The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Politics & RKBA => Topic started by: TAB on August 13, 2009, 03:23:10 AM
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Every single "healthcare reform" bill I've seen has some type of limited liability for the doctor in it.
I really have to ask why, should a doctor be treated differently from anyone else?
Lets take two professionals one a surgeon, the other a contractor (gee I wonder who those could be ;) )
Lets just say the surgeon cuts off some ones leg by mistake (for what ever reason).
Lets just say the contractor builds a house that falls down, the result being the loss of a leg.
Both screwed up very badly, the result was the same. Can some one please explain to me why the doctor should have a liability cap and the contractor should not? If we are going to cap doctors liability, why not other professions? Or should we just cap every ones liability...(rhetorical)
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Doctors, lawyers and accountants have better, more powerful lobbies than do contractors. Therefore they
buy get more protection from the kongress kritters.
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Every single "healthcare reform" bill I've seen has some type of limited liability for the doctor in it.
I really have to ask why, should a doctor be treated differently from anyone else?
Lets take two professionals one a surgeon, the other a contractor (gee I wonder who those could be ;) )
Lets just say the surgeon cuts off some ones leg by mistake (for what ever reason).
Lets just say the contractor builds a house that falls down, the result being the loss of a leg.
Both screwed up very badly, the result was the same. Can some one please explain to me why the doctor should have a liability cap and the contractor should not? If we are going to cap doctors liability, why not other professions? Or should we just cap every ones liability...(rhetorical)
One question for you, TAB. To what extent do the premiums for your malpractice insurance affect the cost of the services that you provide?
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One question for you, TAB. To what extent do the premiums for your malpractice insurance affect the cost of the services that you provide?
my liabilty ins is $47 and change a day so if I'm there for a week thats $250 more your paying. Figure it in creases your cost 10-25%
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One question for you, TAB. To what extent do the premiums for your malpractice insurance affect the cost of the services that you provide?
That is a good question. My doctor goes naked. (Unfortunately not litterally as she's pretty cute). There is a large sign (required by law) informing you that she has no malpractice insurance when you walk in. She simply can't afford it being relatively young and in a 2 doctor practice. She's good, cheap and I can get answers from her and her staff easily so I don't care. It is an example though of the fact that its not lawyers that are the problem. After all its juries that set damage amounts. The number (per capita) of malpractice suits have remained relatively constant. Yet insurance rates have more than tripled. Gee, who's getting the money? Full disclosure: as a Floridian who lives on the coast I am not a huge fan of the isurance industry.
FQ13
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damages should be high.
lets use my example, if I were to lose a leg, I would not be able to work, even after years of rehab, I would never be at the same level I am at now. You should pay for the loss of production over my life time. assuming I have atleast 30 more years of work ahead of me. 10% loss in production =10% loss in profit x 30 years = $$$$$$$
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damages should be high.
lets use my example, if I were to lose a leg, I would not be able to work, even after years of rehab, I would never be at the same level I am at now. You should pay for the loss of production over my life time. assuming I have atleast 30 more years of work ahead of me. 10% loss in production =10% loss in profit x 30 years = $$$$$$$
Let's say yer making 150,000 a year. 10% is 15,000 x 30 = 450,000. While that is a lot of cash it is no where near the millions that are paid today.
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thats true, but medical/ rehab bills are $$$$ your going to pay for that. artifical limbs are also $$$$$ 20k for a leg is very common. if you need one ever 2 years for life
it can get into the millions very fast, the 10s of millions is a load of crap.
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Well, I got ran over by an asshole, nearly killed by an asshole doctor, infected by another asshole doctor and misdiagnosed by an idiot phlebotomist (not an asshole, actually kind of cute ;D) who thought I had a heart infection!
I sued the driver and won 25K....managed to keep 8K of that. According to my lawyer, because of the forms they make you sign, I couldn't sue the doctors or the hospital for a cent of the nearly 650K that my insurance company paid to keep me alive or any of the asshole doctors for nearly killing me, several times....!
Now, I'm not the type to wipe someone out because they made a mistake, but it sure would have been nice to actually afford my own physical therapist instead of quiting therapy because it was costing me about 500 bucks every month to continue...
