The Down Range Forum
Member Section => Down Range Cafe => Topic started by: Wheelgun Dunn on August 19, 2009, 09:44:18 AM
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Would some manufacturer out there please produce a rifle and revolver in 5mm Remington magnum rimfire? PLEASE? :'(I would like to shoot this cartridge, I'm sure Centurion would like us to as well. Taurus, Savage and CZ said they would but nothing yet. Anyday now guys! (And no I don't work for Aguila/Centurion ;))
On a lighter note does anyone have any experience with this cartridge?
Frustrated,
Wheelgun
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Wheelgun
My question is why? Do we need another small caliber high velocity round? Particularly an obscure, thus expensive one? I speak in ignorance here, and this is a question not a critique. What will this do that a .22 mag rimfire or a .38 +p won't? I'd like to know as I haven't heard of this caliber.
FQ13
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Flat shooter, higher velocity and energy than either 22 WMR or 17 HMR.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5_mm_Remington_Rimfire_Magnum
The 5 mm Remington Rimfire Magnum is an obsolete bottlenecked rimfire cartridge introduced by Remington Arms Company in 1970. Remington chambered it in a pair of bolt-action rifles, the Model 591 and Model 592, but the round never became very popular, and the rifles were discontinued in 1974. The ammo discontinued in 1982.[2] About 52,000 rifles were sold during its brief production run.[3] As of 2008, Aguila, a Mexican ammunition company, is producing 5mm Remington Magnum ammunition.[4]
Remington designed a new case that was very similar to the older .22 Mag, but stronger to handle the higher pressure of the 5 mm at 33,000 PSI.[5] It uses a 5mm (.20 caliber) bullet that measure 0.2045 inches (5.19 mm), the same as the more recent .204 Ruger cartridge.
For a brief time, Thompson Center Arms offered firearms in 5 mm Mag.[3] From 1982 until 2008, no ammunition manufacturers manufactured rounds for this cartridge, but some firearms manufacturers are creating conversion kits to allow the existing 5 mm guns to shoot other more-common cartridges.[3]
At the 2008 SHOT show, Taurus International introduced the first handgun chambered for the 5mm Remington Magnum rimfire.[6] Concurrent with the announcement from Taurus, Aguila Ammunition announced they would begin producing 5mm RMR ammunition in 2008.
The 5 mm Mag offered higher velocity than the .22 WMR and more energy than either the .22 WMR or the later .17 HMR.[2] They offered decent performance on small-game and for varmint hunting.[1]
Follow the link for cartridge dimensions.
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The 5mm Remington Rimfire Magnum
By Chuck Hawks
The 5mm Remington Rimfire Magnum was based on an entirely new case designed, I believe, in 1969. It resembled a .22 WMR case necked-down to accept 5mm/.20 caliber bullets, but was dimensionally unique. The 5mm Rem. Mag. had a rim diameter of .325", rim thickness of .05", base diameter of .259", shoulder diameter of .259", and neck diameter of .225". Case length was 1.02" and actual bullet diameter was .2045". Factory ballistics called for a 38 grain JHP bullet at a MV of 2100 fps from a rifle barrel, making it the fastest rimfire cartridge in the world at the time.
It was introduced in 1970 in a pair of Remington bolt action rifles, the Models 591 (clip magazine) and 592 (tubular magazine) to a shooting world that could not have been less interested, and it became the shortest lived cartridge introduced since the end of WW II. The Remington 5mm rifles lasted only 5 years (1970-1974), and the cartridge quietly disappeared from the loading list a few years later.
Thompson/Center briefly offered their Contender pistol in 5mm. As far as I know there were no other firearms chambered for the 5mm Magnum, and no other ammunition manufacturer offered the cartridge.
