The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: Hazcat on August 07, 2009, 07:43:56 AM
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TAMPA — Bitter divisions over reforming America's health care system exploded Thursday night in Tampa amid cat calls, jeering and shoving at a town hall meeting.
"Tyranny! Tyranny! Tyranny!" dozens of people shouted as U.S. Rep. Kathy Castor, D-Tampa, struggled to talk about health insurance reforms under consideration in Washington, D.C.
"There is more consensus than there is disagreement when you get right down to it,'' Castor offered, immediately drowned out by groans and boos.
She pressed on, mostly unheard among screams from the audience estimated by Tampa police to be about 1,500.
"Tell the truth! Tell the truth!" "Read the bill!" "Forty-million illegals! Forty million illegals!"
The spectacle at the Children's Board in Ybor City sounded more like a wrestling cage match than a panel discussion on national policy, and it was just the latest example of a health care meeting disrupted by livid protesters. Similar scenes are likely to be repeated across the country as lawmakers head to their home districts for the summer recess.
Thursday's forum/near riot was sponsored by state Rep. Betty Reed, D-Tampa, and the Service Employees International Union, who apparently had hoped to hold something of a pep rally for President Barack Obama's health care reform proposal.
Instead, hundreds of vocal critics turned out, many of them saying they had been spurred on through the Tampa 912 activist group promoted by conservative radio and television personality Glenn Beck. Others had received e-mails from the Hillsborough Republican Party that urged people to speak out against the plan and offered talking points.
An overflow crowd of critics was left waiting outside the building — and in some cases pounding on the meeting room doors — while health care reform activists complained that Democrats and union members were guided into the room for prime seats. Tampa police officers maintained control the entire night.
"They can't even run a meeting, and they want to run health care?'' scoffed Kevin Grant, a Tampa printing business owner, standing near someone wielding a "Shame on you America. You sold your soul to the Devil" sign.
The nationally televised images of protesters lashing out at politicians sympathetic to Obama's health care proposal certainly drive home the health care plans' keen opposition. Some Democrats, though, argue that engaged, disruptive protesters only serve to depict the GOP as unwilling to work on solutions.
"These groups are not concerned about Americans' access to quality heath care, but are extreme ideologues, only interested in 'breaking' the president and thwarting the change Americans voted for last November," said state Democratic chairwoman Karen Thurman.
Polls show mounting public concern about the nation's debt and deficit, and a CNN poll released this week found 50 percent of those surveyed support the president's plan and 45 percent oppose.
Castor said a strong debate is healthy but suggested that many of the protesters who have shown up at town hall meetings in recent weeks would have staunchly opposed the creation of Medicare and Social Security a few decades ago.
"The insurance industry and … Republican activists are manufacturing a lot of these phony protests,'' said Castor, who has been closely involved in the health care debate and said she won't support any bill lacking a government-run insurance option.
She left before the forum ended, which drew more boos. State Rep. Reed said she encouraged Castor to leave because nobody could hear her anyway.
Protesters said there was nothing phony about their strong showing, just a bubbling of grass roots anger.
"It's the backlash to the arrogance of our government that you're seeing here,'' said Brad Grabill of Temple Terrace.
http://www.tampabay.com/news/politics/article1025529.ece
LOTS of comments at link
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In Denver too.
Rally protests government plans for health care
By STEVEN K. PAULSON Associated Press Writer
Posted: 07/28/2009 05:01:11 AM MDT
Updated: 07/28/2009 02:24:13 PM MDT
Protesters gather outside the Capitol for a health care reform rally. (THE DENVER POST | RJ SANGOSTI)
Related
Health Care Reform
Aug 6:
Pelosi visits Denver clinic, says Dems united on health reformPelosi to talk health care at Denver clinicColorado lawmakers brace for health care fight that moves to their home districtsDENVER—Several hundred people, many of them carrying signs warning "Hands off my health care," rallied at the Colorado state Capitol on Tuesday to protest what they call government-run health care.
Jeff Crank, state director for Americans for Prosperity, a public policy group backing free enterprise, told supporters the current health care system has problems, including lack of coverage, but he said a program run by the government would only make those problems worse.
"We're building an army," Crank told the cheering crowd on the Capitol steps.
Crank said people who have insurance should be allowed to keep it when they move to other jobs, health policies should cover pre-existing conditions and the number of lawsuits should be reduced.
Jon Caldara, president of the Independence Institute, a conservative think tank, said two of his children needed emergency surgery and he questioned whether proposed changes to health care now before Congress would have provided the same care.
"This is not about good fiscal policy or bad fiscal policy, this is about my children," he said.
Dale Auer, who retired from the military and lives in Colorado Springs, said he got the treatment he needed when he was diagnosed with cancer two years ago. Auer said he was given an experimental treatment under his insurance policy, a treatment that he believes would have been barred under programs now being considered by Congress.
"The procedure I had was leading edge and risky," he said.
Michael Huttner, spokesman for ProgressNow Colorado supporting Democratic Party agendas, said Tuesday's protest was part of a national effort to discredit the Obama administration.
"These out-of-state interests are misrepresenting both themselves and the citizens of Colorado who desperately need health care reform," Huttner said.