Insurance companies suck, some doctors suck and lawyers suck the most! I hope that none of you ever have to go through what I did. Did I say suck enough? ;D
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Let's say yer making 150,000 a year. 10% is 15,000 x 30 = 450,000. While that is a lot of cash it is no where near the millions that are paid today.
Haz
Remember that what TAB is talking about (even with his addendmus) is just compensatory damges. Lost wages, med bills, artificial legs, maybe a car service for life since he might not be able to drive etc. Remember though, he lost his freaking leg because some nimrod screwed up! Some amount of punitive damage is in order if it was not simply an honest mistake that anyone could make. If it was due to negligence or incompetance more should be required just to pay for the very real emotional distress of being crippled for life and having to rely on a machine to walk to the bathroom.
FQ13
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Haz
Remember that what TAB is talking about (even with his addendmus) is just compensatory damges. Lost wages, med bills, artificial legs, maybe a car service for life since he might not be able to drive etc. Remember though, he lost his freaking leg because some nimrod screwed up! Some amount of punitive damage is in order if it was not simply an honest mistake that anyone could make. If it was due to negligence or incompetance more should be required just to pay for the very real emotional distress of being crippled for life and having to rely on a machine to walk to the bathroom.
FQ13
While all of that may be true, there is no denying that juries are out of their freaking minds.
2 examples, The dumb bitch that put her coffee between her legs then sued Dunkin Donuts because it burned her crotch when it spilled, she got millions for being a dipshit.
2) Lady is in a store browsing, trips over a kid who is running around unattended like a little animal, and hurt her leg, back and arm, she was awarded several hundred thousand dollars, want to hear the kicker ?
It was HER kid.
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Haz
Remember that what TAB is talking about (even with his addendmus) is just compensatory damges. Lost wages, med bills, artificial legs, maybe a car service for life since he might not be able to drive etc. Remember though, he lost his freaking leg because some nimrod screwed up! Some amount of punitive damage is in order if it was not simply an honest mistake that anyone could make. If it was due to negligence or incompetance more should be required just to pay for the very real emotional distress of being crippled for life and having to rely on a machine to walk to the bathroom.
FQ13
FQ,
I agree that it would be more than the number I gave BUT the numbers we see (10s of millions) is ridiculous. I also agree that the Dr shouldn't walk but then again lets get real.
Look at Timothy, in a car crash he gets nada. And of course the insurance companies did squat. As far as the paperwork he signed maybe THAT needs looked at (and explained better when signing).
In any case tort reform is needed.
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While all of that may be true, there is no denying that juries are out of their freaking minds.
2 examples, The dumb bitch that put her coffee between her legs then sued Dunkin Donuts because it burned her crotch when it spilled, she got millions for being a dipshit.
A judge later overruled the settlement on the coffee lady. I think it was reduced to about 750K, still rediculous but better than the original!
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Look at Timothy, in a car crash he gets nada. And of course the insurance companies did squat. As far as the paperwork he signed maybe THAT needs looked at (and explained better when signing).
I have a form I signed on August 7th, 2006, about 24 hours after my accident. It IS my signature but since I was in a drug induced coma with a severe concussion and barely alive, I have no recollectioin of signing that waiver! Actually, I have a box of documents I don't remember signing during the 70 days of incarceration!
Did I say Providence Hospital SUCKS?
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I have a form I signed on August 7th, 2006, about 24 hours after my accident. It IS my signature but since I was in a drug induced coma with a severe concussion and barely alive, I have no recollectioin of signing that waiver! Actually, I have a box of documents I don't remember signing during the 70 days of incarceration!
Did I say Providence Hospital SUCKS?
In most states that is not a legally binding document because you were under the influence of drugs.
I also feel your pain.....the girl that hit me had the state required minimum of 25k liability.......and didn't have a pot to piss in so a lawsuit was useless. My health insurance found a third party loophole and bailed on my bills.....leaving me owing a ton...but hey, I'm alive and that's what's important.
