The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: Pathfinder on August 08, 2009, 07:26:16 PM
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http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/08/08/informants-accuse-blackwater-founder-murder-crimes/ (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/08/08/informants-accuse-blackwater-founder-murder-crimes/)
FTA: "Two men who claim to have worked for the security firm formerly known as Blackwater accused the company's founder and his employees of murder and other extraordinary criminal activities, according to anonymous affidavits filed in federal court this week.
The Nation magazine first reported Tuesday on the affidavits, which are part of a civil lawsuit filed on behalf of several Iraqis against the firm's founder, Erik Prince, and his employees for its alleged abuses in the country.
Taken together, the affidavits charge Blackwater founder Erik Prince with promoting "a culture of lawlessness" that included routine murderous violence against Iraqis, a wife-swapping sex ring, use of child prostitutes and weapons smuggling in bags of dog food.
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The firm, which changed its name to "Xe" earlier this year as part of a re-branding effort, issued a statement saying it would file a brief Aug. 17 in response "to the anonymous unsubstantiated and offensive assertions" made by informants."
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I am interested in how this turns out, Xe what a strange name.
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I too am very interested to see how this turns out. My bet is that our forum member Combat Diver is now an Xe employee. Blackwater was, at one time, rumored to have as many operatives in Iraq as the U.S. had military personnel.
They have been described as "Americas Private Army" and they play an important role in our overall success in many theaters of operation. I have great respect for the organization and for their employees.
One of my good friends is a former combat Marine who served in Iraq. His service was exemplary and he was Honorably Discharged. He applied to Blackwater after just over two years as a civilian. He wanted to return to Iraq. He was turned down in favor of younger candidates with Special Forces experience. He was offered a job, but not in Iraq or Afganistan.
It appears that their standards are high and that the competition for their jobs is pretty tough.
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Any undermining of "pros" hired to do a job in a combat theater of operations will be targeted by this current admin. and their minions.
Just like Cheney and Halliburton, they soon forget that Clinton OK's them as well, as well as previous POTUS's going back to Jimmy Carter.
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Any undermining of "pros" hired to do a job in a combat theater of operations will be targeted by this current admin. and their minions.
Just like Cheney and Halliburton, they soon forget that Clinton OK's them as well, as well as previous POTUS's going back to Jimmy Carter.
It was a mistake for all of them. Mercenaries are not to be trusted. Prince hides behind the flag waving kind of patriotism and the Bible thumping kind of religion, both are good for show, but at the end of the day, the business is about killing peple for money. There is a reason the Founding Fathers listed the hiring of mercenaries as one on their bill of particulars. in the Declaration "He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation, and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & Perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation."
The power of the sword should never be "outsoursed".It is a sacred trust we give the government, not to some corporation. As far as I am concerned anyone who has the power of arrest r the right to kill or detain needs to be a sworn agent or a soldier answerable to the UCMJ. Anything less is unaceptable. If this costs more, pay more or don't do it in the first place. America has no need for mercenaries.
FQ13
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FQ, unlike others here, there is very little you and I agree on.
Like Kid, I have tremendous respect for these folks, they do provide a valuable service for us in doing work the military or others cannot due to funding, staffing, or whatever. Remember these contractors were in a war zone, so yes, the business included the possibility of killing people. Also remember some paid the ultimate price in horrific ways as in Fallujah. Also remember that the State Dept. also hired a lot of these contractors.
Mercenaries in the Revolutionary War did operate under a different set of rules, as did the regular troops, who were also not always well controlled. The very reason for the 3A, as those being quartered often took whatever they liked. Another case of very selective "memory" on your part.
As for your snarky, ad hominum attack on Prince, a man you do not know other than what the MSM has told you, well, I will leave it at that.
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As for your snarky, ad hominum attack on Prince, a man you do not know other than what the MSM has told you, well, I will leave it at that.
Nothing ad hominum about it. Its the way he presents himself publically. As Mark Twain said "Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel". Given how many sleazeballs we've seen come to Jesus when they get caught I would add religion. I'm not impugning everyone who works for the company formerly known as Blackwater. I'm merely saying that we, the taxpayer, shouldn't be hiring them to begin with. Couple that with the blanket immunity they were given from prosecution or suit, under civil, military and Iraqi law and this should be a no brainer. Yes they are in Iraq today. What's to keep them from being in the states next week, maybe policing after a Katrina? For someone with as much distrust of the government as you, this should be a no brainer. I think you are letting ideology get in the way of logic.
