The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: Badgersmilk on August 09, 2009, 03:44:33 AM
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I keep seeing and hearing about how our "legal tender" will soon be worthless. I dont doubt this, but what good will having a hundred pounds of gold under your bed do??? If our government collapses far enough that the dollar is worthless does your boss have gold to pay you with? Will your mortgage company be happy when you mail it to them? Will store owners be able to pay their suppliers with gold? Will a farmer trade his crops and livestock for gold coins? If the government collapses that far I'm just not seeing what is going to motivate me to trade a usefull product or service for a piece of soft, shiny metal?!? My wife says the idea is so when another government takes over you can trade your gold for their currancy. I'm thinking such a take over wouldnt transact very smooth or quickly (several months of ? anyway).
Will practical items such as ammunition, firearms, food, toilet paper be our national currancy? WILL it be gold? Will it be Yen, or Euro's IMMEDIATELY after the fall of the dollar? ??? ??? ???
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Given the price lead jumped to over the last couple years I would stock pile that, 1) its worth money even as scrap 2) can be fashioned into bullets. 3) protects against radiation and finally its cheaper to accumulate than gold!
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Well, considering alot of the gold is locked up by the government, if it stays that way, gold may be out of the question for wide spread currency. Funny how that works out, another example of government control veiled as progress. Perhaps material goods as you suggested, or communities may decide to try to issue their own currency, although it would be useless and only backed up by the promises of the locals to honor it. Let's be honest though, if that situation went down, the places that need a solution the most, cities, would have nothing to barter or traded, and would tear themselves apart in weeks.
I'd say practical items as you suggested, food, equipment, services, fuel. Having a stock pile of gold to trade wouldn't help you through the transition period if no one takes it. Why would I sell you a rifle and a couple hundred rounds for some shiny stuff that won't help me survive.
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Gold, silver, land...something real will carry value over from one economic tender to the next. Paper is paper, when one bill is no longer good it's only use, one poorly suited for, is toilet paper. You definitely need food and other items to get you through turmoil, but to carry value from one side to another side you need something other than food, meds, etc....there will be another day and when it comes you want to have carried your sweat equity across the divide into the new economic pay system. Except in case of two or three EMP events; you will need enough food, water and meds for a year to make it across....but, eventually the gold and silver will have value again and especially for international trade after an EMP event as there won't be nearly so many of us left around after one.
Gold...get silver. 1964 and earlier ninety percent US coins. A couple of silver dimes have enough value so that they will still buy a loaf of bread like they used to when I was a child. Silver coins are recognizable, gold not so much. Also...if you are going to buy a couple of bags of groceries how are you going to make change...another reason for lesser value that silver provides. Some gold yes, but silver for day to day. All fiat currencies that have been around a while have fallen.
In Austria right after WWII to get it's currency under control, the government announced that for every 1200 or so marks each man woman and child could redeem those marks for 100 new marks. So, a family of 5 new on Monday or thereabouts had to go the bank on Thursday only to exchange money, Friday was too late. So, those 5 family members brought in 6,000 marks and got 500 new more valueable marks for them. Only problem, the people who had 10,000 or 100,000 or 1,000,000 or more marks still were only able to exchange 1200 for 100. Period. This example is similar to other historical currency exchanges and there is no reason to doubt history will repeat itself since all the same old mistakes are being made so obviously the same medicine will be applied. Wealth confiscation by the government to offset political greed and stupidity.
Paper currency is cheap and easy to call back. but even the current coinage will have more value in another economic tender system. Number in accounts and paper are easy for the governments to confiscate and change over...coins are too hard to handle and to costly to reproduce cheaply and easily for an "overnight" exchange like in Austria...far too much effort. Coins go over, and I have not seen an exception, at par value. That is to say in Austria that family that had 500 marks after turning in 6,000 marks would have been smart to have bee keeping their change and turning their marks into change for the months leading up to the swap...6,000 in coinage in marks would have been worth 6,000 of the new marks in the new economic tender, ergo they kept it's value.
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Well, considering alot of the gold is locked up by the government, if it stays that way, gold may be out of the question for wide spread currency. Funny how that works out, another example of government control veiled as progress. Perhaps material goods as you suggested, or communities may decide to try to issue their own currency, although it would be useless and only backed up by the promises of the locals to honor it. Let's be honest though, if that situation went down, the places that need a solution the most, cities, would have nothing to barter or traded, and would tear themselves apart in weeks.
I'd say practical items as you suggested, food, equipment, services, fuel. Having a stock pile of gold to trade wouldn't help you through the transition period if no one takes it. Why would I sell you a rifle and a couple hundred rounds for some shiny stuff that won't help me survive.
Thats what I cant get out of my head! Why in the world do I want a pretty paper weight more than my food, cloths, guns, property, whatever?!?! ???
Long term... NO DOUBT IN MY MIND IT"LL EVENTUALLY BE THIS!
http://www.chinahighlights.com/travelguide/money.htm
Notice they have only two coins (along the lines of what Rastus says).
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"Jiao notes and coins can be useful is you want to drop small change into a beggar's bowl".
Isnt it nice the Chinese guy who wrote this is already considering the state bama will lead the US citizens to ("beggar's")?
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Well, considering alot of the gold is locked up by the government, if it stays that way, gold may be out of the question for wide spread currency. ..........