I have a friend, that I met when he came to visit me in the hospital to talk about prosthetics. He lost his right leg above the knee due to an incompetent doctor who made a wrong diagnosis and rushed him into emergency surgery for what he thought was a blood clot. He sued and won (rightfully so, IMO), but I don't know what he won...not my business.
I know my own ortho doc pays 300k+ per year in malpractice insurance. He half-jokingly say's he has to design, patent, and sell a new surgical instrument every year just to pay it (he actually has a dozen patents already).
There's no easy answer to the problem........ doctors need and should be held accountable and responsible for their actions, but at what cost? I personally know two doctors (good ones too) who moved their business out of state because OB/GYN insurance went so high they couldn't pay it. I know another doctor that quit practicing altogether and started teaching because of the same thing.
I don't know.......I'm on medication and rambling again.
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Actually Peg you touched on the point I was trying to make earlier. (sorry for the delay, was actually WORKING)
I have a good friend who is a general surgeon, one of the best in the business, ZERO malpractice claims, etc. This poor bastard pays more for malpractice premiums in a month than the wife and I make in a year. That's gotta be passed on in cost of service.
As somebody said earlier, the first step to controlling healthcare costs needs to be tort reform. And TAB, before you come unglued on me about that, I agree with you that if you screw up you are responsible. But perhaps tort reform might be a way for the malpractice companies to weed out some of the dipshit, shoddy practitioners, cancel their friggin malpractice insurance and make sure that the doctors that are left are competent to take care of those that need them.
I know, I know............I'm rambling. Time to go to lunch.
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Maybe tort reform will find a way to weed out the chiselers as well, There was a case a few years ago in Boston, 4 people in a car rear ended a bus with 6 passengers, 26 people won disability law suits in that case.
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Actually Peg you touched on the point I was trying to make earlier. (sorry for the delay, was actually WORKING)
I have a good friend who is a general surgeon, one of the best in the business, ZERO malpractice claims, etc. This poor bastard pays more for malpractice premiums in a month than the wife and I make in a year. That's gotta be passed on in cost of service.
As somebody said earlier, the first step to controlling healthcare costs needs to be tort reform. And TAB, before you come unglued on me about that, I agree with you that if you screw up you are responsible. But perhaps tort reform might be a way for the malpractice companies to weed out some of the dipshit, shoddy practitioners, cancel their friggin malpractice insurance and make sure that the doctors that are left are competent to take care of those that need them.
I know, I know............I'm rambling. Time to go to lunch.
LUNCH!? Hell it's beer-thirty here (OK it's actually 3:15 but I keep my yard arm WAAAAYY up high on the fore mast ;) ) ;D
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Actually Peg you touched on the point I was trying to make earlier. (sorry for the delay, was actually WORKING)
I have a good friend who is a general surgeon, one of the best in the business, ZERO malpractice claims, etc. This poor bastard pays more for malpractice premiums in a month than the wife and I make in a year. That's gotta be passed on in cost of service.
As somebody said earlier, the first step to controlling healthcare costs needs to be tort reform. And TAB, before you come unglued on me about that, I agree with you that if you screw up you are responsible. But perhaps tort reform might be a way for the malpractice companies to weed out some of the dipshit, shoddy practitioners, cancel their friggin malpractice insurance and make sure that the doctors that are left are competent to take care of those that need them.
I know, I know............I'm rambling. Time to go to lunch.
the point of this thread is, why should doctors get a break and every one else does not? Its funny, my wife was all for reform, until we had this convo( lasted about 2 hours) now she is still for the reform, but thingks its messed up that she gets diffrent treatment for a scrap of paper on the wall.
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Maybe tort reform will find a way to weed out the chiselers as well, There was a case a few years ago in Boston, 4 people in a car rear ended a bus with 6 passengers, 26 people won disability law suits in that case.
That's also a point I was going to make too, just got to rambling and forgot.
It goes both ways. There needs to be limits and controls on both sides of the fence........and a little bit of common sense would go a long way too.
the point of this thread is, why should doctors get a break and every one else does not? Its funny, my wife was all for reform, until we had this convo( lasted about 2 hours) now she is still for the reform, but thingks its messed up that she gets diffrent treatment for a scrap of paper on the wall.
