The Down Range Forum

Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: MikeBjerum on July 21, 2009, 12:10:32 PM

Title: MSNBC Hunting Story
Post by: MikeBjerum on July 21, 2009, 12:10:32 PM
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31952727/ns/us_news-life/?GT1=43001 (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31952727/ns/us_news-life/?GT1=43001)

I have skimmed this and need to really read it.  However, I am getting ready to be gone for the rest of the day (if all goes well), and want to get it out there for discussion. 

Note the photo and caption: An article about minimum ages for hunting, a photo of an eight year old with a harvested elk (so far so good with story headline), and a caption that says she didn't take it ... but she could have.

I know I am going to get really pissed at this one by the time I get done  >:(
Title: Re: MSNBC Hunting Story
Post by: tombogan03884 on July 21, 2009, 12:33:46 PM
 He's right, It's going to piss him off.
But what would you expect from the socialist assholes at the "Ministry of Propaganda" that get a woody saying BO is "like God".
Title: Re: MSNBC Hunting Story
Post by: ericire12 on July 21, 2009, 12:50:26 PM
So let me get this straight........ The Left and their water carries are outraged at the idea of a national standard for CCW, but they think that it is a travesty that there is no national standard for a minimum age to hunt?

(http://www.smileyx.com/smilies/rolleye0018.gif)








MSNBC, here is your sign ---------------------------> (D)
Title: Re: MSNBC Hunting Story
Post by: Kid Shelleen on July 21, 2009, 01:11:40 PM
I am totally opposed to having the state or federal government set the age of 16 as the minimum age for a young person to hunt alone. This is another example of the nanny state becoming too involved in our personal lives. It should be up to the parent to determine when their child is old enough and responsible enough to hunt alone. I know several twelve year olds that are far more mature than many 18 year olds. The state cannot know the maturity level of an individual and assigning 16 as an arbitrary age when a young person is responsible enough to hunt alone is well........ arbitrary.

I began to hunt alone at the age of twelve. I had been taught about firearm safety, how to breakdown and clean my rifle and my shotgun and I had hunted enough with my Dad for him to believe in me. No one but my Dad could have known my level of maturity and responsibility.

Leave the responsibility of raising our kids up to us. The accidental shooting of Mrs. Almli was tragic and I feel terrible for her family and for their loss, however this could have happened to an adult just as easily as to a kid. We hear about tragic hunting accidents every year, but to the best of my recollection they have all involved adults. I would think that if kids hunting alone resulted in a lot of accidents, the antis would have been all over this subject long ago.
Title: Re: MSNBC Hunting Story
Post by: shooter32 on July 21, 2009, 01:24:37 PM
It's horrible a life was lost in this and I feel for her family and the young man that did the shooting.

Young people do not have the judgment that adults have. For the most part, 14-year-olds do not have the judgment that a 16-year-old has.”

I know 14 yr olds with more judgment than some adults!! But there does need to be an adult present with youth hunters IMHO. To hunt alone at 16 is reasonable but at any age there will always be someone with poor judgment.

A few years back at a game check after a elk hunt we talked with a game warden, that said he had just heard "3 guys from St.Louis shoot a donkey thinking it was a doe mulie". :o

Stupid is as Stupid does!!
Title: Re: MSNBC Hunting Story
Post by: Timothy on July 21, 2009, 01:44:45 PM
A few years back at a game check after a elk hunt we talked with a game warden, that said he had just heard "3 guys from St.Louis shoot a donkey thinking it was a doe mulie". :o

Stupid is as Stupid does!!

Probably the same gang that tried to milk a bull!
Title: Re: MSNBC Hunting Story
Post by: fightingquaker13 on July 21, 2009, 03:54:59 PM
You have always had to be 16 to hunt alone in Fl. But "alone" is, or used to be, when I was a kid, a pretty big word here in the Sunshine state. Having my Dad or granddad a few hundred yards away on another stand qualified as being accompanied on WMAs. Again, this was years ago and I have no clue how its being enforced now. Haz would be the guy to ask.
FQ13
Title: Re: MSNBC Hunting Story
Post by: Timothy on July 21, 2009, 04:25:11 PM
I don't know what the laws are in MI now but I was able to buy my own "Monkey Wards" 20 ga pump at 13 years old with my own money.  Threw it over my shoulder and walked the mile back to my house.  That would have been 1970 and I was able to hunt in the woods behind that same store without my Dad or older brothers present.

Today, at least in MA, a youth can hunt at any age as long as there is an adult (18) with a valid FID card and one gun between the two of them.

