The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: Kamakazee on July 29, 2009, 11:21:49 PM
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I talked to a guy at the local range last weekend he had been recently been employed at CCI.
He said they are stockpiling ammo in a warehouse to keep the prices up, that figurers. >:(
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Welcome to the forum Kamakazee!
Several questions come to mind about this guy's information:
1. What were the terms of his leaving CCI - is he a disgruntled employee or was it a good departure;
2. Was he in a level of employment that made him "in the know" of the business operations - was this stock piling to make short supply, was this normal cycle for shipping cycles, were they stockpiling to fill a large order (we have a manufacturer in our region that is filling a multi (multi, multi, multi) million round order with the government);
3. Does he have similar info from #2 from other companies - one company can not create a shortage by lower production or limiting shipment;
4. And I will finish my list with a basic logic question - I can understand a company making and selling all they can at a profitable level, I can see lowering production numbers when prices are well over the cost of production, but what do they have to gain by producing high levels (many industry experts have gone on record that ammo manufacturers are producing higher levels than ever) with high cost components and then putting it in storage? High retail pricing means nothing if they aren't going to liquidate, and unsold inventory in the warehouse costs them in terms of interest and other loss factors.
I'm not calling him a liar, but I won't relay this industry info until I understand some of these basic factors.
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I will talk to him in a month at the next match and will get the full story.I know ya got to take everything with a grain of salt.
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Welcome aboard K. Swing on by the Cafe and find the new member's thread, tell us about yourself. We're an odd bunch of folks here (some odder than others - I ain't naming names) but we're all about guns, so not as odd as we could be.
Enjoy!
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I don't know about any ammo shortages. I saw 3 boxes of .40 the other day at Walmart. ;D
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. And I will finish my list with a basic logic question - I can understand a company making and selling all they can at a profitable level, I can see lowering production numbers when prices are well over the cost of production, but what do they have to gain by producing high levels (many industry experts have gone on record that ammo manufacturers are producing higher levels than ever) with high cost components and then putting it in storage? High retail pricing means nothing if they aren't going to liquidate, and unsold inventory in the warehouse costs them in terms of interest and other loss factors.
You know I asked myself this question once before...but it is done in other industries. If DeBeers were to release every diamond they had stockpiled onto the market, a cracker would bring more money.
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Welcome to the forum Kamakazee.
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. And I will finish my list with a basic logic question - I can understand a company making and selling all they can at a profitable level, I can see lowering production numbers when prices are well over the cost of production, but what do they have to gain by producing high levels (many industry experts have gone on record that ammo manufacturers are producing higher levels than ever) with high cost components and then putting it in storage? High retail pricing means nothing if they aren't going to liquidate, and unsold inventory in the warehouse costs them in terms of interest and other loss factors.
You know I asked myself this question once before...but it is done in other industries. If DeBeers were to release every diamond they had stockpiled onto the market, a cracker would bring more money.
I don’t think you can compare CCI and the other ammunition manufactures to the diamond cartel.
De Beers was a diamond monopoly controlling mining, production, distribution and sales. Now-a-days De Beers is not a monopoly like it once was. The diamond business is more akin to a cartel. De Beers is one company in a larger diamond market but is still has 40% of the market. The other diamond companies like De Beers operate in a similar fashion.
On the other hand the ammo business is a highly competitive market place. I suspect that, during a shortage of supply, it would behoove a business to get product out the door and in stores to capture market share. In my area you still can’t walk into a store and see piles of ammo on the shelves. If you are lucky there might be one or two boxes on the shelf but in most cases the shelves still nearly bare.
Now a business may not ship everything out the door for many reasons. One might include a planned shut down for repair or line change. Another reason is to build up inventory to cover another anticipated surge in purchases. Another might be circumventing anticipated regulatory changes. The list is almost endless.
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Stopped by Dick's yesterday and they had about 10 boxes of WWB 380ACP and at least 2 UMC Value pack (250round) 380ACP... lots of 223 and 9mm. I didn't look for anything else. Went by again today... still there. No shortage here.
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De Beers is one company in a larger diamond market but is still has 40% of the market. The other diamond companies like De Beers operate in a similar fashion.
Plus now they manufacture artificial diamonds for industrial purposes (a company in Sarasota, FL I believe). I'm not sure why they don't sell to consumers, but I hear that the diamonds they make are truly flawless. I don't think the diamond cartels have anything to do with it, though. I'll have to ask.
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New gander mountain in the area has lots of ammo. All the shelves were full, except .380. Had lots of .223 and 9MM. Prices where kinda higher that normall for around here. I can't see a company paying higher prices for components and then holding the product.
Just my .02
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Stopped at Cabela's in Omaha area, and their shelves were full. Prices were comparable to what we've been paying.