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In Denver too.
Rally protests government plans for health care
By STEVEN K. PAULSON Associated Press Writer
Posted: 07/28/2009 05:01:11 AM MDT
Updated: 07/28/2009 02:24:13 PM MDT
Protesters gather outside the Capitol for a health care reform rally. (THE DENVER POST | RJ SANGOSTI)
Related
Health Care Reform
Aug 6:
Pelosi visits Denver clinic, says Dems united on health reformPelosi to talk health care at Denver clinicColorado lawmakers brace for health care fight that moves to their home districtsDENVER—Several hundred people, many of them carrying signs warning "Hands off my health care," rallied at the Colorado state Capitol on Tuesday to protest what they call government-run health care.
Jeff Crank, state director for Americans for Prosperity, a public policy group backing free enterprise, told supporters the current health care system has problems, including lack of coverage, but he said a program run by the government would only make those problems worse.
"We're building an army," Crank told the cheering crowd on the Capitol steps.
Crank said people who have insurance should be allowed to keep it when they move to other jobs, health policies should cover pre-existing conditions and the number of lawsuits should be reduced.
Jon Caldara, president of the Independence Institute, a conservative think tank, said two of his children needed emergency surgery and he questioned whether proposed changes to health care now before Congress would have provided the same care.
"This is not about good fiscal policy or bad fiscal policy, this is about my children," he said.
Dale Auer, who retired from the military and lives in Colorado Springs, said he got the treatment he needed when he was diagnosed with cancer two years ago. Auer said he was given an experimental treatment under his insurance policy, a treatment that he believes would have been barred under programs now being considered by Congress.
"The procedure I had was leading edge and risky," he said.
Michael Huttner, spokesman for ProgressNow Colorado supporting Democratic Party agendas, said Tuesday's protest was part of a national effort to discredit the Obama administration.
"These out-of-state interests are misrepresenting both themselves and the citizens of Colorado who desperately need health care reform," Huttner said.
Self serving interst of the socialist party.
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It's only a "Grass roots movement" when the Socialists bus in wino's. When the locals show up it's "out of state astroturf nazi's"
Another example of the "PC" double standard of these 2 faced bastards.
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It's only a "Grass roots movement" when the Socialists bus in wino's. When the locals show up it's "out of state astroturf nazi's"
Another example of the "PC" double standard of these 2 faced bastards.
I have a question for you. With these two-faced bastards, how do you know which ear to place the knot under? ;D
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I have a question for you. With these two-faced bastards, how do you know which ear to place the knot under? ;D
Just pick one. Either way works.
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http://volokh.com/archives/archive_2009_08_02-2009_08_08.shtml#1249670451
Instead of yellin' and shoutin', how about pressing your
Representative for the following commitment: you will not vote for any
final health care bill until its been published on-line and available
to the public for debate (and for you to read!) for at least one
month. I'd love to see a Congressman try to explain to his
constituents why having time for public debate is a bad idea.
As far as the rope goes you only put the knot under their ear if you want their necks to snap. I say center the knot and lift them up slowly.
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"These groups are not concerned about Americans' access to quality heath care, but are extreme ideologues, only interested in 'breaking' the president and thwarting the change Americans voted for last November," said state Democratic chairwoman Karen Thurman.
"Tell the truth! Tell the truth!" "Read the bill!" "Forty-million illegals! Forty million illegals!"
Protesters said there was nothing phony about their strong showing, just a bubbling of grass roots anger.
"It's the backlash to the arrogance of our government that you're seeing here,'' said Brad Grabill of Temple Terrace.
These idiots, like Karen Thurman, just don't get it.
We can clearly read the words and the beliefs of the protesters. The politicians NEED to listen!!!
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I have a question for you. With these two-faced bastards, how do you know which ear to place the knot under? ;D
If you want to snap their necks, right ear, always. Strangulation? Which ear doesn't matter. All depends on your intent.
The things I learn on the History Channel!! ;D
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Intent ? Remember the end of "Braveheart" ? Hung, drawn and quartered.
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Where you in the thick of it Haz?
Here's what MoveOn dot org had to say about Tampa.
All across the country, right-wing extremists are disrupting congressional
town-hall meetings with venomous attacks on President Obama's plans for
health care and clean energy.
* Last night in Tampa, Florida, a town hall meeting erupted into
violence, with the police being called to break up fist fights and
shoving matches
Of course the irony in this is that Pelosi says we're not true grass roots, but just astro-turf, SO (get this) MoveOn is going to hire professional organizers. Talk about astro-weeds.
We've hired skilled grassroots organizers who are working with thousands of
local volunteers to show Congress that ordinary Americans continue to
support President Obama's agenda for change.
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Chicago Thug Tactics,
Next one I go to, if I feel threatened by some union thug, professional hired Move on crony, I will defend myself.. Since were not at Def-Con 1 yet, I'll just taze the bastards...