None of that seemed strange to me at the time, as I had predicted the 5mm's demise as soon as I heard about it. The .22 WMR was then loaded with a 40 grain JHP bullet at a MV of 2000 fps. 100 fps more velocity did not seem worth the trade-off of a smaller diameter, lighter bullet, particularly in the case of a weird caliber such as .20, for which there was no previous demand and no accessories.
Today, however, the run away success of the .17 HMR makes me wonder. After all, it is also a sub-.22 caliber rimfire magnum cartridge. Maybe the 5mm Remington Magnum was just misunderstood, a cartridge ahead of its time. Remington has something of a history in that regard. Evidence the centerfire .350 and 6.5mm short magnums (35 years ahead of their time), and .17 Remington (30 years ahead of its time).
The 5mm Rimfire offered more energy down range than the .22 WMR or the later .17 HMR (217 ft. lbs. for the 5mm vs. 170 ft. lbs. for the .22 WMR and 136 ft. lbs. for the .17 HMR at 100 yards). Its smaller diameter bullet was superior in ballistic coefficient and sectional density to the 40 grain .22 WMR bullet and that, plus its increased velocity, gave it a flatter trajectory and about a 25 yard advantage in effective range over the .22 Mag. During its brief life the 5mm Magnum developed a reputation as an effective and deadly varmint cartridge.
For those that own 5mm Rem. Rimfire Mag. rifles, all is not quite lost. Centurion Ordinance has recently announced a new factory load for the 5mm. This uses a 30 grain JHP varmint bullet at a MV of 2300 fps with 352 ft. lbs. of muzzle energy. You can read about it at www.aguilaammo.com
I have never owned or tested a 5mm Remington rifle, but now I wish that I had. The .17 HMR has made me revise my opinion about the capability and usefulness of sub-.22 caliber cartridges, and the 5mm Remington Rimfire Magnum was sort of the conceptual Granddaddy of the .17 HMR
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Nice post Tom. Still pretty sure that I wouldn't prefer .223 for varmints though.
FQ13
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Nice post Tom. Still pretty sure that I wouldn't prefer .223 for varmints though.
FQ13
Me to. I've shot a 17 10/22 and was not impressed. If I want to shoot something that small I'll use my pellet rifle and save money on Ammo.
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I'm just a nut I guess. I like shooting rimfires and if the gun companies harbored the philosophy of "well I don't want to make that because we already have so and so..." Then we would not have a lot of cartridges we have today! Anyway rimfires are nice, usually cheaper and do really well on small game in areas with some population w/o aggravating all those around. Anyway I like "testing" them myself, I just wish someone would hurry up about it. A friend of mine is a dealer and has had the Taurus on his "wish list" with his distributors for a long time with no luck or even hope in sight. Now that Remington owns H&R/NEF maybe they could make a barrel for the sporster in 5mm Mag.
Mr. Bane, our beloved leader, The one and only Major Domo, author extraordinaire, climber of mountains, diver of caves, could you maybe help with this? Perhaps just a professional inquiry?
Thanks to tombogan and hazcat for the extra info! Appreciate it!
Wheelgun
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I'm just a nut I guess. I like shooting rimfires and if the gun companies harbored the philosophy of "well I don't want to make that because we already have so and so..." Then we would not have a lot of cartridges we have today! Anyway rimfires are nice, usually cheaper and do really well on small game in areas with some population w/o aggravating all those around. Anyway I like "testing" them myself, I just wish someone would hurry up about it. A friend of mine is a dealer and has had the Taurus on his "wish list" with his distributors for a long time with no luck or even hope in sight. Now that Remington owns H&R/NEF maybe they could make a barrel for the sporster in 5mm Mag.
Mr. Bane, our beloved leader, The one and only Major Domo, author extraordinaire, climber of mountains, diver of caves, could you maybe help with this? Perhaps just a professional inquiry?
Thanks to tombogan and hazcat for the extra info! Appreciate it!
Wheelgun
Glad it was a help, I'm just not a fan of sub .22 calibers. Personal prejudice. ;D
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my 17 rem would change your mind. 4000 fps is never a bad thing.
