The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: Ichiban on July 29, 2009, 11:21:14 AM
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Given the accuracy displayed in shootouts, I'm not sure this is such a good idea.
New Policy Allows Police To Shoot At Fleeing Cars
Previously, Shots Could Only Be Fired At Cars Used To Attack
The Chicago Police Department has instituted a major change in policy regarding the use of deadly force.
Effective next Monday, police officers will be able to fire their guns under circumstances where they previously could not.
The new policy, from police Supt. Jody Weis and confirmed by WBBM Newsradio 780 Wednesday morning, allows police officers to shoot at fleeing vehicles if the driver or passengers are suspected of committing a felony.
The old policy allowed officers only to shoot at vehicles that pose a threat to them or others, such as if the driver were trying to run down the officer.
But now, officers need not be under attack to open fire.
http://cbs2chicago.com/local/police.deadly.force.2.1105766.html (http://cbs2chicago.com/local/police.deadly.force.2.1105766.html)
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What fools, Those rules were set for a very good reason. It's expensive when they miss.
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Chicago cops, blast away.
Chicago citizens, sorry, no guns. >:(
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In Chicago they are so worried that a law abiding citizen who carries a legal gun will suddenly begin an open gun fight. Then they approve the police to open fire on a moving vehicle with only probable cause.
Quoting the article, “…allows police officers to shoot at fleeing vehicles if the driver or passengers are suspected of committing a felony.”
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Hey, it works in the movies every time! ::)
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Remember Amdou Diallo?(sic) He was the innocent guy gunned down when he offered NYPD his wallet. He was shot five times. That's bad enough. Problem was, the officers fired 41 times. Where did those bullets go? Unless the cops get magic bullets that vanish if they dont hit the bad guy, I think the Chicago PD is going to regret this sooner rather than later. It's not just the collateral damage either. It will tarnish the rep of every cop in the city when some idiot shoots a little old lady crossing the street.
FQ13
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Remember Amdou Diallo?(sic) He was the innocent guy gunned down when he offered NYPD his wallet. He was shot five times. That's bad enough. Problem was, the officers fired 41 times. Where did those bullets go? Unless the cops get magic bullets that vanish if they dont hit the bad guy, I think the Chicago PD is going to regret this sooner rather than later. It's not just the collateral damage either. It will tarnish the rep of every cop in the city when some idiot shoots a little old lady crossing the street.
FQ13
As I recall Mr. Diallo also got shot because he failed to stop moving when the officers told him to. The officers wrongly believed he was an armed felon.
Mr. Diallo's understanding of English was not up to the test and he reached behind and "drew" his wallet.
My wife asked me why they "shot at him" 41 times . I told her if they had more bullets they would have shot more. Gun fights spin out of control pretty quickly when you think your going to be killed.
As for Chicago, the ruling from the SCOTUS is clear. This shooting policy was the target of the US Supreme Court precedent (Tennessee v. Garner, 471 US 1, 1985) that protected fleeing suspects from indiscriminate shooting. Chigago will get their butts sued off the first time they wing some doper or car thief.
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s I recall Mr. Diallo also got shot because he failed to stop moving when the officers told him to. The officers wrongly believed he was an armed felon.
Mr. Diallo's understanding of English was not up to the test and he reached behind and "drew" his wallet.
My wife asked me why they "shot at him" 41 times . I told her if they had more bullets they would have shot more. Gun fights spin out of control pretty quickly when you think your going to be killed.
I saw a video some where of a reenactment of that, apparently the Cops muzzle flashes were reflecting off the door which reinforced the idea that he had drawn a weapon and opened fire. But ya, where did the other 36 rounds go ? Also, He was a stationary target in a tenement hall way, very close range, how many citizens will get mowed down when they start blasting at MOVING targets more than 10 yards away ?
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So let me get this straight. A BG breaks into my house, assaults me and mine, and I cannot shoot them in the back as they flee when I pull a gun on them? But the Chicago cops can?
What a country!
Not!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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So let me get this straight. A BG breaks into my house, assaults me and mine, and I cannot shoot them in the back as they flee when I pull a gun on them? But the Chicago cops can?
What a country!
Not!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You mis understand, in the scenario you describe, YOU would be the bad guy for having a usable hand gun in Chicago.
But the cops can now shoot someone in the back for driving the same model and color car as the suspects.
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Yea, this will last about as long until some innocent bystander or 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 or 6, well you get my point, gets a cops bullet in them.
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I wonder how many cops would actually take a shot a fleeing car. As demonized as the police are, and especially in a place like Chicago (race politics) How may cops in their right mind are gonna want to risk THAT trial? Hell the way things are going Al Sharpton would be the judge. Firs witness would be BHO to say he told the cop it was stupid to shoot at a bad guy.
