnected elitist legislature coupled with a worsening economic situation that sees working class people people forced from their homes through job loss. Meanwhile the "ruling (We won) elite" ignore wide spread PEACEFUL protest in the form of the unreported but continuing Tea Party movement.
The logical, and historical, next step is violent protest (Riots) and assault and or murder of public officials, ( Sheriffs serving evictions, Tax assessors and collectors, Judges ) at which point the Govt. rather than becoming MORE attentive to the population, they will crack down further radicalizing the populace and further inciting violence.
NOW, during the lull before the storm Police and Military personnel need to give serious thought to just where they stand. Will they stand with the people or are they targets like the rest of the "tories".
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We face the exact same situation that ignited the first revolution. An increasingly disconnected elitist legislature coupled with a worsening economic situation that sees working class people people forced from their homes through job loss. Meanwhile the "ruling (We won) elite" ignore wide spread PEACEFUL protest in the form of the unreported but continuing Tea Party movement.
The logical, and historical, next step is violent protest (Riots) and assault and or murder of public officials, ( Sheriffs serving evictions, Tax assessors and collectors, Judges ) at which point the Govt. rather than becoming MORE attentive to the population, they will crack down further radicalizing the populace and further inciting violence.
NOW, during the lull before the storm Police and Military personnel need to give serious thought to just where they stand. Will they stand with the people or are they targets like the rest of the "tories".
IMNSHO, I think the failure of the media to even cover most of the protests will have a huge effect on things. When one feels there is no voice, there is nothing to lose . . .
How do we get The Oathkeepers in front of our police forces locally and get them to sign on? http://oathkeepers.org/oath/ (http://oathkeepers.org/oath/) I have seen stats (mostly opinions) where 50-70% of the LEOs will be citizens, the rest will sell us out and do their masters' biddings.
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............What will it take for Politicians from both parties to "really" listen to their constituents?...........
Rope.
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NO LEAD
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This is getting very real. In my 50 years, I never thought I would hear routine discussions of civil unrest and open revolution. Hell, even the Govenor of Texas spoke openly about Texas secession after an April 15th Anti-Tax Tea Party. Story below:
AUSTIN, Texas -- Texas Gov. Rick Perry fired up an anti-tax "tea party" Wednesday with his stance against the federal government and for states' rights as some in his U.S. flag-waving audience shouted, "Secede!"
An animated Perry told the crowd at Austin City Hall -- one of three tea parties he was attending across the state -- that officials in Washington have abandoned the country's founding principles of limited government. He said the federal government is strangling Americans with taxation, spending and debt.
Perry repeated his running theme that Texas' economy is in relatively good shape compared with other states and with the "federal budget mess." Many in the crowd held signs deriding President Barack Obama and the $786 billion federal economic stimulus package.
Perry called his supporters patriots. Later, answering news reporters' questions, Perry suggested Texans might at some point get so fed up they would want to secede from the union.
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I liked this article. But it is a shift in focus from most LE Professionals. Glad to see this was written by a deputy. Unlike being a city officer where your backup is close, if you are working county, your backup is miles away. So, in turn you need to utilize some people skills in conversation if you are not directly under fire. Officers need to be able to speak to citizens but keep the level of conversation open to where there is no miscommunication. Diffuse the situation verbally and try to figure out what is currently relevant to the complaintant. If there is a violation of the law, use discretion. I am sick and tired of laws removing the right of discretion due to liability. This is where laws need to be applied by officers, not by law for officers to lose their right of discretion.
If you are able to communicate on a level where the citizen is able to have a conversation and anything of value is ascertained, but able to move on, so be it. Make notes and take statements if a case is made verbally or written.
If you use skills that are verbal and nonverbal, this reduces the rate of incident if you establish control of the situation. A presence is visual, mass more and this shows presence, ask questions and be polite gets answers, if all hell breaks lose, than utilize all means necessary to establish control of the situation. But being able to talk to people, up to and including drunks and druggies if need be, utilize verbal skills that will remain calm unless upper levels of use of force are needed to control the situation.
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This is not new. I have been wearing my tin hat for nearly 15 years now.
Wish I could say I was better prepared but .... I let the allure of "normalcy" blind me.
Best advise, prepare for the worse, hope for the best, and stay under the radar!
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This is not new. I have been wearing my tin hat for nearly 15 years now.
Wish I could say I was better prepared but .... I let the allure of "normalcy" blind me.
Best advise, prepare for the worse, hope for the best, and stay under the radar!
And staying under the radar is getting ever more difficult...
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To hell with the radar ! Are you ASHAMED of your beliefs ? Are you ashamed of being an American and everything that is supposed to mean ? Do you value stuff and comfort above telling the truth ? Do you have BELIEFS, or just opinions ?
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Today M58, Mike, reminded me of some times that I lived through almost 20 years ago. It started with hurricaine Hugo hitting St. Thomas in the US Virgin Islands on Sept. 17th and 18th in 1989. Why am I posting info about that here?
The result was a complete breakdown of authority and calling the actions of many people "civil unrest" is the understatement of the century. It was total chaos. No communication with the outside world for over 3 weeks and even then there was precious little. Over 90% of the buildings on the island were damaged or destroyed by 190 mph winds.