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Two problems with 5mm
One was its price point. There was never enough demand to drive the price down and for less money you could be shooting .223. If you reload then the cost of the 5mm was higher than any number of .22's. Currently the new Centurian 5mm is running from $0.32-0.34 per round while .223s are down around $0.26/ea.
The other problem was bullet design. Until CCI's V-Max the .22 family were just slugs. The older 5mm offered some improvement. One could hope that CCI and others would introduce a better ogive. This is where the .17rimfires shine in a) a non-rebated base and b) in more aerodynamic design. But, you pay more for a CCI .22WMR V-Max than you do for a .223.
I really like the .17M2 as a replacement for the .22lr. (I know nothing will ever displace the .22lr) I'm stocking up on the .17M2 ammo when I can. The .22WMR, 17HMR and 5mm are just not worth it. I have a lightweight Savage 25 and I reload the .223 for a whole lot less and with a whole lot more performance than any rimfire.
My 2 cents and hardly worth it at that
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Alf,
All good points and true, but I love rimfires! Like I said I'm a little crazy I guess. I have two .22 hornets and can reload those. I guess I just want to try it out. I'm one of those guys you know? Even with some guns I buy 'em, shoot 'em then sell 'em sometimes just for the experience. I always have my favs though. Anyway just want to try one, who knows. Thanks for all the feedback!
Wheelgun
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Anyway just want to try one, who knows.
Cool Weelgun. I've done the same. Had a .22WMR for 3 months and a 5mm Rem for even less. That was way back, when they were first out. Interesting in that in both cases, that's what was happening with these particular guns. Everyone who owned them was just trying out the calibers and passing those guns around. Early '70s, I think I paid a handsome sum of $40 for each and sold each for the same.
I still have the urge to do just that, but I'm too tightwad and too picky now that I'm older. I only buy into something after lots of research and I'm fairly sure I'm going to keep it.
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Well finally got tired of trying to figure out if Taurus, CZ or someone had a 5mm or was coming out with one so I got on Gunbroker and found two for auction! Discovered over the last 90 days like three more had been auctioned off! Anyway, chose one, bid on it and won! Waiting to get it now. Remington Model 591. I am excited to try this rig. Maybe I won't like it but I have to try it out. Found three articles in gun mag archives written when the guns originally came out. (Gun writing has changed a little since then.) Biggest problem was the trigger pull is apparently atrocious! Guess I will find out. Look for range report in the coming weeks. Hopefully I can get it by labor day weekend and can set it up and shoot it then. I've got another "Old Faithful" Weaver K4 fixed 4 power scope on the way to top it with. I love these scopes, have one on all my rimfires except my two .17s. Can't wait!
Wheelgun
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Out standing ! Just because it's not MY thing doesn't make me any less pleased to hear when some one else scores something they have been lusting over ;D
Looking forward to the range report and obligatory porn ;D
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Very cool Wheelgun. I'm glad you found one. When you have a itch, you just got to scratch it and you had an itch to play with 5mm. I think as you said, trigger is one of the weakest points in those older guns.
Have fun.
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Congrats Wheelgun.
I'm also looking forward to a range report and some porn. ;D
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Would some manufacturer out there please produce a rifle and revolver in 5mm Remington magnum rimfire? PLEASE? :'(I would like to shoot this cartridge, I'm sure Centurion would like us to as well. Taurus, Savage and CZ said they would but nothing yet. Anyday now guys! (And no I don't work for Aguila/Centurion ;))
On a lighter note does anyone have any experience with this cartridge?
Frustrated,
wheelgun
I purchased a TC G2 Contender Carbine in 5mm Rem. Mag in May 2009. I mounted a Nikon 3-9 Prostaff on it. It shoots the Centurion ammo much more accurate than my old Rem. 591. The G2 comes in a heavy barrel and is a real tack driver.