FQ13
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I came back to this thread to add one other point - it is likely these 2 anonymous accusers are former employees with an axe to grind against Blackwater or Prince. The allegations hint at that, given how diverse they are - wife swapping and a culture of lawlessness as management tactics do not build a company like Blackwater, they will tear it apart quickly.
I've also been in contact with an acknowledged former Blackwater employee who can attest to the fact that much of what has been said and written about Blackwater, such as the book by Jeremy Scahill, is false, as he was at the very incidents that Scahill wrote about. He too is waiting to see what the specific allegations are and who the accusers are.
FQ, your follow-up comment shows you are in fact projecting when you say "Given how many sleazeballs we've seen come to Jesus when they get caught I would add religion." You do not know the man, you are guessing.
Also, once again, you provide only a fragmented, incomplete picture of things - do you do this in class as well? I think it is then called "indoctrination".
Twain was right, but your use of his comment misses the point that patriotism is also the first refuge for many people, including a number of us on this site, who evince a strong, passionate belief in this country, its strengths and capabilities, and its foundational documents - the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. Perhaps the man is truly patriotic as well as being an entrepreneur.
As for the use of civilian contractors, yeah, I am troubled by that. But I go back to the fact the US military is stretched thin, and many of the contractors did not work for the military, performing jobs that would have taken military troops away from their primary duties of combat actions to conduct security actions. On a limited basis (Iraq) and given the circumstances in that country, I don't have a huge problem with it. That acceptance may change if the gummint starts using "civilian contractors" to augment ACORN and the union thugs at town hall meetings, real issues today rather than the "what if" scenario you posed.
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Nothing ad hominum about it. Its the way he presents himself publically. As Mark Twain said "Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel". Given how many sleazeballs we've seen come to Jesus when they get caught I would add religion. I'm not impugning everyone who works for the company formerly known as Blackwater. I'm merely saying that we, the taxpayer, shouldn't be hiring them to begin with. Couple that with the blanket immunity they were given from prosecution or suit, under civil, military and Iraqi law and this should be a no brainer. Yes they are in Iraq today. What's to keep them from being in the states next week, maybe policing after a Katrina? For someone with as much distrust of the government as you, this should be a no brainer. I think you are letting ideology get in the way of logic.
FQ13
You are the one letting ideology get in the way of logic, (history actually) . The use of Mercenary troops was normal until around the end of the Napoleonic wars which, in the revolutionary armies of France, saw the birth of the large scale "Citizen Army". Most places Mercenary forces were the only TRAINED troops available. While it is true that in medieval France they often recruited bandits, it is worth noting that many of those bandits were soldiers thrown out of work by the end of the Crusades. Many mercenary units have a lasting place in history, such as Sir John Hawkwood's White Company, The Kings German Legion which served Wellington at Waterloo, and of course we must not forget the oldest mercenary company in the world, the Vatican's Swiss Guard. As to the accusations leveled against King George for using Mercenaries in America , it was poor rhetoric, just like the anti slavery accusations that he was " waging war on an innocent people". After all, Lafayette did not serve for free. In more recent times how about the British troops who served the Sultan of Oman and the other Emirites in the 60's, the Nung tribesmen we hired in Vietnam ? Or the Afghan tribes we are bribing to support us, they to are mercenaries. I won't go into the use of mercenary troops by the Roman, Greek and Persian Empires.
As to Mr. Princes sincerity since I do not know the man I will only point out that sincerity and altruistic motives do not put food on the table, and the left that you so often support have been attacking them as regularly and consistantly as they have our regular forces.
People like you have been refusing to face the hard facts of life ever since Jefferson and Madison fought the founding of the US Navy, and always for self serving reasons, in their case it had nothing to do with the practicalities (Jefferson actually favored it ) They opposed the building of a navy simply to score political points off Adams and Hamilton, NOT because they were considering what was best for the country.
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I am still on the fence about private contractors. I respect them for doing what they do, but at the same time, they are not covered under geneva convention, US law, Iraqi law, or any laws aside from their employee handbook. I dont know...my question is, where do their loyalties lie? If the highest bidder were Bin Laden, which side would they be fighting on then?
Just a recommendation... Read the book Outsourced by RJ Hillhouse. It even gets into how the Pentagon and CIA are spending more time watching eachother than the bad guys...