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http://volokh.com/archives/archive_2009_08_02-2009_08_08.shtml#1249677415
Democratic legislators are complaining vigorously about the push-back
they are receiving on health reform during town hall meetings. House
Majority Leader Pelosi [1]stated that reform opponents were âcarrying
swastikas and symbols like that to a town meeting on healthcareâ and
dismissed them as âAstroturfâ rather than a grassroots movement. An
[2]editorial cartoon in the Washington Post similarly suggests that
the protests are being orchestrated.
Senator Reid [3]views protesters as a âfringe that is trying to mess
up our meetings.â The White House Deputy Chief of Staff[4] has advised
legislators if âIf you get hit, we will punch back twice as hard.â The
Administration is[5] asking individuals who hear things that are
âfishyâ to submit them by email
. [6]Paul Krugman concedes that anti-privatization activistsâ who
opposed social security reforms during the Bush Administration were
âsometimes raucous and rude, [but] I canât find any examples of
congressmen shouted down, congressmen hanged in effigy, congressmen
surrounded and followed by taunting crowds." Krugman concludes this is
âsomething new and uglyâ â and reforms opponents must be motivated at
least in part by racism.
Krugmanâs claim that protests of this sort are unprecedented is wrong.
A virtually identical scenario played out in 1989. By an overwhelming
margin, Congress had enacted the Medicare Catastrophic Coverage Act in
1988. The Act provided more extensive hospitalization benefits and
prescription drug coverage, but it imposed the costs of that benefit
on the elderly.
Congress was soon flooded with angry letters and there were numerous
confrontations with angry constituents when individual congressmen
returned to their districts. As Andrea Mitchell observed on ABC News,
âthe elderly are not against the new benefits â unlimited hospital
care, new at-home benefits, prescription drug coverage; they just
donât want to pay for them.â
The turning point came on August 17, 1989, when Dan Rostenkowski,
House Ways and Means Chairman and one of the most powerful men in
Congress, found himself fleeing a crowd of irate senior citizens
protesting the Catastrophic Coverage Act.
Representative Rostenkowski had scheduled a meeting in his home
district to hear constituent concerns and speak about the advantages
of the Medicare catastrophic coverage act. A crowd of angry senior
citizens waved signs protesting the fact they would have to pay more
taxes to fund the covered benefit. People shouted âcoward,â ârecall,â
and âimpeachâ after Representative Rostenkowski refused to speak with
them and got in his car. One senior citizen (Leona Kozien) even jumped
on the hood of Congressman Rostenkowskiâs car to stop him from
leaving.
The picture below was taken moments before Ms. Kozien jumped on the
hood â she is the women in the rose-colored heart shaped glasses. (The
picture appeared in Newsweek and the Chicago Sun Times, and was taken
by Tom Cruze)
Representative Rostenkowski got out of the car and ran a block, chased
by the crowd. He was then picked up by his car and whisked away. The
incident resulted in front page coverage nationwide. The TV news ran
footage of Rostenkowski fleeing from his constituents. Rostenkowski
[7]reportedly asked his press secretary whether the issue would go
away in a few days, and was told âLet me put it this way Congressman.
When you die, they will play this clip on television.â Three months
later, the Medicare Catastrophic Coverage Act was repealed.
As with today, the media had little sympathy for the protesters. The
New York Times editorialized that âthereâs little reason to sympathize
with the aggrieved affluent elderly,â whose complaints were
âshort-sighted and narrow-minded.â In the New Republic, one
commentator condemned the âselfishnessâ of the âaffluent elderly,â and
asked âso long as we continue to provide enormous subsidies to the
affluent elderly, why shouldnât they help pay for the poor of their
generation?â (You can read more, and find the sources for the enclosed
in chapter four of [8]my book on Medicare.
It is understandable that the Administration and Congressional
Democrats are unhappy with push-back to their plans. But, August is
proving to be rich in ironies. The Administration of a former teacher
of constitutional law is unhappy that individuals are exercising their
Constitutional right to petition the government for redress of
grievances. The Administration of a former community organizer is
complaining about community organizing. Congressional Democrats have
long relied on community organizing (and union members), and are
suddenly appalled at organized communities.
And, perhaps the richest irony of all -- the organizer of the protest
against Rostenkowski was Jan Schakowsky â then Director of the
Illinois State Council of Senior Citizens â and currently Democratic
representative from the Ninth Congressional District of Illinois, and
chief deputy whip to Majority Leader Pelosi. You can read Schakowsky's
account of the incident, her role, and her views on the importance of
citizen involvement in government [9]here â at a lecture she gave at
Northwesternâs Institute for Policy Research in 2002, entitled âWhy
Citizen Activism Matters: The View From Washington.â
References
Visible links
1. http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2009/08/05/pelosi_town_hall_protesters_are_carrying_swastikas.html
2. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/opinions/tomtoles/
3. http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0809/25891.html
4. http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0809/25891.html
5. http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/Facts-Are-Stubborn-Things
6. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/07/opinion/07krugman.html?ref=opinion
7. http://www.northwestern.edu/ipr/publications/schakowsky.pdf
8. http://www.amazon.com/Medicare-Meets-Mephistopheles-David-Hyman/dp/1930865902
9. http://www.northwestern.edu/ipr/publications/schakowsky.pdf
Hidden links:
10. file://localhost/files/davidh-Kozien_Rostenkowski.png