Of course after the cop has been murdered in prison we would learn that BHO was apologizing to Germany for WWII during the incident... ::)
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The Chicago Police Department has very well trained officers. I think that it is unfair to criticize them for the poor choices made by Illinois Government. CPD is professional enough to avoid mistakes, though they can and will happen. To ridicule them is a complete waste of time. We all just have to pray and vote that when elections roll around again that the anti 2A politicians are voted out and some new blood with common sense will be voted in. Just my two bits.
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The Chicago Police Department has very well trained officers. I think that it is unfair to criticize them for the poor choices made by Illinois Government. CPD is professional enough to avoid mistakes, though they can and will happen. To ridicule them is a complete waste of time. We all just have to pray and vote that when elections roll around again that the anti 2A politicians are voted out and some new blood with common sense will be voted in. Just my two bits.
I'm sorry if my satire didn't come through. I mean no disrespect towards the officers that have to work under some the BS regs that Chicago thinks are good governance. My attempt was to look at a possible scenario that the socialist libs in this country would love to see.
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I saw a video some where of a reenactment of that, apparently the Cops muzzle flashes were reflecting off the door which reinforced the idea that he had drawn a weapon and opened fire. But ya, where did the other 36 rounds go ? Also, He was a stationary target in a tenement hall way, very close range, how many citizens will get mowed down when they start blasting at MOVING targets more than 10 yards away ?
Tom, I was going through Armed Guard training when the defense team asked my Instructor to help make that video and was asked if I would be willing to help recreate the shooting for them. I agreed after being given some of the information about the case that the media didn't report. Diallo understood english well enough to sell bootleg versions of movies on VHS tapes. He was also a dead ringer for a rapist that had attacked a number of young girls in that neighborhood. That is what got the officers attention.He didn't comply with the officers instructions and made a furtive move towards the officers.Also not reported was the fact that the Officers performed CPR on him until the EMTs got there trying to save his life. The NYPD has a poor training program for firearms, when ever there is a budget crunch the first thing they cut is training. Can't blame the street officers for that.
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So, NYC with quite possible the largest PD in the country and maybe the world, has people that are poorly trained in proper use of a firearm?
Go Bloomberg!
???
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Tom, I was going through Armed Guard training when the defense team asked my Instructor to help make that video and was asked if I would be willing to help recreate the shooting for them. I agreed after being given some of the information about the case that the media didn't report. Diallo understood english well enough to sell bootleg versions of movies on VHS tapes. He was also a dead ringer for a rapist that had attacked a number of young girls in that neighborhood. That is what got the officers attention.He didn't comply with the officers instructions and made a furtive move towards the officers.Also not reported was the fact that the Officers performed CPR on him until the EMTs got there trying to save his life. The NYPD has a poor training program for firearms, when ever there is a budget crunch the first thing they cut is training. Can't blame the street officers for that.
I'm not blaming the officers for shooting the guy as it seems there was no ill intent and I don't know enough to say whether it was negligent or not. I'm willing to file it under the stuff happens category. My problem is with the 36 off target rounds that could have killed God knows who. If you unloaded your Glock, say 16 rounds, don't you think the DA, even if he might justify the shoot, wouldn't hit you for negligence in NY? Cops get a break. Why? They are trained. By who? Even if the guy was the devil incarnate, it wouldn't help if your kid got shot when a round went through the dry wall. The cops are there to protect and serve, not be a menace because they can't hit the broad side of a barn. Blame the brass for poor training, I don'tcare. All I know is that if I lived in that building I'd be nine kinds of pissed, and it would have nothig to do with Mr. Diallo's guilt or innocence.
FQ13
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So you want to be a member of the CPD?
Read this blog: http://www.secondcitycop.blogspot.com/
I'd wonder if it was worth it. Two years and no contract, way too much iBS from Short Shanks and stuck in the middle of the culture of public corruption.
It almost make New Orleans look good.
Ok that's a bit tooo far.
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Tom, My point was that if the officers don't get the training these things will happen and when it does the first ones to get blamed will be the officers, not the city/administration that cut their training.I didn't mean to infer that you were blaming the officers.
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Remember Amdou Diallo?(sic) He was the innocent guy gunned down when he offered NYPD his wallet. He was shot five times. That's bad enough. Problem was, the officers fired 41 times. Where did those bullets go? Unless the cops get magic bullets that vanish if they dont hit the bad guy, I think the Chicago PD is going to regret this sooner rather than later. It's not just the collateral damage either. It will tarnish the rep of every cop in the city when some idiot shoots a little old lady crossing the street.
FQ13
Quick!! Somebody call Ripley's!!!!! FQ and I are in complete agreement on something!!! ;D
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Tom, My point was that if the officers don't get the training these things will happen and when it does the first ones to get blamed will be the officers, not the city/administration that cut their training.I didn't mean to infer that you were blaming the officers.
Oh I was just pointing out that if funding leaves training at levels were they can miss a stationary target at a range of feet, what will be the consequences of that penny pinching when they are firing at a moving target at distance's measured in yards.