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You are the one letting ideology get in the way of logic, (history actually) . The use of Mercenary troops was normal until around the end of the Napoleonic wars which, in the revolutionary armies of France, saw the birth of the large scale "Citizen Army". Most places Mercenary forces were the only TRAINED troops available. While it is true that in medieval France they often recruited bandits, it is worth noting that many of those bandits were soldiers thrown out of work by the end of the Crusades. Many mercenary units have a lasting place in history, such as Sir John Hawkwood's White Company, The Kings German Legion which served Wellington at Waterloo, and of course we must not forget the oldest mercenary company in the world, the Vatican's Swiss Guard. As to the accusations leveled against King George for using Mercenaries in America , it was poor rhetoric, just like the anti slavery accusations that he was " waging war on an innocent people". After all, Lafayette did not serve for free. In more recent times how about the British troops who served the Sultan of Oman and the other Emirites in the 60's, the Nung tribesmen we hired in Vietnam ? Or the Afghan tribes we are bribing to support us, they to are mercenaries. I won't go into the use of mercenary troops by the Roman, Greek and Persian Empires.
As to Mr. Princes sincerity since I do not know the man I will only point out that sincerity and altruistic motives do not put food on the table, and the left that you so often support have been attacking them as regularly and consistantly as they have our regular forces.
People like you have been refusing to face the hard facts of life ever since Jefferson and Madison fought the founding of the US Navy, and always for self serving reasons, in their case it had nothing to do with the practicalities (Jefferson actually favored it ) They opposed the building of a navy simply to score political points off Adams and Hamilton, NOT because they were considering what was best for the country.
Your history is correct. It does however miss the point. I simply do not believe we should privatize the power of the sword. I oppose for profit prisons for the same reason. The bottom line is that we the people should be able to hold elected officials directly accountable for the actions of those with uniforms and guns. Thy should not have the out of saying "the contractor is to blame". Likewise, anyone who has a uniform and gun should be accountable to either the UCMJ or civil law, not given blanket immunity as Blackwater was. A US Marine was held to a higher standard in Iraq than Blackwater operatives. Thats just wrong. I have no problem with them working in the private sector as security, but they shouldn't be given the color of authority by the state. I'm not sure how this position is political in the partisan sense. Its simply a matter of principle and it wouldn't change if Prince were all he claims to be. I don't want him or anyone else like him on the payroll.
FQ13
FQ13
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I am still on the fence about private contractors. I respect them for doing what they do, but at the same time, they are not covered under geneva convention, US law, Iraqi law, or any laws aside from their employee handbook. I dont know...my question is, where do their loyalties lie? If the highest bidder were Bin Laden, which side would they be fighting on then?
Just a recommendation... Read the book Outsourced by RJ Hillhouse. It even gets into how the Pentagon and CIA are spending more time watching eachother than the bad guys...
That's ALWAYS been the case, during the Cold War the CIA and FBI spent more time spying on each other than they did watching the KGB. (But then the KGB was busy keeping an eye on the GRU so it worked out ;D )
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I understand the need but I am not a big fan of the way the "contractors" are being used. I object to the sheer numbers involved, to the missions they are given, to the lack of oversight and accountability (a big objection as they too represent the country), and to the pay (granted I have no idea what their medical or other benefits are) in relationship to what the GIs are getting. Still, it is not a job I would want and I believe that a large number of those doing the job are honorable and doing it for the right reasons.
And the fact that "it's been done this way since the dawn of time" does not mean that it is the right thing to do.
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"And the fact that "it's been done this way since the dawn of time" does not mean that it is the right thing to do."
The "right thing to do" is the thing that works, if this method did not work it would have been dropped 1000 years ago.
While I agree with FQ that everyone carry a gun under contract to the DOD should be accountable under the UCMJ his most telling comment is his last line, " Its simply a matter of principle and it wouldn't change if Prince were all he claims to be. I don't want him or anyone else like him on the payroll.". It doesn't matter to FQ if this is effective, efficient, or a benefit to the operation, it offends his sensibilities so it's bad. What BS.
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"And the fact that "it's been done this way since the dawn of time" does not mean that it is the right thing to do."
The "right thing to do" is the thing that works, if this method did not work it would have been dropped 1000 years ago.