As others have stated, 18 years old does not make you more responsible, more safe or less likely to make a mistake.  Only the correct training and upbringing will make a difference.
Title: Re: MSNBC Hunting Story
Post by: Ping on July 21, 2009, 04:33:41 PM
I voted on this earlier today. I voted no age limit. I was out with a .22 rifle in the back yard at the age of 10. My father, a Viet Nam Vet,  instilled firearm safety rules to me at an early age. I also knew the consequences if I were to act in a unsafe manner.  ;)
Title: Re: MSNBC Hunting Story
Post by: WatchManUSA on July 21, 2009, 05:08:30 PM
It's horrible a life was lost in this and I feel for her family and the young man that did the shooting.

Young people do not have the judgment that adults have. For the most part, 14-year-olds do not have the judgment that a 16-year-old has.”

I know 14 yr olds with more judgment than some adults!! But there does need to be an adult present with youth hunters IMHO. To hunt alone at 16 is reasonable but at any age there will always be someone with poor judgment.

A few years back at a game check after a elk hunt we talked with a game warden, that said he had just heard "3 guys from St.Louis shoot a donkey thinking it was a doe mulie". :o

Stupid is as Stupid does!!

Indeed, It is horrible a life was lost.  The issue as I see it is one of judgment and training.  If an adult was hunting with a teen or the teen is hunting alone - there still would have a gun.  The kid still could have pulled the trigger regardless if an adult is along on the hunt.  Tragically, almost every deer hunting season here in Minnesota a hunter fires on someone and they are seriously injured or killed.  This is not reserved to kids – most of the time these are adults who make the mistake.

In Minnesota kids as young as 11-years old must complete a DNR approved firearm safety class consisting of a minimum of 12 hours of classroom and field experience in the safe handling of firearms and hunter responsibility. The field experience allows students to learn and demonstrate commonly accepted principles of safety in hunting and the handling of firearms. It includes live fire on a rifle range. Upon successful completion of this course, students receive a temporary certificate. This certificate will allow the bearer to purchase a hunting license in Minnesota and other states where certification is required.
Title: Re: MSNBC Hunting Story
Post by: tombogan03884 on July 21, 2009, 08:04:01 PM
   Young people do not have the judgment that adults have. For the most part, 14-year-olds do not have the judgment that a 16-year-old has.”

   I've known some 50 year olds that were pretty damn stupid, and in NH any way, of all the hunting accidents I have heard of over the years the only one I remember involving a Kid was when the former  Governors son shot him while they were bird hunting back in the 80's, treated and released no charges.
Title: Re: MSNBC Hunting Story
Post by: m25operator on July 21, 2009, 08:49:05 PM
This is of course tragic, possibly avoidable, well definitely avoidable, part of hunting instruction and firearms is know your target and what is behind, I have hunted in fog and it is different, but the 1st rule applies, if your not 100% sure, don't take the shot, as far as age, I think 5 might be a good idea, like Kid I started alone when I was 12, but supervised at 10. I got into trouble at 10, my 1st squirrel hunt, and a friend of my dad loaned me a browning .22 take down auto, with scope. How cool, well I was by myself, but adults were close,  and walking the woods when a squirrel ran down a barbwire fence and I opened up on him, missed him but I was on a hill shooting down, later my dads boss, asked " who was shooting from the top of the hill ? " well it was me, and I was shooting towards him and his son. NO one had taught me that lesson yet, never forgot it though. Lucky!!! I do think starting kids off on a single shot is a good idea, except for centerfires and shotguns, some are so light they will beat you to death, in a 7mm or 20guage and up. Not that single shot firearms are not heavy enough by the right manufacturer, just the H&R, and those like it, not a bad firearm, but light enough on a small frame, to make you want to quit. After shooting my H&R 20 guage single shot with no butt pad, I was scared to death to shoot dad's auto 5, in 12. Nothing could be further from the truth, after my dad shot my 20 he said , GD, no wonder you don't like it.

The truth at the end, regardless of sentence ( if any ) this boy will carry this weight for as long as he lives, I wonder if he will ever hunt again. Maybe even just shoot again.

Public land is a problem, when multiple users with different purposes are allowed at the same time, hikers and hunters, at the same time, especially if the hikers or campers don't know, that hunting is going on. I think on public land, during hunting season, hunters, hikers, and campers alike should wear the minumum 200 square inches of blaze orange, and the Blaze orange hat, like they do in CO. I hunted public land there in the San Juan National forest, a mountain, and was amazed at how big the country is, and how well the blaze orange stood out when the morning light was just coming in.
Title: Re: MSNBC Hunting Story
Post by: Timothy on July 21, 2009, 08:58:00 PM
Public land is a problem, when multiple users with different purposes are allowed at the same time, hikers and hunters, at the same time, especially if the hikers or campers don't know, that hunting is going on. I think on public land, during hunting season, hunters, hikers, and campers alike should wear the minumum 200 square inches of blaze orange, and the Blaze orange hat, like they do in CO. I hunted public land there in the San Juan National forest, a mountain, and was amazed at how big the country is, and how well the blaze orange stood out when the morning light was just coming in.