Lots of .223 & 5.56, 7.62 Nato, handgun of all varieties and uses, and the rest of the rifle and shotgun stuff.
I haven't seen selections like this in a long time. Will be interesting to swing into some places up here and see what they have.
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Local Wally World in Fargo is still bare bones. They did have 6 boxes of WWB .45acp, but I didn't have any cash with me. Went back next day - gone.
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The Wally World here had some .32 but that was all! Been bare for MONTHS! I do not want to shoot anything I have, as it is not replaceable.
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There is an obvious ammo shortage.
Much of it is being caused by what I call the Obama factor.
But sure, you can find a box here and a box there, but usually, not. and when you do find some, it's priced high and it's usually not a good brand. It might be some Blazer, or Magtech? Not that those brands are bad, but one things is for sure, they aren't the cleanest burning.
But I am not seeing very much, if any, Winchester, Federal, Remington, Hornady ammunition in the personal defense rounds, anywhere. And if you do, IT IS NOT CHEAP. Again, you might find some Blazer, Magtech, UMC or PMC at your local Walmart, but your local dealers, who I prefer to support, have nothing. And again, if they do, it isn't cheap. In fact, even though I want to support them, I just can't afford the prices they want because they have to pay higher prices or, greed has taken them over, or a little of both.
As for this shortage, it is a combination of the Obama factor, fear of ammunition being taxed by Obama and the other anti-s in our government, and a main reason is two fold. One being the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and the other is China buying up and hoarding the raw materials ie. copper, lead, brass, zinc, etc. etc., etc..
I can't say I'm 100% right about any of this. But it is what I feel is causing much of this shortage.
Oh, and, let's not forget law enforcement. They're also buying up, when they can find it, a lot of it as well. In fact, as far as manufacturers go, military and aw enforcement get first dibs; And in that order.
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Plus now they manufacture artificial diamonds for industrial purposes (a company in Sarasota, FL I believe). I'm not sure why they don't sell to consumers, but I hear that the diamonds they make are truly flawless. I don't think the diamond cartels have anything to do with it, though. I'll have to ask.
The diamond cartels (talk about thread drift) are not stupid. They are buying from poor Africans, often in war zons. They don't pay much. It maks sense to buy all you can, stock pile, and dribble the supplies. Look at the oil companies. One very valid argument againt offershore drilling is that the companies have taken out drilling leases onshore and let them lie fallow. That way they don't have to go to the expense of driiling new fields, lower the price through increased supply and can rely on existing middle eastern fields, but also limit competition. One very good idea I heard on the drilling on federal lands debate was a ten year use it or lose it clause. Either you started production or the lease would be reauctioned. Oddly enough, the industry opposed it. I don't think its that way with ammo companies as production costs are much higher.
FQ13
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The diamond cartels (talk about thread drift) are not stupid. They are buying from poor Africans, often in war zons. They don't pay much. It maks sense to buy all you can, stock pile, and dribble the supplies. Look at the oil companies. One very valid argument againt offershore drilling is that the companies have taken out drilling leases onshore and let them lie fallow. That way they don't have to go to the expense of driiling new fields, lower the price through increased supply and can rely on existing middle eastern fields, but also limit competition. One very good idea I heard on the drilling on federal lands debate was a ten year use it or lose it clause. Either you started production or the lease would be reauctioned. Oddly enough, the industry opposed it. I don't think its that way with ammo companies as production costs are much higher.
FQ13
I'll go with the thread drift here to mention a couple things I've learned about diamonds. The only practical use for them is as an abrasive, the Idea of the diamond "engagement ring" was a marketing ploy dreamed up by Cecil Rhodes ( Rhodesia, Rhodes Scholarship, Founder of the De Beers Consortium,) De Beers rations diamonds to the market in order to keep the price up, If African and Siberian diamond mines sold at full production potential your wifes engagement ring would be worth nothing.
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Plus now they manufacture artificial diamonds for industrial purposes (a company in Sarasota, FL I believe). I'm not sure why they don't sell to consumers, but I hear that the diamonds they make are truly flawless. I don't think the diamond cartels have anything to do with it, though. I'll have to ask.
In keeping with thread drift, years ago I mistakenly asked a certain women to marry me. She wanted a rock, but didn't think I should pay the money for a real one. We went shopping and I bought her a "Shelby Diamond" engagement ring in a very unique and beautiful antique style setting. Things continued downhill after that. We split up and I told her to keep the ring. She insisted that I take it back. Finally on the forth offer I took it. That pissed her off more, but that is another story. I eventually found the right gal and took the old ring to several jewlers to see what I could get for it. I had to tell the first one several times that it was fake diamond and it wasn't untill he used some kind of intrument on it before he belived me. The second jewler belived me about the diamond, but had a hard time understanding why someone woud mount a fake diamond in such a quality mount. I ended up getting what I paid for it intially. Later my wife and I regretted not just having a real diamond mounted in the original unique setting.