Maybe a lot but for sure not nearly all. Much of what was in store has been used to pay other countries with. There is or was a deal for foreign countries where they took our dollars to redeem them in gold. Gold flew out of the government vaults like nobody's business in the 60's. The US got off the gold standard. A lot of that gold you are talking about went overseas or is locked up in the Federal Reserve...a corporation owned by a lot of foreigners.
You need what you need to live, but to carry the fruits of your hard earned labor from one economic tender to another the centuries old practice of using gold and silver will still work...the government and economists have talked people into believing that faith in a currency is what matters and it does...just like the age old faith in gold and silver. After about a month and a half in all fallen economies based upon the fallen (faith disappeared) fiat paper currency people again learn the value of gold and silver...it will be no different for us.
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To Badger's original point, hyperinflation seems to be on the horizon. Most of those I've read on this seem to think it will start in 2010 before mid-year. Now is the time to prep, especially concerning food, which is still relatively inexpensive to acquire.
Gold and silver have been valuables for millenia, no reason to expect it to stop. Rastus is right on in looking to pre-1964 silver BTW. Find a local dealer who will agree to work with you. One approach is to look at getting a deal for volume that recognizes that coins that old are worn, and thus may still be 90% silver, just that there is less silver than in a newly minted coin.
However, for day-to-day survival, other things will rise up to be key barter items. And since it is barter, the key items will be local or regional. It may be gasoline, or medicines, or even essentials like salt. Unfortunately, I'm not sure there is any sure-proof way to predict what, but the good news is that the key items will most likely change over time as well.
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I'm not suggesting stocking up for barter. If I were to though, the key is stuff that is desirable and will last. Also things that are cheap now, but are imported and quiclky become hard to find or too expensive to afford. Vacum sealed coffee, portable water filters, diapers, tampons, ammo, hand tools, duct tape, camp stoves, bug spray (if you live in FL) 1st aide, batteries can openers kitchen tools, tarps, condoms, ciggarettes etc.
FQ13
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First off there is NO gold in Fort Knox. The US Govt. has not held a gold reserve since the early 70's when they auctioned off what they had been holding to secure foreign debt. That is why our present currency is called "Fiat money it is unconstitutionally issued with out being backed by gold or silver.
As for use after the coming economic collapse silver will be more useful for trade purposes than gold as few will be able to make change, the primary value of gold will be to preserve wealth in movable form.
Another reason for using gold and silver instead of other trade goods is that when a Govt. tries to reestablish it's economic structure which is needed to draw the foreign investments that drive industry the first thing they do is set up some form of taxation to finance the govt.'s Constitutionally mandated functions, the second thing they do is require that those taxes be paid in coin rather than goods in order to get money circulating which in turn allows banks to loan for new businesses and pay off foreign lenders. This was one of the driving forces behind replacing the Articles of Confederation with our Constitution.
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The transition to Euro's went fairly smooth for many countries. The press didnt voice TO much conflict over it anyway. :-\
If I were to GUESS, I'd say China has to much at stake to let us fall into a barter system for any amount of time at all. American people will resist a Chinese currancy, so I'd say China, Europe, and the most of the rest of the world will change over to a new "universal currancy" very quickly at the first sign of the dollar getting that weak. Remember, we arent the only ones in a pickle here. Other countries will be in the same boat and their governments will invite this change to. 2010 does sound like a good prediction from my seat to.
I know I should be in church right now (long story), but hmmmm. Wasn't this "universal currancy" thing mentioned in the bible at some point to?
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Remember, we DID have a universal currency for most of history, GOLD. It was exchanged based on weight of the coin. It didn't matter whose face was on the front.
FQ13
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The transition to Euro's went fairly smooth for many countries. The press didnt voice TO much conflict over it anyway. :-\
If I were to GUESS, I'd say China has to much at stake to let us fall into a barter system for any amount of time at all. American people will resist a Chinese currancy, so I'd say China, Europe, and the most of the rest of the world will change over to a new "universal currancy" very quickly at the first sign of the dollar getting that weak. Remember, we arent the only ones in a pickle here. Other countries will be in the same boat and their governments will invite this change to. 2010 does sound like a good prediction from my seat to.
I know I should be in church right now (long story), but hmmmm. Wasn't this "universal currancy" thing mentioned in the bible at some point to?
Don't put to much faith in China keeping us afloat, they have their own problems and have been looking to unload some of their T bills. The Porkulus may have been the last we'll get from them.
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(http://us.st12.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/choconet1_2043_1914691)
"You receive approximately 325 coins in each case." $69.00
OK, there may be chocolate inside. ;)
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I dont think China is in a position to help us. I'm afraid their in a position to control us!
Somebody is at the Obama wheel. He's just a puppet with somebody elses hand up his butt.
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I dont think China is in a position to help us. I'm afraid their in a position to control us!
Somebody is at the Obama wheel. He's just a puppet with somebody elses hand up his butt.
George Soros and his UN cronies
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I dont think China is in a position to help us. I'm afraid their in a position to control us!
Somebody is at the Obama wheel. He's just a puppet with somebody elses hand up his butt.
China is biding their time, cashing out our debt and buying gold on the world market like there is no tomorrow. They do not want to be stuck with US debt when the SHTF. So yeah, for now, they will continue to back us and dance to our tune, sort of.
Once the economic SHTF, look for China to replace the US as the dominant power (some Chinese have already said the US should be selling their T-bills and bonds in yuen), with Russia taking over for Great Britain as their backup team, with India and Brazil stepping up with their economies. The so-called BRIC alignment.
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Since no one can predict the future, it is good to cover as many bases as possible.