While I agree with FQ that everyone carry a gun under contract to the DOD should be accountable under the UCMJ his most telling comment is his last line, " Its simply a matter of principle and it wouldn't change if Prince were all he claims to be. I don't want him or anyone else like him on the payroll.". It doesn't matter to FQ if this is effective, efficient, or a benefit to the operation, it offends his sensibilities so it's bad. What BS.
Its not my sensibilities that are offended. The fact is you took an oath. It wasn't the paycheck that motivated you. Compare how people in the private sector treat their jobs with those in the military, or law enforcement. There is a huge difference (yes there are exceptions on both sides). The bottom line though is that someone carrying a gun in my name and on my dime should be oath bound to this country, not a corporation, and should be accountable to our laws. There's nothing naive about, quite the contrary. War brings out our worst instincts. An oath to country and a sense of duty reinforced by military culture helps to mitigate them. Mercenaries lack both. Its not their fault, its just that being a shift supervisor for Macwar inc. is different from being a staff seargent in the US Marine Corps. and you know it.
FQ13
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The real kicker is that we cant torture...the solution? Have Blackwater, Triple Canopy, KBR, and even Britich companies like Aegis do rendition flights to third party countries (many believe ex KGB prisons in former soviet republics like Uzbekistan) and torture them there out of public scrutiny. I am not entirely opposed to this practice as the intel probably saved thousands of lives, but dont act like you aint doin it just cuz you are payin someone else to do the dirty work.
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Its not my sensibilities that are offended. The fact is you took an oath. It wasn't the paycheck that motivated you. Compare how people in the private sector treat their jobs with those in the military, or law enforcement. There is a huge difference (yes there are exceptions on both sides). The bottom line though is that someone carrying a gun in my name and on my dime should be oath bound to this country, not a corporation, and should be accountable to our laws. There's nothing naive about, quite the contrary. War brings out our worst instincts. An oath to country and a sense of duty reinforced by military culture helps to mitigate them. Mercenaries lack both. Its not their fault, its just that being a shift supervisor for Macwar inc. is different from being a staff seargent in the US Marine Corps. and you know it.
FQ13
The major reason for using "mercenaries" is that Democrats and their "Libertarian" allies have consistently cut the military budget and manpower levels, leaving us unprepared for every single war we have ever been pulled into. The only times Democrats have ever Built up the defense establishment was when FDR wanted to needlessly involve us in Britians war in Europe, and when Johnson wanted to enrich his pals in industry by.
Therefore we suffer a severe man power shortage that , since the Democrats are against defending America and will not expand the Services, requires out side contractors.
Say what you will about Bush, he found a way to solve problems caused by stupid people who refuse to learn the lessons of history.
The real kicker is that we cant torture...the solution? Have Blackwater, Triple Canopy, KBR, and even Britich companies like Aegis do rendition flights to third party countries (many believe ex KGB prisons in former soviet republics like Uzbekistan) and torture them there out of public scrutiny. I am not entirely opposed to this practice as the intel probably saved thousands of lives, but dont act like you aint doin it just cuz you are payin someone else to do the dirty work.
Most of the secret Prisons were in Eastern Europe, Poland, Rumania, Bulgaria, and some other countries. The "rendition" flights were some thing differant, in those cases we turned over non cooperating suspects to Arab countries WHO ALREADY HAD WARRANTS for the individuals, we do the same thing in Drug and Highjacking cases and no one minds.
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This is the first time I have looked at this thread....... Once I saw that it had gotten to 2 pages this quickly, I knew why before I even clicked on it........ Its just Quaker being Quaker.
You guys are going to need a bigger wall (http://www.smileyx.com/smilies/mad0228.gif)
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This is the first time I have looked at this thread....... Once I saw that it had gotten to 2 pages this quickly, I knew why before I even clicked on it........ Its just Quaker being Quaker.
You guys are going to need a bigger wall (http://www.smileyx.com/smilies/mad0228.gif)
Eric, I respect you, so I'm just going to ask a simple question. Are you comfortable with mercenaries or contractors if you prefer, operating with legal immunity in our name? Why or why not? Me I'm not and I've said why. The floor is yours.
FQ13
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Been reading this thread and as I knew that Erik Prince was the son of the founder of the Prince Corporation of Holland, MI the city in which I work. I know that the Prince family has done a lot for the community. I googled and found this. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erik_Prince Quite an interesting person.
I would not be surprised at all to learn some time that Prince, Blackwater, Xe, whatever is and has been preforming blackops for the CIA and whoever.