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Here in the Orlando area, Bass Pro Shop and Gander Mountain have ZERO 9mm, occationally have 380 but not often. Some 44 some 45 some 40, but that comes and goes each week. Plenty of 22 LR. The more expensive .223 is always in stock, wolf and other cheaper brands are usually gone. Shelves are full of rifle and shot gun stuff but the handgun stuff is always low. Gander even put up a sign a few weeks or a month ago that limits handgun ammo to 2 boxes per customer.
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In keeping with thread drift, years ago I mistakenly asked a certain women to marry me. She wanted a rock, but didn't think I should pay the money for a real one. We went shopping and I bought her a "Shelby Diamond" engagement ring in a very unique and beautiful antique style setting. Things continued downhill after that. We split up and I told her to keep the ring. She insisted that I take it back. Finally on the forth offer I took it. That pissed her off more, but that is another story. I eventually found the right gal and took the old ring to several jewlers to see what I could get for it. I had to tell the first one several times that it was fake diamond and it wasn't untill he used some kind of intrument on it before he belived me. The second jewler belived me about the diamond, but had a hard time understanding why someone woud mount a fake diamond in such a quality mount. I ended up getting what I paid for it intially. Later my wife and I regretted not just having a real diamond mounted in the original unique setting.
And yet a "real" diamond, half the size and quality in a pedestrian setting is clearly better. Rhodes was a bastard on many levels. I hope whatever bit of hell he's in, he's not allowed in "the corner"! ;D
FQ13 who is probably single for a reason
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Drift continued...
I'm the luckiest guy on earth.....my bride/wife never wanted a diamond. I bought her one years ago and she ended up bringing it back....she wears her mothers little chip in a decent setting. I paid about 200 bucks for the setting for a chip you can barely see! She wants me to replace the chip with her birthstone which I will be doing very soon for our 25th!
Her idea of expensive jewelry is the kind you buy at the kiosk in the local mall.....she does have a bit of a pocketbook fetish though!... ;D
Topic Warning....
No ammo, anywhere around here! Quite a bit of .40 S&W but I find it just don't fit my .45....
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Went to Wally World in Moorhead, about 20 miles from here. They had 1 box of 250 rounds of UMC .40, plus 2 100-round boxes of Federal 5.56. I had enough cash for 1, got it. I think they had a box of .25ACP too, the rest were all shotgun shells.
One thing I did notice - they had their pistol and rifle ammo on the shelf in the open. The Fargo store has it behind the counter. Wonder why?
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And yet a "real" diamond, half the size and quality in a pedestrian setting is clearly better. Rhodes was a bastard on many levels. I hope whatever bit of hell he's in, he's not allowed in "the corner"! ;D
FQ13 who is probably single for a reason
I presume you refer to working and living conditions for the Black "Diggers", and the fact that he STOLE what became the country of Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe, That paragon of Black majority rule ) Not to mention being the driving force behind the "Jameson Raid ".
Ammo is plentiful around here, may not be top brands but the only things missing are .380 and .44 Spl. None to be had.
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I presume you refer to working and living conditions for the Black "Diggers", and the fact that he STOLE what became the country of Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe, That paragon of Black majority rule ) Not to mention being the driving force behind the "Jameson Raid ".
That and the fact that we men are expected to spend 25% of a years salary on a diamond thanks to him. One that could be had for less than the price of a good AR (now I know I'm going to hell ;D) were it not for his diamond cartel.
FQ13
FQ13
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For awhile I was getting lucky and finding some ammo at my local WW and 2 others I drive near frequently. Lately it has been bare, but I haven't been able to stop as frequently. The employees have told me it has been bare. They have never had any primium ammo or self defense rounds. They also told me that can't order any ammo, they only get what the warehouse ships and that has been the case since before the shortage. I have been to other Walmarts that had greater selections of ammo. Not all Wally Worlds are created equal.
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Wal-Marts here in S. Fl. are still out of handgun ammo, just 7mm, 243, and shotgun shells, Bass Pro is to the roof in shotgun shells, but hit or miss with handgun ammo.
One of the ranges I go to ALWAYS has everything, but limits non range ammo to two boxes per purchase.
Gun shows are consistent with selection, but ration amounts. Next show is 8/15-16.
Even 38 Specials are getting out of hand on price. I like to have some 125gr JHP's or the 158gr Federal HP's, as I can't find them for a "reasonable price", those days seem gone,...., I'll sit on my stash.
In my tried and true Rossi .357, loaded with a .38 JHP or even the +P's are a good SD round, for the bump in the night,...
Not as loud, and recoil is not as bad, especially without ear protection in a house with tile floors.... Sure it's loud, but not .357 Magnum loud.