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looks like we're on the same page Tom
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All valid observances, especially in " gun free societies " like Chicago, where the rulers, think that because the cops have guns and the sheople don't, they must have the upper hand and are all Gene Autry, or Roy Rogers, never miss. I too think this going to be a bad policy, but maybe the officers, will think that too, and just not use it. Maybe a confident few will, with full aforethought.
Not trying to PO any of our forum gendarmes, but local joke. Where is the safest place to be when a policeman is shooting??
6' in front of them.
I know, I know, but being a range officer for 20+ years, it is sadly true for a lot of them, they are just like us, the ones that excel are in the minority, and they are good because they thought they ought to be and kept at it. I still see here in Dallas, lots of officers with issue revolvers with stock grips, and an ancient patent leather thumb break holster, just as they were issued, qualify when they have to and never practice, although the qualification is harder than it used to be. Barely harder than our CCW qualification which I could absolutely pass weak handed. Hell I did it from the leather with a model 57 Smith, with full house ammo, that busted the web of my hand after round 30, out of 50, I hated bleeding on my blue gun, but cleaned it quick enough no harm, to the pistol anyway.
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Taken from secondcitycop blog
Thursday, July 30, 2009
Anatomy of a Public Castration
This was a hilarious bit of theater that took place all day Wednesday.
Scene I, Act I: Sneed's column:
Sneed hears Police Supt. Jody Weis has issued a new deadly force police policy, which is scheduled to go into effect this weekend.
• • To wit: Chicago cops will now be permitted to shoot at drivers or passengers in cases of felons fleeing in motor vehicles. (Weis' policy advisers recommended the change.)
• • The upshot: Proponents claim it helps protect cops.
• • The buckshot: Critics claim the new policy is "ridiculous" and the liability to the City of Chicago could be astronomical.
• • Translation: "Officers were allowed to use deadly force to prevent death or great bodily harm to themselves or another person, but it didn't allow them to use force to apprehend a fleeing forcible felon," said a police source. "If confronted by an oncoming vehicle, officers were simply told to get out of the way, unless they were put in great danger," added the police source.
Note the key words designed to generate outrage among the populace - "permitted to shoot at drivers or passengers in cases of felons fleeing in motor vehicles." Wow. Just wow. Shooting passengers? We don't know who fed Sneed this bit of crap or on who's orders, but well done! She ran with it and the entire day's events were completely predictable from that point forward. Sneed gives some play to the "policy advisers" who feed her the info and we're assuming this is the "policy group" made up of clout babies with a grand total of eight years experience.
Act 2, Scene 3: Around noon, Shortshanks had a starring role:
The mayor said the Chicago Police Department is working to improve its existing policies, but has not officially changed anything.
Mayor Richard M. Daley said reports that the CPD had changed its police policy on deadly force in incidents involving felony cases where suspects fled the scenes in vehicles were incorrect.
Earlier Wednesday, a CPD spokesman told ABC7 the policy was going into effect this coming weekend. However, Daley said that's not the case.
Why do we have a sneaking suspicion that the CPD spokesman who gave that interview might be headed back to a district in short order? Last time we checked, it was the Superintendent's signature that appeared on the bottom of most General Orders, Special Orders, Department Notices, or whatever. The Superintendent was the Administrator and set policy direction within the bounds of existing local and state laws. Daley pretty much removed that power by stepping in as boldly and publicly as he did. In essence, he grabbed J-Fed by the balls and gave him a bit of a shake.
And finally, the public castration of the Superintendent (Act 3, Scene 2):
Chicago aldermen -- not Police Supt. Jody Weis -- would decide whether police officers can fire their weapons at felony suspects fleeing in motor vehicles, under an ordinance introduced Wednesday amid conflicting statements about an impending policy change.
Chicago Sun-Times columnist Michael Sneed reported the new deadly force policy scheduled to take effect Aug. 3. It was confirmed to her by Police Department spokesman Roderick Drew, who did a subsequent radio interview discussing the new policy.
But, the change was apparently not cleared with the powers that be at City Hall, a no-no for any Chicago police superintendent.
And guess who introduced the ordinance that removed the Superintendent from being the figurehead power dictating policy? Recently indicted aldercreature Ike Carothers!
Priceless.
Ike who was giving J-Fed all sorts of flak during public hearings. Ike who was ignored by J-Fed, either because J-Fed knew of the coming indictment or because J-Fed figured Ike was just another blowhard to be ignored. Ike, even though he's under federal indictment and wore a wire for a year, gets to make the proposal that shows everyone exactly who runs the show here in Chicago and presents the mayor with J-Fed's testicles in a jar. What a show.
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any bets on how much it will cost the city after the time they miss and hit a 3rd party?
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any bets on how much it will cost the city after the time they miss and hit a 3rd party?
It may be a crack head that gets to make the first lawsuit
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hopefully, but I have a feeling it will be a kid.
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any bets on how much it will cost the city after the time they miss and hit a 3rd party?
Dickie Daley is very adept at spending other peoples' money, so it won't matter a tinker's damn. The bad press, well, that could be a problem - until Dickie finds a way to quash it.