There were food, water and shelter shortages that lasted for weeks and barely eased then, when the first real relief arrived. The authorities were unpreparred and in as much shambles as the rest of the island. There was wide scale looting for profit and thievery, as well as for survival. It took weeks to get emergency food and water and to start getting generators. We got US troops about that same time and they slowly began to restore some semblance of order. Electricity was not fully restored until the following year in 1990. People were out of work and dazed and disoriented. The immediate aftermath was like surviving a nuclear holocost. It was anarchy. I do not possess the time or the eloquence to truly convey the ugliness and horror of those times. I can only hope that your imagination will fill in the blanks.
When I read a thread about the coming civil unrest, it takes on an a special, very ominous tone for me. St. Thomas is only 15 miles long and 9 miles wide, at the widest point. When I remember the chaos on that little island and think of that kind of "civil unrest" on a national scale, man it is hard to imagine being able to prepare for anything that incomprehensible.
As much as I'd like to see the current socialist regime out of power, I shudder at what personal suffering could take place, on a nationwide scale, if the proverbial s%$t really does hit the fan. If things do go bad, I feel that I, like many members of this forum, am better prepared than the average American to face the challenges and to do my patriotic duty to ensure the restoration of our great nation. I also pray that it will never come to that.
Say your prayers ladies and gents and pray that we can begin to put the brakes on some of the current madness with the 2010 congressional elections. Just maybe that will get us through to the 2012 presidential election where we can peacefully change back to a democratic republic and sweep away the socialist reforms that are making our America unrecognizable.
Thanks to Mike for helping me remember how horrific anarchy and civil unrest can really be. May we escape the "Gathering Storm" and by the grace of God restore our nation to greatness on calm and peaceful seas.
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To hell with the radar ! Are you ASHAMED of your beliefs ? Are you ashamed of being an American and everything that is supposed to mean ? Do you value stuff and comfort above telling the truth ? Do you have BELIEFS, or just opinions ?
Maybe I shoulld be clearer... From my perspective, staying under the radar for me has absolutley nothing to do with my beliefs which I assure you are extremely strong. Staying under the radar to me has to do with the ever increasing desire for governement and some factions within corporate America to be more and more into what I consider to be my private, everyday activities. What I buy at the grocery store, where I cash my checks, what I watch on TV, what websites I visit on a regualr basis, and on and on and on and on....
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Kid, what difference does it make whether the "Civil unrest" is triggered by PO'ed citizens, or the results of the post turtles self destructive economic and foreign relations policies ? It is coming either way, at least if WE can maintain some sort of organization and unified objectives we stand a chance of coming out the other side with our country restored to us. Other wise we will end up as just another UN possession.
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Kid, what difference does it make whether the "Civil unrest" is triggered by PO'ed citizens, or the results of the post turtles self destructive economic and foreign relations policies ? It is coming either way, at least if WE can maintain some sort of organization and unified objectives we stand a chance of coming out the other side with our country restored to us. Other wise we will end up as just another UN possession.
I'm with you Tom.
If it does come, I'll be ready and I agree that we need organization with like minded folks to achieve unified objectives.
You know from my posts how I feel about the sham called the UN.
I was just reminded what it was like to go through real anarchy and it ain't pretty. Remembering that, my hopes are that we can avoid the chaos that would sweep our nation. If, as you say, it is coming either way, I'd be proud to stand shoulder to shoulder with you and all of our like minded brothers.
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Maybe I shoulld be clearer... From my perspective, staying under the radar for me has absolutley nothing to do with my beliefs which I assure you are extremely strong. Staying under the radar to me has to do with the ever increasing desire for governement and some factions within corporate America to be more and more into what I consider to be my private, everyday activities. What I buy at the grocery store, where I cash my checks, what I watch on TV, what websites I visit on a regualr basis, and on and on and on and on....
+1 TexGun
Big Brother has gotten bigger than ever.
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I'm with you Tom.
If it does come, I'll be ready and I agree that we need organization with like minded folks to achieve unified objectives.
You know from my posts how I feel about the sham called the UN.
I was just reminded what it was like to go through real anarchy and it ain't pretty. Remembering that, my hopes are that we can avoid the chaos that would sweep our nation. If, as you say, it is coming either way, I'd be proud to stand shoulder to shoulder with you and all of our like minded brothers.
Look on the bright side, this time you will have guns and ammo.
Note ** Never pay for storage food, guns, ammo, or other "stock pile" Items with credit cards. Credit card purchases leave a paper trail that just needs a key word entered into the data base to to call up all purchases of a given item.
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Look on the bright side, this time you will have guns and ammo.
Note ** Never pay for storage food, guns, ammo, or other "stock pile" Items with credit cards. Credit card purchases leave a paper trail that just needs a key word entered into the data base to to call up all purchases of a given item.
Bingo on the guns and ammo.
Guns are not allowed in the U.S. Virgin Islands. I did hear about one guy that moved there and shipped 2 containers of household goods from Tropical Shipping out of Miami. He somehow ended up on the island with a Ruger Security-Six and a couple hundred rounds of ammo. Just a rumor though.
Good advise on the credit cards. I'm too late on some accounts, but will think twice in the future.