Last fall I was pheasant hunting with my daughter and SIL on some public land here in MA.  They generally release about 50 birds on the property.  Law requires that a minimum of a blaze orange hat be worn and we all had upland vests with more than enough to satisfy the requirement.

As we were finishing up, walking out after the hunt, a young couple wearing their J.Crew barn coats walking their labradors came up the road in front of us.  I stopped and told them that there were several hunters still in the field and to be careful.  I also let them know that Sundays are free from hunting and it would be a better day to walk their dogs.  Basically, I was told to mind my own business, STFU and don't let the gate hit me in the ass when I left the field.

they just became accidents waiting to happen.....
Title: Re: MSNBC Hunting Story
Post by: tombogan03884 on July 21, 2009, 09:03:26 PM
 In most cases it is NOT a "Hunting" problem, it is a problem with self important city assholes that move to the country and refuse to exercise "common sense safety practices" that the natives grew up with.
Title: Re: MSNBC Hunting Story
Post by: Kid Shelleen on July 21, 2009, 11:45:42 PM
This is of course tragic, possibly avoidable, well definitely avoidable, part of hunting instruction and firearms is know your target and what is behind, I have hunted in fog and it is different, but the 1st rule applies, if your not 100% sure, don't take the shot, as far as age, I think 5 might be a good idea, like Kid I started alone when I was 12, but supervised at 10. I got into trouble at 10, my 1st squirrel hunt, and a friend of my dad loaned me a browning .22 take down auto, with scope. How cool, well I was by myself, but adults were close,  and walking the woods when a squirrel ran down a barbwire fence and I opened up on him, missed him but I was on a hill shooting down, later my dads boss, asked " who was shooting from the top of the hill ? " well it was me, and I was shooting towards him and his son. NO one had taught me that lesson yet, never forgot it though. Lucky!!! I do think starting kids off on a single shot is a good idea, except for centerfires and shotguns, some are so light they will beat you to death, in a 7mm or 20guage and up. Not that single shot firearms are not heavy enough by the right manufacturer, just the H&R, and those like it, not a bad firearm, but light enough on a small frame, to make you want to quit. After shooting my H&R 20 guage single shot with no butt pad, I was scared to death to shoot dad's auto 5, in 12. Nothing could be further from the truth, after my dad shot my 20 he said , GD, no wonder you don't like it.

The truth at the end, regardless of sentence ( if any ) this boy will carry this weight for as long as he lives, I wonder if he will ever hunt again. Maybe even just shoot again.

Public land is a problem, when multiple users with different purposes are allowed at the same time, hikers and hunters, at the same time, especially if the hikers or campers don't know, that hunting is going on. I think on public land, during hunting season, hunters, hikers, and campers alike should wear the minumum 200 square inches of blaze orange, and the Blaze orange hat, like they do in CO. I hunted public land there in the San Juan National forest, a mountain, and was amazed at how big the country is, and how well the blaze orange stood out when the morning light was just coming in.
What a coincidence. Starting by 10 and alone by 12, I hunted with a Browning .22 takedown as well. I sold the original Belgian that I owned in the rare .22 short. Sold it as a dumb kid when I was in college. Luckily it was replaced with this 1958 Belgian wheelsight in .22lr.
Title: Re: MSNBC Hunting Story
Post by: ericire12 on July 22, 2009, 07:19:25 AM
In most cases it is NOT a "Hunting" problem, it is a problem with self important city assholes that move to the country and refuse to exercise "common sense safety practices" that the natives grew up with.

Thats a good point Tom. It might be best to put the city slickers through a "Hunter Awareness Course" and make them get a license before they can go into the woods.
Title: Re: MSNBC Hunting Story
Post by: MikeBjerum on July 22, 2009, 09:43:15 AM
OK ... I have renewed my anger and disgust with our elected officials and the "feel good" crowd  >:(

It is not about age ... It is about knowledge!

Since hunting is not a protected Right, I have no problem in treating hunting like driving - Take a test to prove you knowledge of rules, regulations and safety.

Most states already require a firearm safety and hunter education course to get a license, and I beleive that this is also a good thing.  It doesn't teach all, but it teaches the basics and makes the taker aware of other items.

Why is it the total fault of the hunter and the hunting community that a hiker was killed?  Just like a hunter needs to be aware of many things, we are all responsible for ourselves!  Why did this hiker go into a public hunting area not wearing Blaze (international) orange?  Ultimate responsibility falls on the person that pulled the trigger, but in Minnesota the charges and sentence could be challanged in apeal due to the hiker not following the rule as well.  I am hot on this topic, because we have just spent the last two weeks reveiwing with the kids in class the rule and the common sense involved with orange and carrying game out of the field.

Watch ... Rather than institute education these folk are going to implement a ton of worthless feel good laws that will let irresponsible adults do things while banning responsible people of all ages  >:(

Rant on hold while my veins relax and I prepare for tirad number 2!