And you do make a good point, TAB.....when the end result is the same, why the big difference in costs.
I don't have an easy answer.
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Actually tort reform is exactly the wrong place to start. The lawyers are not the problem. Its greedy insurance companies and bad doctors. Let me explain. Full disclosure: this is based on a few articles I read in public policy journals more than a decade ago to prep a lecture for a Con law class so I have neither cites not current info. Still, it is what it is.
The problem is this, less than 15% of doctors accumulate the vast majority of suits. In some cases its due to their specialty, like OB/GYN which generates a lot of suits as stuff happens and no one wants to here that. In others though, its the same doctors getting sued over and over again. Yet the insurance companies don't drop them. Why? Because its more profitable to raise EVERY doctors bills by sayng we paid out x millions in insurance last year. They get it past state insurance commissions this way. Bad doctors are good for business. Its the same type of reasoning that Ford execs got on caught on tape with, saying it was cheaper to pay death claims then recall the Pinto. The medical community is equally to blame. They don't police their own and no one else is qualified to. Who of us can tell an honest mistake from an act of negligence except in the most extreme cases? Lawyers, whatever their faults, do a pretty good job of this. The Bar Ethics counsel is a serious and scary thing. Lawyers are routinely fined, suspended and disbarred. The AMA doesn't come close. The tend to circle the wagons around their own. Thus the problem docs stay employed, we suffer and the insurance companies get fat.
FQ13
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I also feel your pain.....the girl that hit me had the state required minimum of 25k liability.......and didn't have a pot to piss in so a lawsuit was useless. My health insurance found a third party loophole and bailed on my bills.....leaving me owing a ton...but hey, I'm alive and that's what's important.
Once again Chuck, you bring me back to reality.... I suppose I sounded a little bitter earlier but my troubles pale in comparison to some.
My employers insurance carrier treated me very well and went out of their way to find ways to cover 98% of my medical costs but they also took a third of my settlement. I just managed to pay off the last bit this year. The Auto insurance was a "bucket of suck" and like Peg, they guy only had the state minimum for RI. I keep a million dollar rider on mine now so that if I ever hit someone, THEY will make out better than I did! Nice guy huh? Any of you that still ride, make sure your policy has "Personal Injury Protection Insurance" (PIP) which covers the rider, otherwise your left to the same thing Chuck and I went through....
One little thing that got me through.......every check I wrote to the Surgeons office for services rendered, I wrote "Bite ME! or some other such rude comment on the memo line! Just a little payback for the pain and suffering! My wife still give's me grief about that! ;D
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRvtWEG_vhQ&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fboortz%2Ecom%2Fnealz%5Fnuze%2F2009%2F08%2Fok%2Dnow%2Ddont%2Dgo%2Daway%2Dyet%2Ehtml&feature=player_embedded
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One little thing that got me through.......every check I wrote to the Surgeons office for services rendered, I wrote "Bite ME! or some other such rude comment on the memo line! Just a little payback for the pain and suffering! My wife still give's me grief about that!
I will remember that one. That's good. ;D
As a note, guys, please don't think that I am trying to 'one-up' anybody by talking about my own experiences. I don't want anyone to think I had it worse than someone else.....just different. I guess it could be misconstrued as that by some the way it reads in print.
We've all went through tough times at some point. I just hope some folks can learn from others past experiences, whether good or bad.
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Why are doctors getting a break? So they will love Big Brother. Big Brother needs his doctors right now so they are his friend.
Big Brother needs them on his side so they will support his socialization of our nation.
Yes TAB, it is wrong. Since everyone wants some type of socialization, it makes sense that since lawyers are technicians of the law they should be restricted from making unlimited amounts of money in aggregate if they are licensed practitioners of the law who are able to create laws to benefit themselves...which they do. That's some really nice offices, cars, homes, vacations and toys they have....let's tax the lawyers...50% over 200k, 99 percent over 250k, 110 percent over 300k and their three year average income cannot be over 150 k or they must pay a 100k penalty...tax the money from all sources no deductions allowed. So much for ambulance chasers and fancy congressman....now they must do something productive or hold their hand out for welfare, either will work.