Reminds me of a statment a friend made to me years ago when we were discussing G Gordon Liddy. When the SHTF who do you want on your side. I for one will take the likes of Liddy or Prince. The other side can have the likes of Barney and Nancy.
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To quote George Orwell;
"We sleep safe in our beds, because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm."
Looking at the "charges" leveled against Prince, I have to say it looks like a corporate shakedown. No criminal charges have been filed, only annonomous CIVIL affadavites.
To quote Capt. Willard,"charging a person with murder here, is like handing out speeding tickets at the Indy 500". Wife swapping could only be illegal in a Muslim country and then only if you've got a particularly ugly wife. Child prostitution could be charged against anyone without substanciation. What's their name, when was it done, does this involve her/his testimony, and why aren't criminal charges involved? Child prostitution IS a federal crime. Smuggling weapons in dog food? Do you actually believe that a company that has the US government to grease the skids would smuggle guns in dog food?
The reason Blackwater changed their name was due to Bad Press. Bad Press is the kiss of death to any entity that is trying to sell a product, whether that product is hot dogs or armed counter insergents. Once the out of court settlements are arranged, you will hear nothing else of this story.
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The founders and leaders of Blackwater come from very impressive backgrounds. Taken from Wiki:
In the late 1990s, Erik Prince spent part of his inherited wealth to purchase about 6,000 acres (24 km2) of the Great Dismal Swamp, a vast swamp on the North Carolina/Virginia border, now mostly a National Wildlife Refuge. Here he created his state-of-the-art private training facility, and his contracting company—Blackwater—is named for the peat-colored water of the swamp.[17] Blackwater USA was formed in 1990 to provide training support to military and law enforcement organizations. In 2002 Blackwater Security Consulting (BSC) was formed. It was one of several private security firms employed following the U.S. invasion of Afghanistan. BSC is one of over 60 private security firms employed during the Iraq War to guard officials and installations, train Iraq's new army and police, and provide other support for occupation forces.[18] Blackwater was also hired during the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina by the United States Department of Homeland Security, as well as by private clients, including communications, petrochemical and insurance companies.[19] Overall, the company has received over $1 billion USD in government contracts.[20] Blackwater consists of nine divisions, and a subsidiary, Blackwater Vehicles.
Erik Prince, Blackwater founder. Xe is a privately held company and does not publish much information about internal affairs. Xe's founder and former CEO Erik Prince, a former Navy SEAL, attended the Naval Academy, graduated from Hillsdale College, and was an intern in George H. W. Bush's White House. Prince is a major financial supporter of Republican Party causes and candidates.[21] Xe's president, Gary Jackson, is also a former Navy SEAL.[22]
Cofer Black, the company's current vice chairman, was director of the CIA's Counterterrorist Center (CTC) at the time of the September 11 attacks in 2001. He was the United States Department of State coordinator for counterterrorism with the rank of ambassador at large from December 2002 to November 2004. After leaving public service, Black became chairman of the privately owned intelligence gathering company Total Intelligence Solutions, Inc., as well as vice chairman for Xe. Robert Richer was vice president of intelligence until January 2007, when he formed Total Intelligence Solutions. He was formerly the head of the CIA's Near East Division.[23][24] Black was senior advisor for counterterrorism and national security issues for the 2008 Presidential election bid of Mitt Romney.[25]
Xe's primary training facility, located on 7,000 acres (28 km2) in northeastern North Carolina, comprises several ranges: indoor, outdoor, urban reproductions; a man-made lake; and a driving track in Camden and Currituck counties. Company literature says that it is the largest training facility in the country. In November 2006 Blackwater USA announced it recently acquired an 80-acre (30 ha) facility 150 miles (240 km) west of Chicago in Mount Carroll, Illinois to be called Blackwater North. This facility is also known as "The Site". This Xe facility has been operational since April 2007 and serves law enforcement agencies throughout the Midwest. Xe is also trying to open an 824-acre (3.33 km2) training facility three miles north of Potrero, a small town in rural east San Diego County, California located 45 miles (72 km) east of San Diego, for military and law enforcement training
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Smear campaign.
It's a well known, well used and well worn tactic of liberal/communist/fascists. Works every time with the sheep.
Smear, discredit and replace with something unholy.
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The burning question on my mind is: How exactly is "Xe" pronounced? Oh, come on, I can't be the only one. ;D
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